What Books Are We Reading?

[Philly Q]

 :lol:

[dave_mc]

I'm not so sure, PQ - I think that religion is a handy excuse, easy to categorise into good and bad, black and white, us and them (...and after all, we're only ordinary men... etc).  However, I think that MOST conflicts that we categorise as "religious" actually boil down land, poverty and oppression.  

Religion is a handy tag to use, but it's far less of a driver than hungry people.

(that's people who are hungry, by the way - not people from Hungary)

yep.

Exactly, if you take the classic example of northern Ireland, religious divide was an easy way to label a complex ethno-cultural and historical division (although the historical divide did have religious aspects, in many ways these aspects were played up to support political agendas, another truth behind "religious" conflict).

hey now, don't be referring to us as a "classic example"... :lol:

seriously, though, agreed.

of course, the darn quote mechanism has now stopped working, so bear with me:

to mark's point about outlawing religion: philly made a point about religion which suggested outlawing it. I may have been reading too much into it, and he may not have meant it in anywhere near as strong terms, but I thought I'd better fend off the point, anyway.

also, way to slag off LOTR and optimus prime. They rule. :lol:

I'm not sure about your point about religion being a motivator for the common man. Sure, but remove religion and they'll just find another motivator. Even in the middle ages, not all wars were about religion. The hundred years war, for example, wasn't religious at all.

bear in mind, though, that I'm a bit contrary. If someone came in and started arguing that religions were nothing to do with wars I'd probably start arguing with them too. :lol:

[MDV]

I didnt mean to slag off optimus, of course.

LOTR, on the other hand.....

[dave_mc]

i guess i'll take what i can get... :lol:

[Johnny Mac]

Michael Bay?

Nah.

But I would want Darwin Vs Jesus - Survival of the Fittest (as the film would be called) to have ving rhames play jesus, christopher walken play darwin, vin diesel play dawkins and....lets see now....yes, anne hathaway as the love interest and robert downey jr as the mad scientist that makes a time machine that lets all the characters come together

And there would be eplosions.

And dinosaurs.

And aliens.

Sounds bloody brilliant Mark!  :lol: Could these variables extend to Alien Dinosaurs too!

Interesting thread this. I've never believed in God, I became aware of my utter disbelief in a God of any kind at around 7 and like you and Philly just can't understand why people still bang on about it and take it so seriously. I saw some Catholic thingy (I haven't got a clue of its actual name but some kind of ceremony)  going on in a church on the telly last year where these blokes were dressed in these foolish robes and big hats. One seemed to think he was better than his mates or so it appeared and the lowest one of them had to lie on the floor beneth the grande fromage. Wtf is all that about? There is so much bollocks in it all, which is a word that came directly from religion. Bollocks is what young preists were called in London years ago as they spoke so much shitee or bollocks. Anyone here had a read of the Quoran? I did once. I did hear that it was the ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic. Half a page later confirmed it as bollocks and I threw it back in the skip in which I found it.

[Philly Q]

to mark's point about outlawing religion: philly made a point about religion which suggested outlawing it. I may have been reading too much into it, and he may not have meant it in anywhere near as strong terms, but I thought I'd better fend off the point, anyway.

Not trying to get all argumentative, but I never said anything about outlawing religion (except in reply to your point).  What I originally said was that I sometimes wish we'd stop being so bloody respectful to religion - when it interferes in other aspects of life - and "acknowledge it's all complete hogwash".

And I don't buy the argument about religious conflicts actually boiling down to sociopolitical (good word, Mark!  ) issues.  That's all far too rational.  Those issues may indeed underlie the conflicts, but the people involved believe they're about religion - therefore they are about religion.   And there's nothing rational about religion.

However, I'm not claiming for a second that if there was no religion in the world there'd be no conflict.  :(

[dave_mc]

(a) Not trying to get all argumentative, but I never said anything about outlawing religion (except in reply to your point).  What I originally said was that I sometimes wish we'd stop being so bloody respectful to religion - when it interferes in other aspects of life - and "acknowledge it's all complete hogwash".

(b) And I don't buy the argument about religious conflicts actually boiling down to sociopolitical (good word, Mark!  ) issues.  That's all far too rational.  Those issues may indeed underlie the conflicts, but the people involved believe they're about religion - therefore they are about religion.   And there's nothing rational about religion.

(c) However, I'm not claiming for a second that if there was no religion in the world there'd be no conflict.  :(

(a) oh ok, sorry. :)

(b) I dunno. If the people think the conflict is about religion does that make it about religion? Certainly in some instances the guys at the top are taking advantage of the situation and know it's not about religion.

(c) yeah.

:)

[dheim]

Michael Bay?

Nah.

But I would want Darwin Vs Jesus - Survival of the Fittest (as the film would be called) to have ving rhames play jesus, christopher walken play darwin, vin diesel play dawkins and....lets see now....yes, anne hathaway as the love interest and robert downey jr as the mad scientist that makes a time machine that lets all the characters come together

And there would be eplosions.

And dinosaurs.

And aliens.

And an earth-stomping armada of war hardened Orcs.

And knights in chain mail vests.

And a lot of flags.

And samurai warriors.

And ninjas, sa va sans dire...

[MDV]

Alien dinosaurs for sure.

And ninjas, obviously

And raptor-ninjas.

No orcs!

But possibly giant robots.

[38thBeatle]

I just started The Other Hand by Chris Cleave. I've heard its very good. Havent got far enough in to say yet.

I read that a few weeks back. Enjoyed it a lot.

[dheim]

I basically, most of the time, think people should be free to believe whatever they like.  But when you get things like government policy, wars and acts of terrorism being driven by religion.... that's when I think "this is bullsh!t, $%&# your religious freedom, we'd be better off acknowledging it's all complete hogwash".  :|

I'm not so sure, PQ - I think that religion is a handy excuse, easy to categorise into good and bad, black and white, us and them (...and after all, we're only ordinary men... etc).  However, I think that MOST conflicts that we categorise as "religious" actually boil down land, poverty and oppression. 

Religion is a handy tag to use, but it's far less of a driver than hungry people.

(that's people who are hungry, by the way - not people from Hungary)

i completely agree with you.
i don't really believe in "holy wars". as you said religion is just a tag. politic beliefs work exactly in the same way... if we've got an enemy or just decide to create one it's easy to put him behind the unwalkable line of religion or other marks of birth or thought...
and very often those tags put people in categories they never felt to belong.
if you think about what happened in Jugoslavia, in many cases people who lived in the same building found themselves on the opposite sides of the front because of their "official" belonging to Catholic, Orthodox or Muslim faith, even if they weren't religious at all.
in other cases religious feelings are just an easy way to feel part of a bigger group with a common enemy... i don't think that every Palestinian is muslim. personally i know some guy from Gaza. most are just vaguely believers or even atheists. like most europeans are. but their problem is common... sometimes a friend or relative of theirs gets killed by stray bullets fired by israeli tanks or helicopters or soldiers... or their home gets bulldozed at dawn. and this has little to do with religion.
that is not a conflict between muslims and jews, just a military occupation carried on by a nationalist government. of course not every israeli out there supports it, but i don't think that russian people looked at germans with much sympathy in 1946, even if many of them had no direct responsability in the invasion of their homeland, soldiers NOT excluded.
and so hate leads to hate, with no exception.

i think this is completely off topic, but who cares...

[dheim]

didn't mean to start a political war, anyway... i'm atheist, anarchist and misanthrope, so i'm glad i don't belong to ANY group of people... ;)

[dave_mc]

if you think about what happened in Jugoslavia, in many cases people who lived in the same building found themselves on the opposite sides of the front because of their "official" belonging to Catholic, Orthodox or Muslim faith, even if they weren't religious at all.

same thing here... there's a joke that a northern irish person asks a visitor to the country what religion he is.

"Oh, I'm an atheist, actually"

The Northern Irish person waits for a couple of moments, then asks,

"But are you a protestant atheist or a catholic atheist?"

...

[MDV]

if you think about what happened in Jugoslavia, in many cases people who lived in the same building found themselves on the opposite sides of the front because of their "official" belonging to Catholic, Orthodox or Muslim faith, even if they weren't religious at all.

same thing here... there's a joke that a northern irish person asks a visitor to the country what religion he is.

"Oh, I'm an atheist, actually"

The Northern Irish person waits for a couple of moments, then asks,

"But are you a protestant atheist or a catholic atheist?"

...

:lol:

[Elliot]

DaveMC - good joke, but there is some truth in it.  I am an atheist and have been one since I couldn't quite grasp why all people were inherently sinful because a fictional character ate an apple, but despite this I find that my family's Protestant background informs my views on things.  Atheists from RC backgrounds I know tend to think differently to me - and in a Catholic sought of way.