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Author Topic: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .  (Read 9826 times)

Fourth Feline

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Hi,  :)

Just a few things I would have liked to have known at the outset ; but at least gave rise to a lot of enjoyable experiments.  My observations are not ( of course ! ) given as the irrefutable truth, just stuff that I gleaned along the way.  In fact I  posted it partly to  enjoy learning  from contrary opinions - and of course for the 'lurkers' who might visit for Archtop fodder.

1) Bare Knuckle pickups are very sensitive to adjustment - in the best possible way.

Half a turn of the height adjusters, can hit your favourite 'sweet spot' - or dial it out again. This is a mark of great quality, as on the Archtop / Jazzer,  what you are usually hearing is the raw sound. No stock pickups I have ever tried differed much until I had moved them 2-3 whole turns.  I know this is "Preaching to the choir " for most people, but if you are new to B.K.P. make no assumptions until you have spent time listening, and adjusting.


2) Of the budget ( sub £300 category ) Hollow Archtops - Ibanez are the best 'straight out of the box' .

The Vintage turned out very well, but it's finish is relatively fragile, and the stock hardware was swiftly  replaced.  The Ibby has good hardware, is very well designed / proportioned, is tough as old boots ( whilst still having the best sonic presentation / projection ) and the 'stock' hardware saves you £ 50 + of your 'upgrade' budget.  I may just have been lucky, but I suspect not.

3) String heavy, set the truss rod - use as designed.

I have tried lighter and heavier strings , but for Jazz / chord melody , go heavy and set the truss rod accordingly. This not only holds the strings in place beneath your fingers better  for clean chording - but also seems to create extra resonance as considerable truss rod and string tension meet.   A well set up archtop with 13s- 14s on It's still going to be easier to play than a Les Paul with 11's - If it has a set back 'Lyre' type tailpiece.  Use for the purpose it was designed, ( i.e no bends beyond 1/4 tone bends ). This enables an action of 0.5 mm at the 12th fret. The bridge is most probably the 'floating' type, so bending is going to feel different anyway.

4) Use a wooden bridge.  

This is not an 'all or nothing' thing, but I love the sweeter presentation, and the mild blending of notes it provides.  The intonation is still easy to set, in fact easier than the ( non - compensated type ) Telecaster 3 saddle bridges I have had.  Heavier strings seem to intonate much better anyway.

5) Don't be put off by the mystique / snobbery associated with playing Jazzier styles.

It's just a steeper learning curve at the outset.  It's not 'better' knowledge , it's not 'higher' knowledge - it's just 'new stuff' - much as any genre.  The person playing Neo-Classical Rock / Metal is probably sweating over much the same stuff.  As an existing player, you can use all the stuff you already know - just differently .

6) Take it slow, enjoy the journey - find your own path.

I apologise in advance  if much of what I have written is self evident, but it is ( hopefully ) a starting point.

Cheers !  :)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 02:13:20 PM by Fourth Feline »

Philly Q

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 08:56:36 PM »
2) Of the budget ( sub £300 category ) Hollow Archtops - Ibanez are the best 'straight out of the box' .

The Vintage turned out very well, but it's finish is relatively fragile, and the stock hardware was swiftly  replaced.  The Ibby has good hardware, is very well designed / proportioned, is tough as old boots ( whilst still having the best sonic presentation / projection ) and the 'stock' hardware saves you £ 50 + of your 'upgrade' budget.  I may just have been lucky, but I suspect not.

Have you got an Ibanez as well as the Vintage now then Derek?  Tell us more, or did I miss a thread?

(Very interesting post, although I don't think the archtop world is for me  :) )
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Fourth Feline

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 10:03:37 PM »
Hiya Philly !  :D

Yes, the Ibanez crept in under the radar , only being mentioned /pictured briefly in the 'AIV stormies in an Archtop' players section. Here it is again :



It was photographed when I was experimenting with the M.Qs - but they are not airy and detailed enough for this very specific use.

It came to be, when I had found myself with an un-used pair of Stormy Mondays, and the wish to have one  roundwound strung and one  flatwound strung pair of Jazzers. Both sort of strings being great in their own right. In the end , certain comments by 'Gingataff' made me realise that total string silence is not compulsory, or ( often ) even desirable.

It has ended up as one AII Stormy Monday roundwound rigged Jazzer - being the Ibanez ( it's also smaller on the knee for mucho practice ) and one roundwound strung Manhattan guitar.  The important note being that I use T.I 'Be-Bop' strings, which have relatively light bass strings, for comfy chording - without sacrificing volume / tone balance. Both the recent AIV demo - and the AII demo in the players section, being on the Ibanez.

Sorted !  :D
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 10:06:13 PM by Fourth Feline »

Philly Q

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 12:05:45 AM »
Ah, I did miss the other thread - I don't spend much time in the Players forum (too intimidating!).

I had a listen to both clips.  I like both the AII and AIV, would be hard-pressed to pick between them.  I must say, those clean jazz tones leave the player very "exposed"... a little scary really!
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Prawnik

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 08:56:50 AM »
I often think I need to get my paws on a MiJ or MiK Epiphone Emperor.

Then eject the electronics from it and install BKPs; either Stormy Mondays or Manhattans or one of each. Unless I got my claws into one of the Emperors with a single floating minibucker.

Trying to get a James Blood Ulmer tone. Cats like!

HTH AMPS

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 09:59:32 AM »
I simply don't GET jazz for the most part, it doesn't move me.  Some great playing, but I'm a basher anyway - I don't have the finesse for that intricate stuff.

timski

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 01:16:20 PM »
Might as well contribute seeing as there seem to be very few jazz guys on the BKP forum.

My 'budget' (under £500) full hollowbody archtop is a beautiful Godin Kingpin with a custom BK A3 underwound P90 in place of stock, and the pots changed from 250k to 500k (why they originally put 250s in there I don't know).

Like Cat No.4 I also use TI BeBop strings (currently 13s, but may well try the 14s next time). I play through a silverface Fender Champ, Princeton Reverb or Vibrolux Reverb depending on the size of the venue and generally aim for a fairly crisp, Grant Green type sound (he mostly played a Gibson 330), although by rolling back the tone I can easily get the more ubiquitous, damped jazz tone.

For jazz/rock/funk/fusion I have a non-budget (although good-price 2nd hand) Gibson 335 reissue which will eventully (once I have the funds) be the happy owner of a pair of A2 unpotted Stormy Mondays (which I had in a previous 335 copy and loved).

choucas09

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 03:06:42 PM »
One of the many interesting points FF made in the opening post was the fact that the increased tension in heavy strings allied to the inevitable tightening of the truss rod improves sustain. I'd never thought of that, but it is self evidently true. Not something I can take advantage of as I have to string mine light (10's) because of hand troubles.

I'm not a jazzer and I bought mine to get a smokey blues tone. It delivered that nicely and so much more besides. When I tried playing Beatles stuff with it it seemed to sing then it occurred to me that at one time they were an archtop band.

Anyway here's a snippet of mine. It's only recorded with a Garageband amp, but I've got an amp on order which will let me explore further.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7997322

I like the sound of an archie on rock settings too.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8783512
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 03:42:35 PM by choucas09 »

timski

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 03:42:25 PM »
I'm not sure adjusting the truss rod would affect string tension.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think it would only affect the degree of bow of the neck as, once the neck is the desired relief, and the bridge/intonation suitably adjusted, any change in string tension that has occurred through adjusting the truss will be negated once the strings are re-tuned.

timski

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 04:26:01 PM »
'When I tried playing Beatles stuff with it it seemed to sing then it occurred to me that at one time they were an archtop band.'

Everyone forgets that rock n roll/blues/RNB/country, etc were in full swing long before the solidbody electric was around.
Scotty Moore, Carl Perkins, T Bone Walker, John Lee Hooker & co all played archtops.

It seems a shame that it's only really jazz guys, C&W players or eccentrics like Ted Nugent and Brian Setzer that play them nowadays, especially as you no longer have to pay ££££ for a decent one.

Fourth Feline

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 05:06:49 PM »
I simply don't GET jazz for the most part, it doesn't move me.  Some great playing, but I'm a basher anyway - I don't have the finesse for that intricate stuff.

Perhaps surprisingly, I largely agree .  I don't usually listen to much Jazz, beyond the Ballads, and touches of Steely Dan , Miles Davies , Joe Pass ( because I like, and owe a debt to , the man himself ) - and 'crossover' artists like Larry Carlton. My own 'project' / intention was to learn how to " Play a nice tune" upon request, and find relaxation doing it. I give an ( over generalised ) epithet of 'Jazz' - or 'Jazz-ish' to what I currently study - to denote that it is probably more like Jazz than Rock.  As I cannot sing, the only way I could hope to live / share the ballads I love - would be to try and arrange them, however naively.  :)

Fourth Feline

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 05:14:49 PM »

 I must say, those clean jazz tones leave the player very "exposed"... a little scary really!

A little scary ? a LOT scary more like ...   :lol:

 Part of the fun / discipline / technical improvement I seek , is to try and control that - Just in case I ever need to play it through my Fender " Twin Amp"- or ( Heavens help me  ) if I ever get an actual audience !    It's a baptism of fire really ; no effects, no mercy, no excuses.  A personal journey of re-building, not a crusade that I think other people should be joining.  I'm investing now in what I think would be needed / enjoyed in my later musical years. :)

Fourth Feline

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2010, 05:30:25 PM »
I'm not sure adjusting the truss rod would affect string tension.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think it would only affect the degree of bow of the neck as, once the neck is the desired relief, and the bridge/intonation suitably adjusted, any change in string tension that has occurred through adjusting the truss will be negated once the strings are re-tuned.

Hi,  :)

Yes, it is in the act of trying to 'negate' the ( considerable ) string tension, that the phenomena occurs.  :)

I meant that ( as discussed with a local luthier back in the 70s ) - the intrinsic tension of a much heavier set of strings, allows me to crank the truss rod up.   The end result being,  that with the truss rod steel, straining against that much tension - the resulting resonance seemed to subtly bring the neck 'alive' in a way that 9 - 10 gauge strings and a much looser truss rod setting ever did.  The effect being more than just it having heavier = louder strings.  When the heavy strings ( with their fixed and predictable tension ) allowed the truss rod to be pulled up tighter than ever before  , it seemed to acquire a character closer to that of a tuning fork - than a piece of relatively 'dead' metal in the neck.   The Luthier I discussed this with all that time ago, was of the gentle opinion that " Guitars seem to like heavier strings - and the conditions that allows / creates" .    :)

(* Edit *)

I find that if I string my Les Paul 10-52 instead of 10-46, the top three strings 'sing' better - they seem to come alive somehow.

Oh, and if I have not said it before, Welcome to the forum !  :D
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 05:56:10 PM by Fourth Feline »

Fourth Feline

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 05:44:42 PM »
I often think I need to get my paws on a MiJ or MiK Epiphone Emperor.

Then eject the electronics from it and install BKPs; either Stormy Mondays or Manhattans or one of each. Unless I got my claws into one of the Emperors with a single floating minibucker.

Trying to get a James Blood Ulmer tone. Cats like!

Hiya,  :)

I know this will sound rather obvious, but for this usage, gauge of strings - I would be careful to choose a guitar with a 24.7 " scale - in preference to a 25.5" scale, unless you like 'em stiff !  It's that old Fender vs Gibson 'feel' all over again.  Looking back , it was a longer scale Jazzer that put me off trying to learn Jazz years ago.

Also, for chording cleanly, I find that a neck which widens out fairly quickly after the nut, is better for fitting all your fingers in the same area. My 'Vintage' 175 type copy, remains faithful to Gibson neck dimensions / width - and is nice to play on, but when I later tried the Ibanez, it was like having a bigger playground to run around in. It's subtle, but the extra little bit of accumulating neck width that is not as obvious to the eye, is very obvious to the hand , especially when chording around the 10th - 12th frets and above.  :)

Fourth Feline

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Re: Reflections on the ( Budget ) Fully hollow 'Archtop' and all that Jazz .
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 05:51:26 PM »
One of the many interesting points FF made in the opening post was the fact that the increased tension in heavy strings allied to the inevitable tightening of the truss rod improves sustain. I'd never thought of that, but it is self evidently true. Not something I can take advantage of as I have to string mine light (10's) because of hand troubles.

I'm not a jazzer and I bought mine to get a smokey blues tone. It delivered that nicely and so much more besides. When I tried playing Beatles stuff with it it seemed to sing then it occurred to me that at one time they were an archtop band.

Anyway here's a snippet of mine. It's only recorded with a Garageband amp, but I've got an amp on order which will let me explore further.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7997322

I like the sound of an archie on rock settings too.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8783512

I love that 'fruity' tone ! There is that definate 'Jazz' quality about it, a depth behind the notes -  and a lovely Archtop type 'Bloom' on the notes.  I enjoyed the playing too ! It has the quality of sound and composition that grabbed my ears and emotions one fateful night in a local Wine Bar back in the late 70s. Blues that made you listen, and put the 'Spock grip' on the day's stresses.  Keep the Eastman, you can play it , you sure can play it !  :D