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Author Topic: Panorama - Filesharing  (Read 14935 times)

JDC

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2010, 08:10:48 AM »
Watching it now, I'm only 10 minutes in and I've already had enough, weasel wording propaganda rubbish.

When they are talking to the uni students, like oh noes!!!! they download!!! nothing about how much debt they are in. How they talk about it affecting the UK creative industry, well if we only bought UK artist's music we'd be doing the UK economy a favour by reducing imports and having an indirect affect in exports, other countries loss is our gain. ;)

If everyone had financial security for life I don't think they would be downloading. But if I hadn't been able to "discover" proper music via the internet I wouldn't have spent loads of money on gigs, t-shirts and festivals, nor would I have started playing guitar and be making this forum post.

shobet

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2010, 08:23:21 AM »
It's not necessarily going to be an mp3 on the iPod. It can play any of the following files types MP3, AAC , WMA, AIFF, WAV, M4A and M4P.

Note that most of these are lossy formats and you have no way of knowing at what bitrate his files were copied at. One could have been at created at 44kbit/s whilst the other at 256kbit/s. You may also have been comparing a file encoded with one codec with another, e.g. MP3 v AAC. Also they may have been imported in a lossless format and then you're comparing something that's exactly like the source versus something that's got bits missing (pun intended).

You need to know you're comparing like for like before you can make an informed decision.
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MDV

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2010, 11:58:08 AM »
Aside from anything else, I have a good CD player and like to use it. 2 good CD players, actually. Which reminds me, no one NOT ONE person even alluded to the lower quality of MP3s in download.

on that fact, today in the shop our local yorkville sales rep came in. he demoed their new 21'' 2400 active subwoofer to us. the songs he had in his iPod were doing the sub justice.. (there was some RATM song that made my eardrums suck back and forth in phase with the speaker)... a local kid wanted to plug his iPod in. he did. some power metal band or so. might have been the mp3 quality or the EQ on his iPod.... but all of a sudden the 21'' sub was muddy, like we expected it to be at first. the sales rep puts his own Ipod back in, and all the punch and clarity is back.

mp3 is a good way to sample the quality of a cd...... but it's definitely not a quality format. a sound guy once told me that mp3 has a wall for anything over 12khz. i can beleive that!

Theres little difference in the low end, actually. That would have been in the track, or as an outside possibility, the ipods, if, say, one were generation 5 (using the best dacs they've used) and the other was, well, any other.

The problems with MP3 are in the top end.

Only at an extremely low bitrate will it cut of at 12k, though (perhaps 56kbs). A 128Kbs lame encoded MP3 sounds about right up to ~16Khz.

Try getting some CDs, ripping them to FLAC and MP3 and testing them in an AB/X comparitor. I very much doubt you'll get them right with any statistical significance by listening to the low end. Cymbals, 'air', the sense of space in the sound, yeah, there can be big differences.

Also. read about Nyquist Theorem - should shed light on why this is!

Lew

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2010, 12:36:44 PM »
The Panorama was hard to watch because Joe Whiley is 'orrid and since when did the BBC become so one-sided and opinionated - it's something I've been really aware of recently, they've definitely lost their way.

Anyway... it can't and wont be stopped no matter how much propaganda they through at the easily scared.

Threatening and/or cutting off the internet will simply result in people using a different ISP thus resulting in loss of funds for the ISP's which in turn will result in ISP's making the law a non issue. If it is upheld, then an entrepreneur will find a loop hole and offer a more download friendly ISP. And in the very unlikely case of that not happening people will just become savvy with masking their I.P (it's not hard).

There's a buyer for everything, if it's not being sold the price is too high. You might not like to hear it but it's that simple. Media costs far too much. Make it worth buying - not by using antiquated models for pricing but by looking at actual value in the current world.




dave_mc

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2010, 07:33:10 PM »
There's a buyer for everything, if it's not being sold the price is too high. You might not like to hear it but it's that simple. Media costs far too much. Make it worth buying - not by using antiquated models for pricing but by looking at actual value in the current world.

agreed. i remember before the internet came along, i used to have to pay £15 or £20 for the CDs I wanted. Needless to say, I only bought the ones I really, really wanted. If they're £20 each I'll only buy one, whereas if they were £7 each (as they often were on amazon, I'm not talking about illegal downloading when I mention the internet), I might buy 3.

Guess how much business I've given to places like HMV once the internet came around? I knew I was being fleeced at the time, but had no other option. That business model only works so long as there is no other option.

JDC

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2010, 10:36:06 AM »
ah but do they want to sell an item to one person for £20 or sell it to 2 people for £7

Lew

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2010, 10:49:12 AM »
I'm enjoying Spotify. It's superb value. Although, I'm sure they'll bring the price up when they get more traffic, they'd have to bring it up a hell of alot to make it bad value though. It's a really good idea. The UI is simple, clean and fast. The only draw back is there isn't a huge catalog of music on it (yet?).

dave_mc

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2010, 06:06:55 PM »
ah but do they want to sell an item to one person for £20 or sell it to 2 people for £7

with any luck they're selling it to nobody now for £20... :lol:

Ian Price

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2010, 01:08:01 PM »
Watched the programme last night. Lots and lots of short term views on display. Those that don't embrace the technology that is available now, and don't learn to live with it, will fail in the long run.

IMO the whole reason this argument exists is because of the people that run the record companies. They know that sales have been on the slide for a number of years and are trying to find ways to stop them. The methods they are using are the worst they could use - the arrogance is unbelievable.

If I was a recording artist (which I'm not) and in need of money (which I am) I would look at downloads as a great  way of making new fans that would be willing to pay some money to come and watch a live show. You can't match that experience with a downloaded video of a gig.

As for Tinchy Stryder (great name) saying "it's alright for them to say that (i.e. downloading is good) when they have earned loads of money already", I thought that this was a good measure of some members of today's society. Bunch of tw@ts.

I think I hate being indecisive.

Plexi Ken

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2010, 03:01:32 PM »
Over the past couple of years (due to the economy) many board members, their friends and family will have seen their incomes reduced or lost their jobs (as I did). Most of us have been angry (for which there is no shortage of potential targets) but have acknowledged that this is the result of economic realities. Why is it that the Music Industry can not face up to it's new economic reality. Selling records was once very profitable, now it's less so.
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MDV

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2010, 02:38:57 AM »
Ian and plxi - yes, its exactly the record companies that are at fault.

As I alluded to before - they're working on an obsolete business model thats built around exchange of material (CDs; an object that has to be made, and the object itself cant be replicated without some serious production capacity).

Now, its pretty clear that CDs (or comparable 'to have and hold' object that has music on it, or any media) arent going anywhere, but they need to take a different place in the business. Most music now, in terms of shear number of songs out there is probably digital. I dont know any stats, but thats a (fairly well) educated guess. Anyone thats a big music lover that associates with other music lovers, especially younger folks can make their own assesment of that and we can (in principle) add them all up and see if its true.

The younger people are, the more I guess this is true - MP3 is the dominant format.

But its also true that illegal downloaders spend more money on hard-copy music than non-illegal downloaders, because they're exposed to more music because theres no compunction to download because theres no outlay, so theres no risk. We've all not bought CDs because we didnt like the music quite enough, or handnt heard enough and werent sure, or didnt have the money at the time. I suspect we've all had CDs that we didnt like that much at first, but grew on us and we've come to love them.

Having a zero-outlay means to listen to the music whenever you want means that these risks are removed, and you can get the fence-sitters (the folks that will wander round HMV with a CD like a teddy bear only to put it down again) to buy and the slow-boil music that takes a while to grow on you to sell. The data supports this, too. So does my personal experience - the last time I bought a batch of CDs, the time I mentioned before where I spent more than the years average sum for illegal downloaders, it was to get music that I only had on MP3 (by copying mates CDs and illegal downloading) on hardcopy, because I like it and wanted A: the object B: the best quality sound C: a permanent and reliable source in case of loss of data.

I'd guess/argue a significant majority of people around and under 30 do much the same. I cant say real numbers but among my circles of friends its probably about half follow a similar patter, with the rest being CD-only or almost-download-only. I dont know anyone that doesnt buy CDs.

So what have labels done to address this change in listener consumption patterns?

Started payed downloads and gone on a legal battle to crucify people that download illegally.

Payed downloads are an insult. About £1 per song, the same or more than I can order a CD for from an american distributor on amazon.uk, and its MP3 or equivelent, medium/low bitrate. $%&# off. It doesnt cost near that much to set up and run some servers, even huge ones. Look at free sites like Wiki, that have massive traffic, a handful of employees and huge amounts of data to store - they do it for a few million. There are overheads, but there are no material losses - youre not exchanging anything; youre paying for people to replicate the data from your source. This exploits precisely what makes illegal downloading not stealing to make a huge profit margin - that no one actually loses anything; its all copies.

Going after people that do it to make examples of them is also absurd given the number of people doing it. The measures that have been taken against those that have been singled out smack of trying to lay the whole phenomenon of peer to peer on the first person they can find. Example. http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article721133.ece these punishments do not fit the crime. They are fitting with the record labels huge reserves of cash being able to pay for armies of lawyers to crucify everyday folk.

The sensible option would be to allow illegal downloading, to modify copyright law to state that its illegal to sell music on as a distributor, but not to share/copy for free, lower the prices of paid downloads and increase the quality to high end vorbis or flac and use it as a marketing device to promote CD sales, gigs and merch.

Of course, most of us know this. The mystery is why the labels arent making such shift - its in their financial interests (even if only to be able to throw less money into the legal system to lynch people) and its an easy shift to make.

They could even promote and derive revenue from free download - if sony started making peer to peer client software, for example, then A: they could bring it to the awareness of technological luddites and promote music to broader demographics, then letting the no-risk aspect sell more CDs to the indecisive and selling more 'grow on you' cds take effect in a larger population and B: they can take revenue from advertising in the software, or charge some reasonable monthly subscription for it (15 or 20 a month per copy, or something to that effect). Spotifys model is great for that - free with advertising, paid without, and its doing great.

We'll gloss over for a moment that its unlikely that sony in particular could resist making any software thats not laced with DRM, overcomplicated, unstable and designed to treat people like commodities that owe them their deserved riches, rather than customers that provide them their living. In principle it would work, regardless of the fact that big business will find a way to $%&# it up.  
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 02:42:41 AM by MDV »

JDC

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2010, 04:19:15 AM »
with things like itunes, you're paying for ownership to your account right? not the actual download, i.e. if you lost all your data or something, you'd still own the track and just download it again right?

dave_mc

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2010, 04:58:30 PM »
another nice post, mark. :)

MDV

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2010, 05:33:15 PM »
Ta :)

dave_mc

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2010, 05:41:02 PM »
I'm just happy that someone else other than me is making monster posts that I can just agree with :lol: