Need new preamp valves

[hermetico]

shes a famous wine taster from british TV

Still not clear what he means. I doesn't smell me as positive.
Does it means that I made a good shoot out? (positive)
Or that I am drunk? (negative).

[Twinfan]

I think Martin is implying that you're looking at the very small details of preamp valve tones, as wine tasters do when they talk about "floral flavours" and "lingering apple woodiness"  :roll:

You have different opinions on how much difference they make, clearly  :)

[hermetico]

I did a different preamp valve shootout with gwEm this week using my JTM45/18.  I had a set of NOS Mazda 12AX7's in it which were sounding good, but I'd picked up some over the last month and thought with 2 sets of ears it woudl be a good time to check them.  I have NOS RFT ECC83, GE 12AX7, Philips 5751's and the Mazda's.  As a control we had new Mullard ECC83's (which had worked well in a prior test we'd done).

New Mullard ECC83 - don't put these in after listening to any NOS valves!  The sound is much flatter and the overdrive is more forced.   They don't have the clarity of any of the NOS

NOS Mazda 12AX7 - Nice top end without being piercing, great low end too.  Mids are a little more recessed than the other NOS tubes, but nothing that the tone control won't take care of

NOS RFT ECC83 - much fatter tube than the Mazda or GE's.  Sound is the sound of rock.  Nice bottom and top, but has more in the mid range and more drive than the Mazda's.

NOS GE 12AX7 - Stellar but they run hot.  The mids are incredible, just the tone that you want for rock and heavy blues.  Still keeps great clarity in the top and has punch in the bottom.  They would be my choice, but the hot running was worrying me a bit and I want to try them in my Ceriatone Overdrive Special.

Philips 5751 - Less drive as you would expect, but brought in some of the Bassman side of the JTM45 design.  Excellent valve for a clear flat tone with no vices. 

So at the end of the day I have a Mazda in V1, and an RFT in V2.  Still listening to see if that's where I'll stay.  I haven't played all the pickup types through it yet, so that might make me rethink things.

If you haven't tried NOS preamp tubes you really should give them a try.  I picked mine up on eBay (the RFT's came from Bulgaria), and didn't pay stupid prices for them.  I know if you're a maker you need a steady supply of matched valves, and also you can tune the amp to suit the valves you recommend, but this really was an eye opener.  The other tubes are a Groove Tubes 12AX7M phase inverter, 2 GT KT66's and a Shuguang 5AR4 rectifier tube.

Very interesting. NOS valves should be several steps above of any current produced valve, in principle.

[_tom_]

:lol: I often think people spend too much time obsessing over minute differences in tone and striving for the utmost in clarity or whatever. I used to do it all the time til I realised it was quite pointless!

[hermetico]

I think Martin is implying that you're looking at the very small details of preamp valve tones, as wine tasters do when they talk about "floral flavours" and "lingering apple woodiness"  :roll:

You have different opinions on how much difference they make, clearly  :)

Absolutelly nobody can rule what I hear and what I feel.

This is MY experience with MY amp, MY valves, MY gear and MY guitar (the truth is that my experience matched the experience of a friend that was just hearing the changes, not playing, during all the shoot out).

As I said, differences between the TAD, the EH and the 7025-S are small, nothing that the tone stack of the amp can't handle but, there is a noticiable difference between the JJ's (the ECC83S, I dunno with the LPS!) and those other three. As well as there is a noticiable difference between the Sovteck 12AX7-WA and the JJ ECC83S.
The Tung Sol are brighter than the other two and the TAD darker, being the EH the more balanced. Ther are also differences in the break up point and how they break up.

2 hours of intensive testing, in all conditions: clean guitar, guitar + line booster, guitar + line booster and overdrive, guitar + line booster, overdrive and mesa-like distortion pedal. pre-amp gain at 1/4, 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 for each "gear mode", power amp volume at 2/4 and 4/4 in all those combinations. 10 mins of breakout between tube swaps.

I cannot believe that someone that works with amps cannot distinguish any difference between a JJ ECC83-S and a EH 12AX7 and a Tung Sol or TAD 7025-S from that one!.

And it doesn't mean, in anyway, that I would prefere same valves in other of my amps, neither that my experience could match yours. Since tastes are very personal. Talking about wines, some prefere Rioja, some prefere Ribera de Duero, some prefere Priorato, some prefere Merlot, Cavernet Sauvingon, etc but, a good Sommellier will choose the right one for each dish and/or wallet.

So, I think Martin's aswers is like this:


Adds nothing positive to the discussion.

BTW, I can  only talk here about tone, not about realiability.

[hermetico]

I think Martin is implying that you're looking at the very small details of preamp valve tones, as wine tasters do when they talk about "floral flavours" and "lingering apple woodiness"  :roll:

You have different opinions on how much difference they make, clearly  :)

Well, I can play any guitar loaded with Gibson 57's or Seymour Duncan 59's with pleasure but, do you know what? The Mules gave me the PAF tone I was chasing for several years. The Gibby and SD are in the same league, just different flavour but, the BKP is one or two steps above in tone (to MY ears, to MY taste).

[_tom_]

I'm not trying to bash you or anything like that, hermetico. Just stating my opinion. I can hear differences between different pickups etc but I find that when buying/comparing BKPs (and any other new gear actually) I always find myself worrying too much about whether my purchase was worthwhile and whether the cost was justified.

Probably why I'm enjoying my Gibson/its pickups so much. I know it doesn't sound quite as clear or "organic" as my other guitars, but I'm having more fun actually playing it and not caring so much about the tone, even though it does sound great :) I sort of find that when spending £200 on pickups I get too picky and it sucks all the fun out of it :lol:

[Twinfan]

It's all just opinion - I wouldn't worry too much about it  :)

A key point is where and how loud you play.  At home, I can really notice the difference between my guitars/amps/cabinets/pickups etc.  As soon as I get into a band situation, all the small changes disappear and you notice different things or other things not at all.

For gigging, I don't worry about the tiny details and I can still sound like me using a JTM45 with an SG or an MJW Orion and a Tele.

If what you've got works for you, in your situation, then that's great.  I agree with Martin to a certain extent in that once you're cranked up with a drummer who the hell will notice if you're using BKPs/a long tenon Les Paul/an original '74 script logo MXR Phase 90, other than yourself?

EDIT:  Crossed posts with Tom, and I think we're coming from the same angle!

[hermetico]

I'm not trying to bash you or anything like that, hermetico. Just stating my opinion. I can hear differences between different pickups etc but I find that when buying/comparing BKPs (and any other new gear actually) I always find myself worrying too much about whether my purchase was worthwhile and whether the cost was justified.

Probably why I'm enjoying my Gibson/its pickups so much. I know it doesn't sound quite as clear or "organic" as my other guitars, but I'm having more fun actually playing it and not caring so much about the tone, even though it does sound great :) I sort of find that when spending £200 on pickups I get too picky and it sucks all the fun out of it :lol:

Nothing wrong. I understand your position and it's very reasonable but I don't share it. Also nothing wrong.
Everyone is free of deciding what worths the money, the effort or the try or, how to expend or waste his time and money.

[hermetico]

It's all just opinion - I wouldn't worry too much about it  :)

A key point is where and how loud you play.  At home, I can really notice the difference between my guitars/amps/cabinets/pickups etc.  As soon as I get into a band situation, all the small changes disappear and you notice different things or other things not at all.

For gigging, I don't worry about the tiny details and I can still sound like me using a JTM45 with an SG or an MJW Orion and a Tele.

If what you've got works for you, in your situation, then that's great.  I agree with Martin to a certain extent in that once you're cranked up with a drummer who the hell will notice if you're using BKPs/a long tenon Les Paul/an original '74 script logo MXR Phase 90, other than yourself?

EDIT:  Crossed posts with Tom, and I think we're coming from the same angle!

Yup, I agree up to certain point. Probably, I will play comfortablely wih a 57' a 59' or a BKP but, everyone will notice it if I am playing a cheap Korean or Chinesse PAF, since I will start to play really bad. If I don't like what I hear, I don't enjoy and, If I don't enjoy, all my performance sucks.

And then, there are studio recordings, where the little differences became bigger.

As I said, nothing wrong. Everyone chooses his path. I am not trying to defend anything in concrete, just sharing my own conclussions, feelings about my personal experience with those valves.
It can be helpul or not for anyone, I really don't care. It's useful for me.

[38thBeatle]

I think that it is always interesting to hear other peoples views on things and whether you agree with them or not is of little importance as fa as I am concerned. With tone I would say that there are so many variables than can influence tone-the type of guitar/pickups/strings/pick/cable,amp/valves/venue/volume/style of the player/mood of the player/day of the week etc etc. I guess that what we all want is to get the best of each element and as best is always subjective (at least in the context that we are using) the debates will go on and on. All part of the fun as far as I am concerned as long as we are all civilized about it that is and most people on this forum are civilized.

[HTH AMPS]

If I don't like what I hear, I don't enjoy and, If I don't enjoy, all my performance sucks.

^ +1

if my tone isn't happening, it bothers me and I really can't get into it.

its quite surprising that on a forum for high-end pickups there are people who consider fine-tuning your rig to be cork sniffing.  imo, all those little things we fine tune make a big difference when combined whether its NOS valves, paper in oil caps in your guitar, high-end cables, the type of pick you use or indeed BKPs.

I would note that the most expensive tweaks are not always the 'best' (subjectively) - like cables, I like some treble roll off as those super-low capacitance cables sound harsh in the top end to me.  To someone else, that might translate into a clearer/more-detailed top end.

[_tom_]

Yeah I don't like it when my tone is awful as I don't enjoy it. I think I've just found a threshold where it sounds "good enough" to me and I stop caring about the tone and concentrate more on the playing.

As Dave says I think the more subtle stuff can often get a bit lost in a band situation. BKPs were definitely worth the money for my other two guitars though, Epiphone pickups are rubbish!

Have my first gig with the Gibson tonight so we'll see how it fares without BKPs in that situation rather than just playing at home or at band practice!

[Twinfan]

Best of luck Tom - hope it goes well!

As you say, the subtle stuff is of huge importance to the home player or serious recording dude, but not the average pub player!

[hermetico]

like cables, I like some treble roll off as those super-low capacitance cables sound harsh in the top end to me.  To someone else, that might translate into a clearer/more-detailed top end.

100% agree. Fender Koil Kord standard works fine but, the Platinum has excesive high end content and sounds harsh. That's why Hendrix always worked with radioshack coil cords.