Is it easier for a beginner or intermediate player to learn to shred?

[crispsandwich]

It sounds like a daft question, I know.

I've been playing for around 8 years. I wouldn't consider myself a beginner. However, I don't know if I'd consider myself an intermediate player. I don't know a great number of songs. I can do some techniques fairly well, i.e. tapping, hammer-ons, pull-offs and sweeps (with practice). My vibrato is fine and I can play with 'feel'. I know a few scales and can improvise to an extent.

I really want to improve my technique, especially my picking technique. I can't do machine gun style riffing i.e. Bullt For My Valentine and I can't shred. I'm fairly certain that I could improve my legato with practice but I don't know where to start with my picking. My wrist is just too loose. I can't do the tiny movements required for speed metal and shred.

Has anyone else been in this position? Are bad habits impossible to break out of? I often wonder if a beginner learning from scratch would find it easier than me to learn to shred.
   

[Brow]

I'm in pretty much exactly the same position myself, so I'll keep my eyes open on this thread!  :lol:

[MDV]

Well, its terribly hard to tell without seeing and hearing you play, but from the grounding you have I dont see that you (or brow) would have a problem.

Not that I'm much of a shredder, but machine gun riffing (BFMV?!?!?!? Yeah, right - start with, say, old metallica and fear factory and we'll go from there!!) is a strong suit of mine (such that I have any) and you need to be loose and relaxed to do it - firm pick attack is need, but tensing and cramping up your motion is the enemy. Quite solid, but not hard, grip of the pick and relaxed, smooth motions, which dont need to be too short, you have room to move between the strings, they need to be controlled and precise, which doesnt automatically mean short motions - some width to a pick stroke, I find, helps keep notes clear and delinieated; your picking can start tripping over itself a little if you keep the motions too constrained (though it seems to work for some) and again, relaxed (or at least not tense) is much better, for most (kerry king pretty much beats the cr@p out of strings with a motion from the elbow, so, y'know, whatever works).

That said, theres no one exact style. Here are a few high quality examples of (and one very poor example of, for levity sake) fast rhythm picking of varying degrees of complexity.

meshuggah doing bleed. This aint that easy, work up to it (if youre interested in doing so); its way beyond BFMV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd6z39PbIRw

The vid for origin, finite - the fella with the jackson warrior (paul ryan) has quite a wide, loose picking style, but its very precise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIMW0aHN0ks

This vid is a pretty cr@p representation of them, but karl and dallas from nile use totally different picking techniques to play very fast rhythm (karl uses very narrow motions, dallas a much wider, harder, more violent pick attack that sort of goes against the usual wisdom of keeping relaxed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDpw-Med3dw

Dino doing some divine heresy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBgti_gyVQQ

And lastly hetfield showing the harder style (but still pretty relaxed, just more forceful, if that makes any sense) that makes metallica rhythm what it is (and hammet failing dismally to pick up a simple riff :lol: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=546KjKMB9kw

Maybe some of these examples will help you find a way to play the rhythm that you want to play in a way that works for you?

Shredding....there are probably better people here to advise than I (not that theres no one better to advise on metal rhythm :lol: I just know that moderately well is all).

[JDC]

I'd say it was about the same, I can do all the shred stuff but I wouldn't call myself the best in the world at it

I find it's pretty much 80% practice 20% observation, metronome helps too

by observation I mean looking at what your doing, how hard you pick, how smoothly your hands move around, your speed limit is basically how fast you can tremolo pick a single note

the biggest thing is probably staying committed and practising, ie I never really practice chords and still suck at switching between them, even the basic open chords

[MDV]

Oh, the single most important thing with fast rhythm and shred is to start SLOW, and I mean SLOW and build up gradually to the speed you want it to be.

[crispsandwich]

Thanks for the replies :).

That Meshuggah vid is incredible. That's exactly how I'd love to riff. Such control. The string-to-string playing is seamless.

The Hetfield/Hammett vid is just too funny.

Looks like I'd better get out the metronome :D.

[JDC]

turn out I been playing bleed wrong, I been playing it dud,d ala thrash metal style, so now I've been playing it dud,u but I still have to think when doing it

[dave_mc]

it's easiest if you're a total badass player already, I'd have thought. :lol:

[tomjackson]

Easier for an intermediate  player but sometimes it's hard to get away from everthing you already know and everything you already play.  A beginner has a clean slate which is sometimes nice.

I think Lessons can really open doors and renew impetus.  I had a years worth after playing 15 years and made more progress than the previous  5 years.  Not shredding but it certainly opened doors.

Unfortuntely I had a another kid, run out of time and money and stopped the lessons :(

[Matt77]

hmmm old habits die hard

I'm no shredder but Paul Gilbert Intense Rock is a good place to start
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=paul+gilbert+intense+rock+1&aq=3

Most people don't realise what's causing their mistakes even when they slow down.
Break down the mechanics of each movement
Everytime you pick a note think where the plectrum ends up and where it's got to go next to trigger the next note.
It's not just about moving the pick in alternate motions as fast as you can, you need to consider what you need to do to get over strings when you land on the wrong side of them.

A lot of the mechanics of alternate picking isn't about equal up and down strokes each altenate motion isn't always the same distance as the last, you need to adjust the angle you hit the string, the height of the follow through motion when you move away from the sting after hitting it etc. all to get where the pick needs to go next without hitting something it shouldn't on the way.

I'm probably sounding like a tw@t now so I'll get my coat  :(

[Matt77]

I think Lessons can really open doors and renew impetus.  I had a years worth after playing 15 years and made more progress than the previous  5 years.  Not shredding but it certainly opened doors.

Unfortuntely I had a another kid, run out of time and money and stopped the lessons :(

Andy misses you! He doesn't get to teach many adults and I think he prefers it

[tomjackson]

I think Lessons can really open doors and renew impetus.  I had a years worth after playing 15 years and made more progress than the previous  5 years.  Not shredding but it certainly opened doors.

Unfortuntely I had a another kid, run out of time and money and stopped the lessons :(

Andy misses you! He doesn't get to teach many adults and I think he prefers it

Tell him I'm coming back at some point! 

Hopefully later this year.....

[Antag]

Are bad habits impossible to break out of? I often wonder if a beginner learning from scratch would find it easier than me to learn to shred.

Not impossible, but they require committment.  I'm only just starting to break out of a 15+ year plateau.  For me, the important thing has been to understand the difference between playing & practising.

It's very easy once you get to a certain level of competence to just play aimlessly, or write songs (in itself a good thing).  But technically, you're just playing things you can already play.  You might be enjoying the sound of the guitar, but you're in your comfort zone.

For me, practising means learning to play things I can't play.  I have to mentally adjust myself to the idea of sounding like cr@p while I struggle with the new technique (whatever it may be).  It also requires concentration not to lapse into just noodling aimlessly again...

[Sifu Ben]

There are plenty of products available
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjbXK_gdUbY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd_NRWwE6v8
I've got the rhythm one, it gives a good foundation
This is a good alternate picking trainer
http://www.youtube.com/user/licklibrary#p/u/400/uHnk07MVJ50
This has really improved my metal playing
http://truefire.com/rock-guitar-lessons/50-metal-guitar-licks/
(If you sign up as a member on the site you'll get a 30 day free trial of Truefire TV, which has all their programmes on it. Although there's not a lot of metal on the site as a whole, I've found that going over blues and rock stuff really fills out your fundamentals, and playing the jazz and funk lessons adds something else to your playing. I am a WAY better player since signing up).
If you've got time, determination and aren't easily frightened, www.chopsfromhell.com has a large range of shred specific material by guys like Rusty Cooley. Here's their Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/cfhtube#p/u/2/SjTJShJg0Go

[Bainzy]

Have you seen my website? www.shredaholic.com

Start by finding all the chromatic based lessons, and just do them to death with the guitar unplugged while watching TV etc. I guarantee a week of constantly doing them, and you WILL have the speed required to shred.