Dirty Fingers

[Doadman]

Ah sorry! I thought you had a Les Paul before. Then that makes it easier I guess. ;)

Edit: As it was a neck-thru I think it shouldn't be that different from your SL3. What kind of bridge (your previous guitar)?

Yes, in theory I think you're right but the vague impression I have is that there is a sonic difference between the two. It's difficult as the SL3 is using a JB, which I think accounts for the thin tone this one has but I don't think it's the pickup that entirely accounts for the brighter tone. They're both maple neck-thru guitars it is true and I'm not sure of the effect the walnut had on the Ibanez but I'm pretty sure the mahogany had an impact as acoustically it was certainly darker. I also read somewhere that Jackson neck-thru guitars are actually more like a very long tenon into the guitar with alder at the end but I'm not sure how accurate that is. Either way, this one is brighter and I don't think the Cold Sweat will work. I've listened to dozens of clips and read hundreds of reviews/comments and based on that, my gut feeling is that the right pickup is either a Nailbomb (not sure between Alnico V and Ceramic) or a ceramic Warpig. Both are articulate pickups that avoid muddiness, both retain quite an organic tone and both are pretty versatile so both seem to remind me of the best aspects of a Dirty Fingers and John Sykes' tone. I tried calling Tim today but he was busy in the workshop so I didn't want to disturb him. It's not immediately pressing as my other guitar isn't sold yet so I'll catch him another time.

[MrBump]

Where does the name "Dirty Fingers" come from?

AFAIK, it's a 1970's Gary Moore album...  Did Gibson name a pickup after that?  Or vice-versa?

[Pale Rider]

Ah sorry! I thought you had a Les Paul before. Then that makes it easier I guess. ;)

Edit: As it was a neck-thru I think it shouldn't be that different from your SL3. What kind of bridge (your previous guitar)?

Yes, in theory I think you're right but the vague impression I have is that there is a sonic difference between the two. It's difficult as the SL3 is using a JB, which I think accounts for the thin tone this one has but I don't think it's the pickup that entirely accounts for the brighter tone. They're both maple neck-thru guitars it is true and I'm not sure of the effect the walnut had on the Ibanez but I'm pretty sure the mahogany had an impact as acoustically it was certainly darker. I also read somewhere that Jackson neck-thru guitars are actually more like a very long tenon into the guitar with alder at the end but I'm not sure how accurate that is. Either way, this one is brighter and I don't think the Cold Sweat will work. I've listened to dozens of clips and read hundreds of reviews/comments and based on that, my gut feeling is that the right pickup is either a Nailbomb (not sure between Alnico V and Ceramic) or a ceramic Warpig. Both are articulate pickups that avoid muddiness, both retain quite an organic tone and both are pretty versatile so both seem to remind me of the best aspects of a Dirty Fingers and John Sykes' tone. I tried calling Tim today but he was busy in the workshop so I didn't want to disturb him. It's not immediately pressing as my other guitar isn't sold yet so I'll catch him another time.

Well if you hear a difference in their acoustic sound then there is a difference. Actually in your case the 1st pickup I would think to try would be a Nailbomb too. Probably a Ceramic for me as I want tightness but the Alnico would still be an option.

[ericsabbath]

alnico pups just don't have that midrange grind
the nailbomb is quite aggressive, but its midrange is smooth

[gwEm]

well, i tried an aftermath (albeit with a screw coil and a slug coil) in Feline's workshop, and I indeed liked it very much for 80s hard rock. we compared it to a painkiller, and they are both very tight, with the aftermath having less synthetic sounding mids. its a very precise sounding pickup, and you can hear every note in the chord. but its full in the mids and rocks

[Doadman]

alnico pups just don't have that midrange grind
the nailbomb is quite aggressive, but its midrange is smooth

Yes, and that's exactly what keeps drawing me to ceramics but it has to be said that players that I like, such as John Sykes, Gary Moore and Slash, there is a strong element of PAF tone where an Alnico magnet would help. Having said that, the C-Bomb does sound far more organic (to my ears at least based on clips) than other ceramic pups like say Painkiller or Miracle Man. Either way, I think it's getting to the stage where it's pretty marginal. I think that any of the pups I've mentioned could work well so it's down to just fine tuning and for that I rely on Tim.

I'm thinking that if it's an Alnico Nailbomb I'll keep it open poled but if it's a ceramic Nailbomb I'll go with a cover.

There's a hell of a lot of positive comments about the versatility of a Warpig and it does have a kind of 'Dirty Fingers' thing going on so I can see why you suggested it but all the clips you hear tend to just be crushing distortion. Hell, the thing sounds detuned even in standard!! Nevertheless, it does sound good so if Tim says Warpig, that is what it will be. I even wondered about the possibility of an Alnico Warpig without the DSP feature to lose some of the dominating bass and keep it tight but I suspect I'm being silly now  :? :shock: I'm convinced Tim will suggest either Nailbomb or Warpig, which probably means he'll suggest neither of them  :D

[ericsabbath]

I was talking about the alnico nailbomb
never tried the ceramic version
the cold sweat sounds very ceramic to my ears, and I doubt an overwound version of it would sound "less ceramic"

[Doadman]

I was talking about the alnico nailbomb
never tried the ceramic version
the cold sweat sounds very ceramic to my ears, and I doubt an overwound version of it would sound "less ceramic"

Sorry, you're right of course - my mistake. So as far as you're concerned, the best choice for me would be either an Alnico Nailbomb or a Ceramic Warpig. I can see the wisdom in both of these suggestions and I like the sound of both pickups so I really don't care which one Tim ultimately thinks is best. The neck and middle pickup choice will have to be driven by the choice of bridge pup as that is more important. I like the sound of the Slowhands as I need a single coil that will get as close as possible to a DiMarzio PAF as I want that creamy lead tone that Dave Murray used to have before he switched to Hotrails. If Tim says Nailbomb then the Slowhands should be ok but if he says Warpig I'll just have to get something else, I'm guessing either Trilogy Suites or Sinners. Unfortunately, as Tim seems super busy at the moment, it looks like this question will have to wait until the new year but that's hardly the end of the world.

[ericsabbath]

why not a les paul instead?  :D :D :D
that "sykes" edwards would do the job

[Doadman]

Unfortunately, while I love the sound of a Les Paul, I don't like playing them. Single cutaways have never appealed to me as I've never seen the point in making access to the upper frets more difficult than it needs to be. It's the same reason that I prefer a neck-thru construction. Once you add in my preference for a locking trem, my choices of guitar are actually quite limited. What makes it worse is that I am in no way a shredder but a guitar of that spec does tend to be a 'Metal' guitar. Perhaps in that respect the PRS Torero might have been a better choice for me as it's mahogany bodied and looks less 'Metal' but I can't really have any regrets as the Jackson is a lovely instrument to play and as they're both maple neck-thrus the mahogany body on the PRS probably would have made only a marginal difference to the tone. Either way I'd have been changing the pickups and at least with the Jackson I have pickups I can transfer to the Yamaha Pacifica I use as a backup   :)

[Nolly]

Have you considered using lower value pots? Perhaps Cold Sweats with 300kΩ pots could be interesting..

[Doadman]

I confess I have absolutely no idea how the value of the pots affect the sound except that I normally see 500k pots suggested for the kind of pickups I seem to gravitate towards. I assume that as you've mentioned the Cold Sweat, changing the pots to 300k would make the guitar less bright. From what I understand, making something like a Cold Sweat or Rebel Yell DSP would have a similar effect but then it would lose some of its tightness as well. I think I might be better starting off with the pickup that is already closest to what suits me and my guitar and then use things like pots and DSP to only tweak things if needed.

I'm hopeless at making decisions so I'm actually quite grateful that a lot of the BKP range seems more tailored towards Les Paul style guitars because it limits my choice so much. It's also why I like having complete trust in Tim and the members of this forum  :). The most popular suggestion has certainly been a Nailbomb with slightly more people siding with the Alnico version over the Ceramic for what I want. I'm also intrigued by Eric's suggestion of a C-Pig. The clips sound absolutely HUGE and one I listened to last night from the forum was ironically a recording of the song 'Cold Sweat' done with a Warpig in an Alder bodied Ran V and it actually produced a wonderful tone for that song. Heavier than the original for sure but not a billion miles away tonally. Unfortunately it used a Warpig for the rhythm and a Nailbomb for the lead and it would have been better if I could have heard the complete song done with a Warpig and then with the Nailbomb. The Nailbomb sounded a little thin next to the Warpig but if the rhythm had also used a Nailbomb I doubt it would have stood out as much. I can't wait for the new year to find out what Tim thinks. I know I'll be happy with whichever one I get but I equally know I'll feel a little disappointed at missing out on one of them. BKP just have so many good products!

[Nolly]

Yes, using a 300kΩ pot in place of a 500kΩ or higher will reduce the top end as though you've rolled your tone knob off a little. With a clear pickup like a Cold Sweat in a bright guitar, this shouldn't present any clarity issues but will prevent the top end from getting sibilant.
Either version of the Warpig would be suitable if you want a hot pickup that delivers a massive sound with tons of midrange grind.
Have you owned any BKPs yet? If not, I think you'll find the differences you are attempting to judge here are really rather small in that all of the range is extremely tight and clear.

However, no pickup is going to make your guitar sound like a Les Paul. The scale length, shape and construction are three incredibly important factors to the LP sound which you simply cannot replicate.

[Doadman]

The only Bare Knuckle pickups I've had are a calibrated set of Cold Sweats that I put in an Ibanez RGT42. That was a maple/walnut neck-thru with mahogany wings and while it was fairly bright, it wasn't intrusively so and seemed to work well. The Jackson I have at the moment is undoubtedly a brighter guitar, which is why I'm steering clear of the Cold Sweats this time and besides which, I want to try something new. It's a measure of how much I like BKP that I'm back again. I don't really want a single coil sound at all on the guitar (hence my earlier comment on the Slowhands) but I'd rather have a BKP single coil than anyone elses stacked humbucker. I'm sure they are all good pickups and in a way I feel like a bit of an arse dithering so much but the thick end of £250 on pickups is a hell of a lot of money for me so I want to make sure I get it right. I've listened to a lot of clips and it's confusing when the rigs obviously all differ but some do stand out for me:

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19648.0

Both clean and distorted, the sound here seems very impressive and I'm guessing that a Jackson Kelly isn't a million miles away from my SL3 tonally, though I accept there are still a lot of variables.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef3kVURwCdw

I don't know for sure but my guess would be that the Charvel in this clip is similar to mine tonally and again it sounds impressive. VERY tight and articulate. I might equally say that the Fender in this clip has tonal similarities to my guitar due to the maple and alder. Again, the tone is mightily impressive. Compared to the Nailbomb, the word for the Warpig that leaps to mind is 'BIG'. I don't know if the pickups in this clip are Alnico or Ceramic but they're bloody tight whichever they are. If they're Alnico V, I can't imagine how ceramics could be any tighter than that!

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20921.0

This is the clip I mentioned in my last post. Again, I like it because I'm guessing that the guitar used isn't a million miles away from mine tonally but it's equally confusing because I like both pickups and in this clip they're doing very different things. The rhythm part played with a C-Pig is crushingly huge and does remind me of the original recording of that song even if it is undoubtedly heavier. However, the squeals and lead done with the Nailbomb is also sublime. At first I thought it was a no-brainer because I assumed that the Nailbomb would be far more versatile and more likely to give me those Gibson PAF influenced tones that I seem to gravitate towards but the more I read about the Warpig, the more versatile it appears to be. I simply can't choose between them  :?

[Nolly]

I think the best advice I could give would be to wait until the new site goes live on January 3rd at midnight GMT - there are the best part of 200 new clips to listen to, and while I can't claim to have covered every possible angle, there should be plenty to make a comparative assessment of the range. :)