Yet another SG pickups thread

[BigB]

Hi there

My "christmas" SG ('80 SG Standard, not stock) is at the luthier for a full refret job, and I now have to decide which pups for it. It currently have the oh so common SH4 JB(J) bridge / SH2 Jazz neck, and saying I'm not fully satisfied with this set would be an understatement - no clarity, no definition, no dynamic, and the neck is just a BigBallOfMud. The one and only things I'd really like to keep are the bridge's low-mid growl and "blossoming" sustain when played with a decent amount of gain.


I play lots of stuff but mainly blues, classic rock, early hard-rock, punk-rock, grunge, fusion etc. I tend to use quite a lot of gain most of the time (Dano TCO1 => [ts808 clone | RAT clone] => Fender HRDx on the drive or more drive channel => 4x10 marshall 1965 cab) but a good clean/light crunch tone is still important to me. 

I've read the various SG threads here and listened to quite a few clips, and it looks like the RiffRaff are the "obvious choice" since I don't think I want to go hi-output pups.  I'm confident a RiffRaff bridge will give me that precision and clarity I'm after, *but* will it retain that low-mid growl and blossoming sustain, or should I still consider hi-output pups ?

I've also found the Stormy Wheather and MQ could be interesting options too, at least for the neck. Would one of these give me more clarity / definition / hi end sparkle than the RR neck ? FWIW, I mostly use the bridge for distorted tones and the neck for clean to bluesy crunch, whatever the guitar, since I find distortion+neck pups don't really cut through the mix (playing in a 2 guitars band).

So, my options so far are:

1/ RiffRaff set
2/ RiffRaff bridge / SM neck
3/ RiffRaff bridge / MQ neck
4/ what else ?-)


TIA

[ericsabbath]

the riff raff tends to the twangy bright side, not really the growly dark side

sounds like you would enjoy an alnico warpig in the bridge, but if you decide to go lower output, the black dog might work
he warpig is noticeably clearer than a JB, despite of being wound hotter

for the neck, I guess you'll be fine with a riff raff, maybe a mississippi queen, or even the new stockholm as a hotter alternative

[BigB]

the riff raff tends to the twangy bright side, not really the growly dark side

Well, I wouldn't mind a bit more twang and brightness as long as it still ROARS :mrgreen:

More seriously: keep in mind it's my first mahagony axe ever, and I guess this low-mid growl I'm talking about is at least partially built-in - FWIW, it's one of the reasons I wanted an SG at first, since I heard this on all decent SGs and neither my (all-maple) Vox nor my Tele have that.

Now as I said, I already find the JB to be way too dark and muddy and lifeless, and I'm looking for more clarity, definition and dynamics. Also, I'm definitly not into metal / doom / etc, and the more I play on "cooler" vintage-voiced pups the more I love them.  From Nolly's clips, I really think the RR bridge is able to stand up to my "max gain" settings. I'm a bit worried about loosing too much of that low-mid thing I really enjoy, but I'm not after more of it neither ;)

sounds like you would enjoy an alnico warpig in the bridge, but if you decide to go lower output, the black dog might work

Yeah, I thought about it (BD I mean) but I fear it would be too much on the low-end side. What about your own version of the RR bridge ?

[alendon]

A5 pigs are great in my sg and surprisingly versatile.
They are very heavy sounding but it's more the eq rather than the 22k dc that provides the grunt IMHO.
The pigs clean up well too but despite this there are maybe more suitable pups for the sounds your after .
My suggestion would be riff raffs or maybe mules.
I've got a4 mules in a vee and they can cope with just about anything I throw at them.

[ericsabbath]

the riff raff tends to the twangy bright side, not really the growly dark side

Well, I wouldn't mind a bit more twang and brightness as long as it still ROARS :mrgreen:

More seriously: keep in mind it's my first mahagony axe ever, and I guess this low-mid growl I'm talking about is at least partially built-in - FWIW, it's one of the reasons I wanted an SG at first, since I heard this on all decent SGs and neither my (all-maple) Vox nor my Tele have that.

Now as I said, I already find the JB to be way too dark and muddy and lifeless, and I'm looking for more clarity, definition and dynamics. Also, I'm definitly not into metal / doom / etc, and the more I play on "cooler" vintage-voiced pups the more I love them.  From Nolly's clips, I really think the RR bridge is able to stand up to my "max gain" settings. I'm a bit worried about loosing too much of that low-mid thing I really enjoy, but I'm not after more of it neither ;)

sounds like you would enjoy an alnico warpig in the bridge, but if you decide to go lower output, the black dog might work

Yeah, I thought about it (BD I mean) but I fear it would be too much on the low-end side. What about your own version of the RR bridge ?

my riff raff has a quite strong bass due to the thicker magnet, but the low and center mids aren't really fat
it was in a PRS McCarty that I sold
I just bought a heavily beaten up SG body on ebay to put it in

I don't think you would have a problem with the black dog low end, at least not in a SG

[BigB]

my riff raff has a quite strong bass due to the thicker magnet, but the low and center mids aren't really fat

Well, it's that much "fatness" that I'm after,  just not loosing that roaring character.

Ok, just got my SG back from the luthier yesterday and - unsurprisingly - the refret job really improved the tone :lol:. I was also lucky enough to have a chance to compare this one SG with two recent ones (a standard and a special) the guy had at his workshop. To make a long story short, plugged and unplugged, my SG was way darker than these two others, but also much more resonant, with a warm (but not muddy), lively woody tone, when the two other where brigther but felt really thin, stiff and lifeless. 

We also had a quick talk about pups and Julien (my luthier), who have a JB bridge on his own Les Paul,  was surprised how darker it sounded on mine, while the other SGs managed to sound brigther (and a bit harsh IMHO) despite the supposedly darker Gibson pups (don't know which it was, sorry).

AFAICT, this would confirm my impression that part of that low-mid growl comes from the guitar itself.  To be true, now the guitar is back to a "working state", I start to find the JB has some qualities - but it still lacks the definition, clarity and dynamics I came to love with BKPs. 

I don't think you would have a problem with the black dog low end, at least not in a SG

I'll check the BD again.

[Nolly]

Based on what you've said there, the Riff Raff will give you the clarity, dynamics and definition you're after, while the guitar will provide the growl and fatness.
Something I had forgotten until reading this thread is that we actually recorded a modern metal clip with Tim's Riff Raff-loaded Feline Explorer for comparison purposes. That Explorer is a very dark and bassy instrument, and in comparison with the Riff Raff clip we used for the website (done with Tim's '59 LP clone), the difference is massive. Hear for yourself:

Les Paul:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/790683/RR%20Modern%20LP.mp3

Explorer:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/790683/RR%20Modern%20EX.mp3

[BigB]

Based on what you've said there, the Riff Raff will give you the clarity, dynamics and definition you're after, while the guitar will provide the growl and fatness.
Something I had forgotten until reading this thread is that we actually recorded a modern metal clip with Tim's Riff Raff-loaded Feline Explorer for comparison purposes. That Explorer is a very dark and bassy instrument, and in comparison with the Riff Raff clip we used for the website (done with Tim's '59 LP clone), the difference is massive.

Nolly, you're the man ! Massive, indeed - if that's how the RR bridge sounds on a dark slab of mahogany, then it might well be what I'm after  :twisted:

I don't rule out the BD right now, but with what I know now of this SG and the clips you posted, I fear it would be too middy.

Now for the neck pup - I'm looking for maximum clarity / hi end details / "fluidity", something almost single-coilish. From the "clean tone" clips I'm not sure the RR neck would be the best match - at least compared with the SM, the Mule or the MQ necks. I know the MQ /SG is a proven, working combo but what about a Mule or SM neck on this guitar ? Your opinions, gentlemen ?

[Nolly]

Nolly, you're the man ! Massive, indeed - if that's how the RR bridge sounds on a dark slab of mahogany, then it might well be what I'm after  :twisted:

I don't rule out the BD right now, but with what I know now of this SG and the clips you posted, I fear it would be too middy.

Now for the neck pup - I'm looking for maximum clarity / hi end details / "fluidity", something almost single-coilish. From the "clean tone" clips I'm not sure the RR neck would be the best match - at least compared with the SM, the Mule or the MQ necks. I know the MQ /SG is a proven, working combo but what about a Mule or SM neck on this guitar ? Your opinions, gentlemen ?

Yes, I think the thing is that the Riff Raffs are going to reproduce the natural midrange response of your guitar fairly transparently. They would definitely be my first choice in your situation.
As for the neck, the Riff Raff neck is one of the brightest and clearest in the range, but the Mule would certainly make a great pairing, especially unpotted. The Mule and Riff Raff are essentially two flavours of the same sound, and if it's of any interest to you, Tim's number 1 guitar - the '59 clone mentioned above, is loaded with that same combination of RR bridge, Mule neck (both unpotted).
The SM neck could work too, but is smoother on top and softer in the bass... perhaps not what you're looking for.

[BigB]

As for the neck, the Riff Raff neck is one of the brightest and clearest in the range,

Uhu ? The Mule's neck sounded brighter to me on the clean clips.

but the Mule would certainly make a great pairing, especially unpotted. The Mule and Riff Raff are essentially two flavours of the same sound, and if it's of any interest to you, Tim's number 1 guitar - the '59 clone mentioned above, is loaded with that same combination of RR bridge, Mule neck (both unpotted).

I kinda like the AIV neck / AV bridge combo on my crawlers-loaded Vox, the in-between position is very interesting.

Now I'm not sure I'd go for unpotted pups - this is for rehearsal and live use in a somewhat loud playing band. How would *you* compare the Mule and RR necks ? (if I'm not asking too much...)

The SM neck could work too, but is smoother on top and softer in the bass... perhaps not what you're looking for.

Well, I've heard great things about the SM and heard a pleasing clip of a SM bridge on a SG - it had more bite than I would have expected -, but yes, perhaps the SM neck might be too smooth here.

Thanks again Nolly (and Eric & Alendon).

[Nolly]

Hmm, it's been a while since I revisited the clips, but in my experience the Riff Raff neck has a brighter and harder attack than the Mules, which in turn are more airy and open.
Under gain I feel the RR neck retains its attack entirely, giving a very toothy and articulate sound (for high gain, think Paul Gilbert), while the Mule becomes more tubular with more "bloom". The Mule is still very defined, mind, just not as ferocious as the Riff Raff is.

Tim also does an off-the-menu T-top set, which is essentially a minor modification to the Riff Raffs, taking the brightness up another notch. The neck pickup is astonishingly articulate, not for the faint-hearted -  truly nowhere to hide with that one. Tim matches the T-top neck up with bridge pickups as hot as the Painkiller or Miracle Man in his own Les Pauls.

[Philly Q]

Under gain I feel the RR neck retains its attack entirely, giving a very toothy and articulate sound (for high gain, think Paul Gilbert), while the Mule becomes more tubular with more "bloom". The Mule is still very defined, mind, just not as ferocious as the Riff Raff is.

You've convinced me I want to try the Mule neck now!

[BigB]

Ok, got the answer from The Master (err, sorry, I mean Tim): without much surprise, it's RR bridge / Mule neck. Gonna give it a try, we'll see if these babies fit my needs 8)

Thanks again gentlemen for your educated opinions, I'll be back when I'll have theses things on my SG.

[Nolly]

Great, looking forward hearing your thoughts!
Apologies Philly :lol:

[alendon]

You won't be disappointed with the mules.
The neck is my fave bk by a country mile!
It just has a sound that I could describe as so 'right' in that it sounds great on it's own or in a band mix.
The mule bridge and neck are both very balanced tonally with not too much or too little of anything freqwise.
The output is certainly enough for anything up to and including classic metal but they excel at blues and bluesy rock.
Mine are ina vee but I think they would be similar in an sg to be honest as it's similar woodwise.