Pickups getting closer - advice needed

[Slartibartfarst42]

I've not been around here all that long but you all seem like a really well informed bunch of musicians so I'd appreciate your advice. I started playing guitar late in life (I'm 46) and for the last few years I've been playing a Yamaha Pacifica but I'm getting better now, to the point where I've just joined a local Rock covers band  :D so thought I'd treat myself to a better guitar. Having thought about it for a while, this week I pulled the trigger on a mint condition Jackson SL3. I'm not really a shredder, I don't use the whammy too much and I prefer Les Paul kinda tones but what can I say, the guitar just felt 'right' and I reasoned that an upgrade to the pickups would get me a lot closer to the tone I'm after. At the moment I use a Peavey Vypyr 30 at home and a mate is lending me a DSL401 and a few pedals when I play with the band until I can get a gigging amp myself. That should happen later in the year and will be a Marshall JVM410. So, what am I looking for?

I'll point out straight off that I don't really want PRS pickups BUT I mention them because 'Hot, Fat and Screaming' does start to suggest what I want. For now I'll just stick to the bridge pickup as I'm not sure if I want to go true single coils for neck and middle or stacked ones, though I'm damn sure the Hotrails are going as they get awfully muddy. The stock JB in the bridge is OK but I just find it too thin and sterile. I want something with an aggressive edge to the bottom end that doesn't mush up and a fat, fluid and creamy lead tone. The bottom end of the JB has an aggressive edge to it but the sound isn't thick enough while the top end for solos is way too thin. I'm fed up of having to use a compressor to fatten it up to my tastes. In the past I've tended to gravitate to a more legatto style but recently I've been working hard on my alternate picking so it needs to be good for both and I'd also really like it to be good for pinched harmonics. I'm not that great at doing them yet but I do love the effect. I also don't want a pickup that is going to highlight my minor playing inaccuracies. I've found that my alternate picking sounds a lot better on the JB when I use the compressor but maybe that's simply a by-product of the fat fluidity it gives me. Overall, I like using distortion and I think I like the lead tone to be quite saturated (if that's the right word). Listening to clips and reading the forum, this is where I'm at now:

Warpig - Plenty thick enough  but probably OTT for a Rock covers band with a set list running from Feeder to Black Sabbath and Metallica.

Nailbomb - Seems to have the aggressive edge I like at the bottom end but not sure it's fat, fluid and creamy enough at the top.

Holydiver - Everyone raves about it's beautiful, fat lead tone so in that respect it sounds great but the EQ chart on the website gives it a lot of mids for a guitar that sounds quite middy to me anyway and I wondered if the bottom end would be a bit too tame and 'polite'.

Crawler - TBH, I wouldn't have thought of this one as the clips on the site did little for me but in the players section I found some great sounding clips with a really fat, fluid and singing lead tone.I also read a few posts that suggested it had an edgier bottom end than the Holydiver, though not that of the Nailbomb. My concern here is that it may not have enough to play Metal like Metallica, Sabbath, Maiden and certainly not modern stuff like A7X as a number of people seem to say it won't do Metal but it has to be said that it does sound nice in the players section and I'm a great Gary Moore Blues fan and I think it would be great for that. Overall, Gary Moore is probably my favourite player with great tone from Blues to Metal. A pickup that could do all that would be nice  :).

I'm sorry it's a long post but I reasoned this would be easier if you had lots of information. If I haven't been clear about anything or you need additional information, just let me know.

Many thanks

[Telerocker]

The Crawler is great in my swampashstrat, but more vintage sounding then the Holy Diver. I think the more agressive HD fits better to your musicstyle. Both provide fluid leadtones, but the bottomend of the HD will appeal more to you, I think. The Crawler could be too soft in the bass for you. The Nailbomb has more highs, don't know if this one fits your guitar/demands. So, HD gets my vote.

[Slartibartfarst42]

Ironically, I'd picked up that it was the Crawler that had a more aggressive low end than the Holydiver yet you seem to see it the other way around. I had assumed that it would probably be between the Holydiver and Nailbomb and the Crawler was the wild card as I thought it was between the two. Perhaps I was wrong. Clearly you see the bottom end of the HD as far more aggressive than I was giving it credit and the lead tones as rather fatter and more fluid than the NB. If it helps, although we do a wide range of music, that's because there is varied tastes in the band. Choices like Kasabian aren't mine and I confess I do Rock them up a bit. Underdog is now a far more Metal track than the original  :twisted:. My choices of bands were Thin Lizzy; Iron Maiden; Black Sabbath; UFO; Metallica; Motley Crue; Motorhead; Dio; Deep Purple; Gary Moore and Disturbed so I'm interested in those sounds far more than bands like Feeder. In most of these bands, you can assume I'm using more distortion than the original. If you think what Disturbed did to 'Land of Confusion' or Metallica did to 'Whisky in the Jar' you've got a fair idea of what I do.

Any more ideas or comments are very welcome.

[Telerocker]

The HD has less bass then The Crawler, but the lowend of the Crawler is smooth and round. The Crawler is for me a hotrodded vintagesound (blues, rock, heavy rock), where the HD is capable of doing metal as well. The HD will sound tighter on the bass, with emphasized mids and a nice, but not piercing topend. I would pick this one for the style you play.

[Alex]

The Holy Diver will sound a bit more fluid on the leads and the Nailbomb a bit darker, more aggressive. I find that both are not as tight on the low end as a stock Seymour Duncan JB (but overall sound a lot better).
The HD is quite open on the mids (which makes it so good for 80s rock/metal), whereas the Nailbomb is somewhat weird in that I find it has a hotrodded vintage feel to it. I find the description of the BK website that it has a "throaty mid range" to be spot on.
 
From what I've read I think either pickup would do fine, I'm just a bit confused that you say the Jackson is already middy sounding - I would not have thought that.

[Slartibartfarst42]

Well, the only other guitar I can compare it to is my Yamaha Pacifica but the Yamaha sounds very bright whereas the Jackson seems noticeably warmer and more mellow. Playing cleans through an amp, I really don't like the Yamaha as it's too bright and brittle sounding but on the Jackson, even with a JB, it sounds pretty good clean. Like you, I also naturally tend to think of Jacksons as bright and cutting so I'm assuming it's the maple neck-thru construction that's making it middier and taking off that brash edge I have on the Yamaha.

So far, feedback is much as I expected as I was pretty sure, based on my research, that it would be between the Nailbomb and Holydiver. The problem is that they both have characteristics I want. I like the bottom end to have a cutting, aggressive edge for the rhythms and absolutely no mud and this seems to suggest the Nailbomb but I also want fat, fluid, creamy leads and that would suggest the Holydiver. This is why in my original post I said my concern with the Holydiver was that it would be a bit too smooth and polite at the bottom and equally, my concern with the Nailbomb is that with all that modern aggressiveness, the leads just won't be thick and fluid enough. If only I could take the rhythms of one and the leads of the other!

[Telerocker]

The HD excels on fluid thick leads!

[darkbluemurder]

I find that both are not as tight on the low end as a stock Seymour Duncan JB

Sorry, I disagree here. I don't think there is a pickup sounding more muddy and thin at the same time than the JB.

(but overall sound a lot better).

This I can assure.

The HD is quite open on the mids (which makes it so good for 80s rock/metal), whereas the Nailbomb is somewhat weird in that I find it has a hotrodded vintage feel to it. I find the description of the BK website that it has a "throaty mid range" to be spot on.

I agree to these statements as well.

From what I've read I think either pickup would do fine, I'm just a bit confused that you say the Jackson is already middy sounding - I would not have thought that.

Agree here, too. Both pickups have solid lows that are not muddy and both would do the fat creamy leads. You cannot really go wrong with these choices. BTW: have you asked Tim for an opinion?

Cheers Stephan

[Slartibartfarst42]

Both pickups have solid lows that are not muddy and both would do the fat creamy leads. You cannot really go wrong with these choices.

I've not asked Tim about this yet as I didn't want to disturb him until I was sure this was what I was doing as my other option is to delay the new pickups and get the new amp instead. The amp will affect my tone more I guess and will certainly make gigging easier but if the band falls apart, as these things often do, I'm left with an amp I can't use practically in the home whereas I can always appreciate new pickups.

No wonder I've had a job picking just one pickup if they both do the job well. I notice from your signature that you own both and even you can't say which would be best. I assume that this is why relatively few people have responded to this thread; it's just too close to call between these two. The problem is, there are two questions here but I already know the answers.

1) Does a Holydiver have some articulate aggression and edge in the bottom end for Metal? Answer = yes, but the Nailbomb is a bit better.

2) Does the Nailbomb have thick, creamy and fluid leads? Answer = Yes, but the Holydiver is a bit better.

Assuming nobody else on the forum has any further words of wisdom and/or by some chance has tried both pickups in a maple thru-neck with alder wings, I'll justy have to decide if it's the amp or pickups first and then buy whichever one Tim says.

[ericsabbath]

having tried both and a lot others in my main guitar, I'd say they sound VERY different, which was unexpected for me at the time, since they have the same DC and magnet

the nailbomb is a lot more edgy on the top and a lot louder
it really pushes the amp hard for an alnico pickup
what bothered me about it is that it lacked upper mids, at least in my guitar
it had a decent amount of low and center mids, but smooth slightly scooped vintage sounding upper mids, instead of the in your face upper mids of the holy diver or even the cold sweat (which is somewhat mid scooped on the low midrange, but has quite present upper mids)
I was expecting exactly the opposite upper mid response when I bought it (I thought it was like a more upper mid focused Holy Diver)
on distorted power chords it sounded very focused and dense, almost like the miracle man, but more warm sounding
the leads were fluid, but always leaving that metal accent

the holy diver is plenty of attack, but doesn't have the loud high output push of the nailbomb, and sounds A LOT middier, specially in the center and upper mids
the nailbomb had more treble impression, due to its less pronounced upper mids, but the diver still sounded brighter
chords sound fatter and less dense, with a bit more string separation
leads are MIDDY, which makes it smoother
still has a lot of attack, but with that Eddie Van Halen/Jake E. Lee/Doug Aldrich/Jerry Cantrell greasy buttery feel instead of the metal edge of the nailbomb

they are quite different pickups

[Slartibartfarst42]

Thanks for that Eric, it's very much appreciated. It seems that the sounds are very different yet both could still do the job I'm after. Although I'm in a covers band, my first love is Metal as I am very much a child of the eighties, though I do also love playing Blues and I wouldn't say I'm trapped in my youth. Most of the songs I chose for the band are from the eighties and I guess that is my core tone but I play them with more distortion so I suppose you could say it's eighties Metal with a slightly more modern sound. I'd say the heaviest songs I play are 'Enter Sandman' and 'Land of Confusion' (the Disturbed version).

I am still a little confused however. IF I'm picking you up right, the Holydiver can get an aggressive edge at the bottom end that will cover a slightly more modern interpretation of Metal than I was brought up with but the Nailbomb will struggle a bit more to achieve those thick, fluid and creamy leads that I'm after. Conversely, by stressing how very 'middy' the Holydiver is, are you suggesting that it is too much for a maple thru-neck?

I am VERY wary of picking out a particular player as I want my own tone but if I had to, I'd say Gary Moore playing Rock/Metal on a Les Paul through a Marshall stack. Maybe John Sykes might be another one. In both cases the sound seems thick and fluid to me but with an edge to it. I doubt that helps but there you go  :roll:

[Slartibartfarst42]

Some Ebay sales have now gone through so I now have the money for my new pickups. The issue of whether I should buy the Holydiver or the Nailbomb is now obviously a more pressing one so if anyone else has any suggestions for the bridge I'd be very grateful. I will also write to Tim tonight.

This also now brings up the issue of what to do with the middle and neck pickups. AS I'm really not a fan of 60 cycle hum at all and I'm not particularly after a single coil sound, I was thinking of getting either Choppers, Pro Tracks or a mix of the two but I thought I'd also try to be open about the possibility of true single coils from Bare Knuckle.

For the neck I want a creamy lead sound very much like the early Dave Murray tone when he was using a PAF humbucker in the neck (hence the mention of Pro Tracks). I'd also like to to articulate right down to the bottom note and no mush as well as cleaning up well for a nice warm and articulate tone.

The middle pickup is never used by itself so can just be used to give me something a bit different to the bridge and neck positions.

My initial look on the website would suggest either Slowhands or Sinners as having the best chance of being what I want but I'm concerned the Slowhand won't be powerful enough (something I read of Antags) and the Sinner might be too hot. With single coils I really am ignorant though so I certainly need advice here. If you think the DiMarzio's would be better for what I want, I'd appreciate you simply telling me that rather than making tan expensive mistake but I will pay for the Bare Knuckles if it's the best option.

Many thanks

[Telerocker]

The Sinners will do big fat tones for a single coil, cause they have quite some bass. They're to my taste modern voiced, but clean up wonderful too. A HD/ Sinners combination will make it a powerfull guitar for several purposes. But: splitting the HD with the middle Sinner will not produce classic fender-quack. The middle Sinner is way hotter then the splitted HD. No point, if this combination is not important for you. You will see that BKP offers HSS-sets with HD and Irish Tours, cause they complement well in the second position. I like the IT's, but I think that's not what you're looking for. The Slowhands have bigger mids, but still have a vintagesound.

[Slartibartfarst42]

The concern with the Slowhands is that they just won't balance with either the HD or NB, though baseplates may help. As for splitting, I have no idea what the Jackson does at the moment but if splitting with a Sinner middle isn't possible, perhaps position 2 could be set to a parrellel bridge with the middle pickup. Would that be OK?

[Telerocker]

If you're talking about the second position they will balance better then Sinners. If you mean changing from bridge to middle solo then The Sinner will keep up with HD/NB when it comes to output.