weird news coverage of london tonight

[Elliot]

The trouble with that Mary Evans blog/article is that she seems to think that a minority of teenagers rioting and looting opens up the need for political dialogue amongst the [inevitably chattering] classes [only] but that the expression of local citizen anger when they call for the swift protection of their communities and the punishment of the transgressors of community norms is a bone headed closing down of political debate.  I can equally see the responses from annoyed citizens as a cry for a rethink of how communities are governed and what values and behaviour the community expects from those that live in it and recieve its aid and protection. 

Clearly, there are underlying causes that need to be addressed - the nature of urban overcrowding, the failure of the education system, community disclocation, rising unemployment, the psychological problems of consumerism, the breakdown of family and community relationships etc etc.  Obviously academics in politics departments like Professor Mary Evans have a vested interest in obtaining the next government/NGO grant to research why these thing went on but I am not convinced that the closed doors of academia are going to give people the practical output  they require - if there is to be some kind of dialogue/debate it really should be community centred, not just a means for academics to meet their required number of publication points in academic journals.   

I must also say that I had lunch with today with some public law barristers who were rubbing their hands over the possibility of a legal aid cheque from  a public enquiry.  I was slightly peturbed by this, but I suppose that where there's muck there's brass. 

[Philly Q]

I'm quite a lefty, but I've definitely had my assumptions challenged on this forum, and I think I'm a better person for it.

One thing I'll note about this debate: often we're talking at cross purposes.  Firstly, what causes a population to behave in this way, and secondly how you tactically deal with the result.  The two are different, I think.

Absolutely.  If we could get to the grass roots of the problem and solve it - which is obviously desirable - we won't actually see the benefits for 20-30 years (lefty).  But we also need a much more "instant" way of dealing with the current symptoms of that problem (righty!)

I'm instinctively a softy liberal (small L), I suppose..... but people who commit crimes of violence and intimidation - bullies, in simple terms - make me utterly furious.  I don't really care why they do what they do, it's too late to fix that..... just put them somewhere where they can't hurt anyone again!


Reminds me of a quote from the film Manhunter:

As a child, my heart bleeds for him. Someone took a little boy and turned him into a monster. But as an adult... as an adult, he's irredeemable............ As an adult, I think someone should blow the sick $%&# out of his socks.

[Roobubba]

Believe it or not, I am genuinely reasonable about a whole host of matters. Of course, I love to live up my persona online, as we all do to some extent. With that said, I might consider looting telecasters if the dire need was firewood, but only under those circumstances :D

And I am pretty squarely in the liberal camp politically speaking, but on certain issues, as Philly put it, I also get utterly furious. You're all just avoiding my solution because it's really rather right-wing, but you have to admit, burning all these arseholes and their arsehole parents (and capturing that energy as heat) has a hell of a lot of benefits to the rest of society, and really very few drawbacks!

:)

[tomjackson]

I'd like to summarise with some Red Dwarf quotes:-

Liberal (Rimmer who has lost his anger)

The time for talking is over. Now call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard and we hit it fast, with a major, and I mean major, leaflet campaign.

Right Wing (Lister who has lost his fear)

Why don't we go down to the ammunition stores, get the nuclear warheads and then strap one to my head? I'll nut the smeggers to oblivion!

[Dmoney]

Its like fire and ice, and I feel my role is to be kind of in the middle of that, kind of like lukewarm water.

[Afghan Dave]

Conservative
_________________________

Socialist

"there's a fine line between clever and stupid"  :)

[FELINEGUITARS]

I've always seen myself as a Liberal with socialist tendencies , but more and more I see Conservative attitudes in myself.

I'm probably like Roo and PhillyQ and it's when something angers me like the looting has....

I do wonder why so many seem to lack a MORAL COMPASS and lack a sense of right or wrong.

And before anyone jumps down my throat - Phone hacking, bribes for Police, Expenses fiddling and second homes for MPs all fail the Moral Compass test!

[MrBump]

It's fun to think about how we define ourselves politically.

I was always brought up to believe that left wing/socialist was good and noble, and right wing was nasty and bad.

But it's not that simple.

Like you Jon, as I get older (and wiser?) I definitely recognise Tebbit-like utterances falling from my lips.

My wife (also a lefty) came up with a cracking solution the other day:

Small amounts of a chemical castration drug should be secreted, at source, into all McDonalds products.  Because the Chavy underclass will spend disproportionately MORE time eating these products, they will, over time, reproduce less, thus ending the cycle of poverty and chavy-ness.

And she's a fan of Michael Foot!!!

 :D

[tomjackson]

Just looking at the online press this morning, lots of rioting news but hardly anything mentions what happened last night.  I would of though if it was quiet last night that should be the headline but I think they are still very much trying to keep the frenzy going.

There was a clip on BBC Manchester last night that didn't even say if it was from Wednesday or Tuesday.  A quick look at Facebook Manchester riot update told me all was quet last night and the clip was from Tuesday.
I media should be trying to cool things down, not making everybody think there's still mass riots...

[Ratrod]

I think a good start would be to hold people responsible and acountable for their own actions. Not putting the blame so much on society and making excuses because of one's race, religion, social status etc.

'Hanging with the wrong crowd' or 'rough chilhood' 'it's a cultural thing' are not always mitigating circumstances.

BTW, hasn't anyone blamed video games yet? Or hippedy hop?

[Dmoney]

yes people have blamed both those.

nobody is using these things as 'excuses' for the behoviour. nobody is trying to justify the actions or these people.
Who isn't holding them responsible for their actions?

Talking about what puts people into a mindset where they think doing these things is ok, isn't about creating excuses for them.

[ToneMonkey]

My (usually reliably informed) friend reckons that the London riots didn't start because that lad got shot. After the coppers shot the lad (and then tried to frame him), there was a peaceful protest and a march of about 300 people in the area to the local police station. Outside the station, the coppers formed a line......... to cut a long story short, they kicked the shite out of a 16 year old girl and this is what sparked it off. Some reports said that she was stood in front of the line, some say she threw a stone and others say she threw a bit of paper, either way it ended up with her being beaten with batons and stamped on.

After the initial reports, nothing was ever heard about this again on the news. He reckons they've got a D Notice on it.

He’s normally quite accurate on these things and to be honest, it sounds about right. Oh yeah, and I’m talking about the proper riots and not the kids trying to get new pairs of trainers.  :lol:

[Brow]

See that guy from Salford on the news?
saying he can't get jobs because of all the immigrants and what not, so he supports going and smashing shops up.

He didn't appear to be a clear thinking gent though.

I saw this too and had a bit of a rant about it to my girlfriend. Goes to show that some people in parts of the country are still breeding with vegetables  :lol:

I think it was on the same report where a woman with a few kids was being interviewed outside a shop and she was sticking up for it saying stuff like 'I can't blame them, they have nothing to look forward to etc' when a random guy chirped in over her shoulder and then they started having ana rgument over it. She eventually told the guy to 'jog on', it amused me somewhat  :D

[Dmoney]

I went to uni in salford.
I hardly saw police but I saw plenty of crazy kids and adults. I didn't live there, i commuted in.
In the first few weeks we had to have an orientation in how to go about our daily lives in salford with getting mugged, stabbed or raped. It was pretty wild.

The regeneration everyone bangs on about is around the Quays, were the BBC has moved a lot of its staff too. The BBC had to offer £2000 incentives to get some staff to move up there from London. Everytime someones says something good about Salford, its about the Quays. Salford precinct has always been a risky area to go into. I remember the Tesco there is security glass of the alchohol section inside the store. You had to get a member of staff to come unlock it if you wanted a beer.

I saw the footage, and it looks no different to how it was when I was at uni, and the locals attitudes seem the same. I wouldn't believe Cameron when he talks about how Salford has steadily improved, no doubt the Quays has but the other parts of Salford, the estates, are probably still as grim as they were 10years ago, if not longer.

[Elliot]

Despite my ranting the other night, partly to blow off steam and partly to wind NFE up and partly because I half believe what I said, I find that this a good set of web pages to get some ideas on matters pertaining to these issues (although it is for the US not we):

http://www.solutionsforamerica.org/index.html