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Author Topic: ISP Decimator  (Read 13015 times)

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2011, 04:33:50 PM »
It is only shady if you are going to DIY it and sell it and undercut the owner.

if you are doing it for personal interest and a general fun project that you can learn from i don't see a problem with it

Roobubba

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2011, 05:05:14 PM »
It is only shady if you are going to DIY it and sell it and undercut the owner.

if you are doing it for personal interest and a general fun project that you can learn from i don't see a problem with it
The difficulty comes when you then reproduce the blueprints (essentially) and distribute those. At what point is putting what is pretty much proprietary information in the public domain okay? I would suggest that while a patent is still in effect, that's not okay from a moral or legal standpoint. I haven't looked into this specifically (this case in particular, the law or what other people think about it), I'm just voicing my concerns, because where people do a good job, treat their customers well and are genuinely decent people - as is definitely my experience of ISP technologies - I'd like to be a person who stands up for them.

JacksonRR

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2011, 05:09:54 PM »
Exactly. It's always comes back to money. Those with the curiosity will always be taking things apart and replicating. It's just a hobby on top of another hobby.

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2011, 05:13:17 PM »
It is only shady if you are going to DIY it and sell it and undercut the owner.

if you are doing it for personal interest and a general fun project that you can learn from i don't see a problem with it

I see exactly where you are coming from but this always happens.

Look at say the Soldano SLO if that hadnt been ripped apart there would be no 5150 or rectumfryers

Its just how things evolve & grow or devolve in the above situation
The difficulty comes when you then reproduce the blueprints (essentially) and distribute those. At what point is putting what is pretty much proprietary information in the public domain okay? I would suggest that while a patent is still in effect, that's not okay from a moral or legal standpoint. I haven't looked into this specifically (this case in particular, the law or what other people think about it), I'm just voicing my concerns, because where people do a good job, treat their customers well and are genuinely decent people - as is definitely my experience of ISP technologies - I'd like to be a person who stands up for them.

juansolo

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 08:59:08 PM »
It's an ethics thing, and always something that gets heated in the DIY community.

For the Decimator it's a very reasonably priced pedal and is currently commercially available. IMO building them and selling them would be ethically wrong.

Every pedal I have, I have built. I like building pedals. It's how you work out how they work and what they are. I would not have bought an Decimator, I don't really have a use for one. But I wanted to make one... I'll make one for me and Cleggy (who makes the pedals with me) and that's as far as it'd go.

Things that I consider are 'ok' is building and selling circuits that are no longer in production. However you're on shady ground is what you're on when you start replicating booootique pedals. A HUGE amount of them are variations on old circuits. Those, IMO, are fair game. They're just doing what any other DIYer is doing and complaining about it is stupid. Original pedals that are in production are verboten IMO for selling on. Make 'em for yourself by all means. But don't flog 'em.

However... we also have the vastly over priced or unobtainables. The money Klon's change hands for is frankly idiotic. No pedal is that good. However it is a very good pedal that few people can actually lay their hands on (you could buy my Merc off me for the prices I've seen them go for). I've made a few Klone's for people. If I was rampantly profiting out of them I'd almost feel guilty. But I'm not and in fact I've stopped anyhow. This I suspect is the bit that gets most people riled.

Selling odd one's to friends is ok IMO. Certainly if you're not taking the piss price wise. I literally charge for parts and time. I'm not making a living out of it, some people are and I woudn't like to see them losing out.

Certainly if I do eventually try to make a living out of it, I wouldn't have a problem with the DIY community making clones of any of our designs. In fact one that I fancy having a go flogging is out there already for others to build. The best boutique makers recognise this and support DIYers and DIYers in return tend to respect that. Those that kick off (usually the ones that have had their pedal de-gooped only to find it's another tube screamer...) really should wind their necks in a bit and realise that a bunch of pedal geeks isn't going to hurt their profits. Athough they might find the discovery of what their pedal actually is, a little embarrasing. Danelectro cloning your pedal and turning it out for £40 a pop will hurt your profits however... (this has happened more than once).

So for the Decimator, I'd say, yup, go for it. Make your own. But trundling out a batch and selling them on for profit, especially when you can snag one 2nd hand for £60 and not much more new, would be a little off-side.

A very important point was made on the Fuzz documentary. Gear's value to a musician is basically how much he can sell it on for when he needs the cash ;) Names sell, clones don't.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 10:15:54 PM by juansolo »
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juansolo

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2011, 09:06:59 PM »
It is only shady if you are going to DIY it and sell it and undercut the owner.

if you are doing it for personal interest and a general fun project that you can learn from i don't see a problem with it
The difficulty comes when you then reproduce the blueprints (essentially) and distribute those. At what point is putting what is pretty much proprietary information in the public domain okay? I would suggest that while a patent is still in effect, that's not okay from a moral or legal standpoint. I haven't looked into this specifically (this case in particular, the law or what other people think about it), I'm just voicing my concerns, because where people do a good job, treat their customers well and are genuinely decent people - as is definitely my experience of ISP technologies - I'd like to be a person who stands up for them.

Legally, PCB's are copyright as artwork. Therefore reverse engineering a pedal, creating your own schematic and PCB is perfectly legal. You cannot copyright a circuit. It's very hard to do that. shiteety law, but it allows things like that decimator board to be legally created. Indeed it's how AMD make processors.

Totally agree with you on the ethics however. But before people get all Daily Mail on the DIY community, as has happened with a few evangelical types on TGP and some Boutique forums before, I'd like them to realise that people DIYing clones isn't the issue. It's mass produced chinese knock-offs that are the real problem. DIYers are mostly harmless geeks building stuff for shitees and giggles. There are a lot of enlightened Boutique makers that realise this and can be found in the DIY community and even encourage and participate in it. Sadly there are a few who think that we're terrorists (I kid you not)... That doesn't really endear us to them.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 09:13:32 PM by juansolo »
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JacksonRR

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 09:54:14 PM »
A ProRackG does sell for several multitudes of the cost of a DIY build. I'm not going to pretend some of my wanting isn't coming from that, but as I said before, I'm not selling mine or anything else related for a profit. I'm doing it to produce a better version of what they sell. Yes, a person could potentially undercut ISP by either charging less or using much better components and charging the same. Any production unit can be made much better. Even an SLO, as great as they are, can benefit from additional work if the owner thinks it's worth it.


I had an e-mail in my box when I got home today. I'm going to have to produce Gerber files to keep this as cheap as possible. I don't mind redoing the layout, but I'll see about contacting the original PCB artist and see if he can move things along faster than that.

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 10:01:15 PM »
. Any production unit can be made much better. Even an SLO, as great as they are, can benefit from additional work if the owner thinks it's worth it.

I agree whilst i loved my clone as it was stock a few tweaks here and there got it exactly where i wanted it.

And im going to do a rebuild on turrets for further & easier modding

JacksonRR

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2011, 07:52:16 PM »
I've started a new thread in Tech for the DIY PCBs that are in the works.

juansolo

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2011, 07:04:28 PM »
Photo came out a bit wierd (it actually doesn't look spotty. I suspect that's the metalic bits reflecting as it's on a silver box), but here it is now boxed:

Edit: Took a better picture...



« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 08:01:14 PM by juansolo »
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JacksonRR

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2011, 07:35:11 PM »
Looks good and a fitting graphic. I like how she's all, "Shhhhhh." Much more classy than a ball gag, though a screenshot from Pulp Fiction might do the job as well.

juansolo

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2011, 07:49:53 PM »
Looks good and a fitting graphic. I like how she's all, "Shhhhhh." Much more classy than a ball gag, though a screenshot from Pulp Fiction might do the job as well.

LOL!
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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2011, 06:42:57 PM »
If you run an effects loop, as well as effects before your amps input, then I highly recommend the Decimator G-string. It is a little pricey, but it's worth it if you have the cash. It has very fast tracking for staccato playing, and doesn't mess with you're tone one bit. It allows you to switch from distortion to clean, without having to adjust the threshold or turn on/off the unit, which is a great feature (unless you enjoy tap dancing). The threshold is VERY sensitive, so if you get it dialed in, a piece of tape will prevent the pot from turning during transport to a gig, or accidentally bumping it with your foot. It gates the amp noise, and the noise from any other pedals. My only qualm is having to run 4 1/4 cables through one pedal. Build your own cables if you can. This is the most important pedal in my rig, and in my rhythm guitarist's rig. The G-string version is not necessary if you don't run an effects loop. Hope this helps!
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tomjackson

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2011, 09:54:43 PM »

Funny how we are talking about the morality of copying the design of a company who have done an exact copy of a Boss case for their pedals :D

juansolo

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Re: ISP Decimator
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2011, 10:21:27 PM »
Oh the FX circuit is rife with huge dollops of hypocrisy. I remember a certain boutique makers followers going mental that someone was selling a clone of one of his pedals. Properly mental over on the makers forum and TGP. The boutique pedal in question was essentially tweaked fuzz face*  

Very little out there is truly original. Even if it is, it's likely to have borrowed bits in it. Which I have no problem with, as long as no one makes out that it's the 2nd coming.



*and IMO, shat.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 10:00:06 PM by juansolo »
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