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Author Topic: Dale Farm  (Read 36182 times)

nfe

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 03:02:48 PM »
Let them find somewhere & buy it... let them be happy... Ensure they observe EXACTLY the same laws as the settled community (the same laws they are happy to exploit) and ensure they pay the same taxes as the rest of our diverse multi-racial country and I'm 100% with you.

Give them ANY special treatment based on their self serving interpretation of "culture" ?

F**K RIGHT OFF!

http://youtu.be/TOSZwEwl_1Q

These f**kers aren't even "gypsies" (Romani a genuine race) but they are Tramps And Thieves.


The whole first paragraph, that's what they want. They buy lots of land. The have been actively  They are refused planning permission out of hand on 90% of it.

"Gypsy" is not exclusive to Romani and Roma people.

Tramps and thieves? The entire community? On what basis do you make that statement?

This eviction is simply racist.

Those kids have been going to schools around there for years. There is no sense in using such police force to evict famlies with small children from their homes on property that they own.


The same schools that they have shown the nationwide highest truancy rates since these people bothered placing the kid names on the register?

Oh, and this same community who do not believe in educating their daughters equally?

Sexism is OK is it so long as it is in their "culture"?

Would you be keen to go to school regularly (or to send your children there) when a significant proportion of the school population (and the community they come from) have had it ingrained that your society is, to a person, scum?

General illiteracy is a problem amongst traveling peoples (of all ethnicities) no doubt. Extreme patriarchy is oft brought up, but other than anecdotal evidence (from good strong sources like My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding and The Daily Mail) I've seen little said to actually demonstrate it, and my experience of them, which is admittedly limited - went to school with a few, see some in the pub whenever I'm home, some of my family went to chapel with travelers so we'd meet now and again - is actually of a pretty overtly matriarchal society. The traditional totalitarian Catholic grandmother type affair :lol: Of course, I'm able to grasp this can't be assumed to apply to a whole ethnicity...

All that said. What that has sexism to do with the topic at hand?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 03:05:47 PM by nfe »

blue

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 03:15:04 PM »


edit 2: but due to some increasingly bias media coverage of this whole story, its in fact impossible for me to make a judgement about the whole issue.

i'd be agreeing with that.  it's very difficult to figure out the whole truth of the situation.  and it's had all sense taken away from it with the heavy handed approach of the council and police and the inflammatory presence of completely unconnected protesters. a lot of the actual residents cleared out this morning, and it's these protesters that are fighting the police.

what rarely gets mentioned is that half of the site is completely legal, they're being evicted from the other part.  surely the legal part already being there would be seen as grounds to grant permission for an extension?  it certainly would if it was a big, rich, respectable supermarket
cry HAVOC!! and let slip the pigs of war!!!

Afghan Dave

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 03:27:14 PM »
Sexism, tenancy, tax avoidance, criminality, fly tipping... "badly tar-maced drives, in this country" ....

We should just ignore any of these societally damaging issues if apparent in the traveler community... because it's their culture.

OK, I'm fine with that..

Simple

Please don't steal electricity, use the NHS or schools, appeal to the law courts or be protected by a standing British army... Grow your own food and live on a self sufficient small holding...

OH Yeah, it can't be done in the modern world can it?




« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 03:31:12 PM by Afghan Dave »
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nfe

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2011, 03:37:54 PM »
Best evict the upper echelons of virtually all large business too, then?

Nobody is saying any of these should be ignored. They should all absolutely be tackled. The problem is relating these issues to an entire community.

What other minority communities have higher than average rates of criminality? Oh yeah, all of them! Would you be so derisive of black people? Or just the bad segments of their community? Probably the latter. But it's ok to knock ALL travelers.

Guess what, you almost certainly deal with travelers (be they nomadic or settled) on a regular basis and think they're lovely folks. But then they don't go to the effort of wearing "I'm a Gypo" badges to make sure you know they're definitely a wife-beating thief :roll:

Afghan Dave

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 03:57:06 PM »

I'm 100% with you! No fear nor favour should be shown.

The filth rich avoid more tax than the poor ever defraud via benefit claims... Hit the non-doms hard first and work down the list.

The problem is relating these issues to an entire community.

They're not!

The legal portion of Dale Farm "travellers" are being left alone!

The opportunist illegal settlement (about 60% of the total numbers) are being evicted after 10 YEARS of appeals.

Pretty fair as far as I can see.

Rich or poor criminals, Black or AFGHAN criminals... ANY fricken criminals do not get special consideration.



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nfe

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 04:04:31 PM »
Yes, the legal half of Dale Farm is fine. The illegal half is only illegal because it is travelers who want to live there. That's the problem. They're only opportunists in that having been relentlessly knocked back for planning permission on land they owned, they decided to built and apply retroactively (legal) but were again refused. So that they'd at least have homes for a while whilst they looked for other places to live but continue to be refused all the time. They DO NOT WANT to live illegally and have been ACTIVELY SEEKING NEW HOMES for a decade but councils simply refuse to grant planning permission to these people anywhere.

Absurd amounts of money would be saved by simply granting planning permission, but Basildon council wont grant it because of who they are. So instead of just giving them planning permission, making them ABLE to pay council tax, removing a huge part of the divide between them and the settled community and thereby massively improving integration and saving years of legal nonsense, they figure "Theiving pikeys, get rid, get rid!" like a bunch of spectacularly bigoted morons.

WezV

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2011, 04:26:43 PM »
Quote

Those kids have been going to schools around there for years. There is no sense in using such police force to evict famlies with small children from their homes on property that they own.


The same schools that they have shown the nationwide highest truancy rates since these people bothered placing the kid names on the register?


Would you be keen to go to school regularly (or to send your children there) when a significant proportion of the school population (and the community they come from) have had it ingrained that your society is, to a person, scum?

there is another issue that strongly affects the truancy rates.  When you tell an 11 year old traveller they are allowed to make all their own decisions about their life from now on - chances are they wont choose to stay at school.  although it often works the other way too, with children being kept away from school as they can be more use at home.

So, there is a bit of a cultural thing about when you become and 'Adult' able to make your own decisions.  This can isolate some traveller children from their peers as hey often have many more responsibilities at a young age compared to the average 11 year old.  

this is coupled with a negative view of education within the culture due to years of racism, misunderstanding and often simple naivety  (a lot of the current traveller parents/grandparents will not have attended school at all).  luckily these attitudes are changing, albeit slowly

the problem is made worse by the lack of relevance for traveller children,  but you could say that about a lot of kids.

i have a friend who worked with the local traveller community to encourage school attendance.  the job was mainly split into educating parents about the benefits of education for their children's lifestyle,  getting schools to understand that the students may have other responsibilities which prevent them from attending school all the time, and educating teachers about the needs and expectations of those students
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 04:29:08 PM by WezV »

Afghan Dave

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2011, 05:42:17 PM »
So, let's get this right...

We skip over the part where they DID get planning permission.
That doesn't count because they didn't get ALL the planning permission they want? On green belt (let's not argue if it was a scr@p yard - legally it WAS green belt)

This land was bought for peanuts - no reflection of its value if sold with development in mind.

For arguments sake, a traveller buys a plot for £100.000 then applies for retrospective planning permission supported on grounds that "planning committees are institutionally racist" - this is granted and sets a precedent.

Plot now worth £10 million plus..

Traveller sells to the billionaire Candy Brothers to build luxury apartments in the Stock Broker belt.

Travellers move on because "travelling is part of our cultural identity" with £9,900,000 profit in the back pocket.

Repeat....

And OF COURSE the travellers will pay capital gains tax & the Candy brothers are based in Monaco with incorporation in the Cayman Islands.

EVERYONE'S A WINNER!!  PDT_038
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nfe

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2011, 06:02:42 PM »
We don't skip over their getting planning permission on the settled part. I was clear that the problem arose with legislation from 1994 - which the legal half far precedes. It was at that point, when councils were no longer required to provide land for travelers to live on, that the refusal of planning permission started en masse. The idea was that the councils wouldn't need to bother and the travelers would buy and settle land and everyone was happy with that, until everyone just told them no.

It is not a case of them not getting ALL the planning they want, it's the fact that EIGHT TIMES as many (as a %) traveler applications get denied as those from settled people.

The land was bought at extremely low cost, yes. Because they decided instead of buying land earmarked for development (which they had been doing to no avail) they'd by other land, build on it, apply for permission afterwards and even if it got denied, they reckoned that by the time it all went through they'd have gotten permission for somewhere. They've paid massive money for lots of sites which they get refused planning permission on.

Does that make it ok? No, but it makes it totally understandable.

tomjackson

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2011, 06:03:45 PM »

I heard a spokeswoman from the site say that they had been offered houses by the council but they did not want them as they were travellers and didn't want to be rooted down (which would violate their human rights and dissolve their culture)

What they do is buy cheap land, lots of it and then erect huge houses on there without planning permission.
Nobody else buys it because they know they won't get planning in green belt and if they would they would have to buy it at full price.  So they buy the land and then try to apply retrospectively.  That's the reason 90% gets knocked back.  The settled comunnity get's 90% accepted becuase they are mainly extensions on existing dwellings in urban areas or new dwelling in brown field plots. 

Afghan Dave

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2011, 06:08:31 PM »
Thank you!

How about this for a novel idea... buy a F**king house on the open market and live in it!

Or do we approve of ghettos or segregation if it's elective and part of your "culture" ?
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Dmoney

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2011, 06:09:44 PM »
I blame Thatcher

Elliot

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2011, 08:35:22 PM »

:}
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 09:06:54 PM by Elliot »
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gwEm

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2011, 10:00:16 AM »
Following up on the discussion with Blue

I watched the TV news coverage of this last night, and was relatively happy with the way the police handled the situation. Considering the footage of quite violent resistance to the eviction there were in fact very few injuries.

Now this morning I read in the papers all kinds stories of heavy handed police approach, which seems a bit rich, considering the protestors were throwing bricks, iron bars, and setting fire to things.

More and more I become disillusioned with todays media.
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mikeluke

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Re: Dale Farm
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2011, 10:32:04 AM »
Now - forgive me for being very simplistic here but....

Most of these travellers are actually IRISH...

So where does this cultural identity, heritage fit in? They did not get Irish accents by living in Essex...

If they don't like the UK rule - go back to Ireland - there are plenty of green fields to park your caravans in over there...
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