Strike!!!

[Philly Q]

NFE & the AFGHAN totally Agree!!

I got confused by the political debate, but..... Good Lord in Heaven!  :o

[Afghan Dave]

Exhibit A

http://youtu.be/6o8-eLZhrOA

Vs

Exhibit B

http://youtu.be/1bGOgY1CmiU

 PDT_041 PDT_043 PDT_047

[Dmoney]

go stevie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZEGHnAxEpo

[Philly Q]

Exhibit A

http://youtu.be/6o8-eLZhrOA

Vs

Exhibit B

http://youtu.be/1bGOgY1CmiU

 PDT_041 PDT_043 PDT_047

I'd have to declare that a draw.  A sugary bilge draw.

[plastercaster]

Err, yep!  The government was formed as per the voting rules, so they have the power to do what they think is right.

I find this more than an alarming statement.

I'll admit I'm not interested in politics in the slightest, but to my layman eyes that's how I see it.

So educate me - why is it a "more than alarming statement"?

Well, unless you believe that governments are put in place by some higher power, you must admit that the people elected to power have only a vague semblance of the public that elect them.

In 2005, the labour party had a huge majority in the commons on the basis of just 40.7% of the vote (in contrast, the Nazis gained 43.9% of the vote in the 1933 elections). To be fair your statement only said "they have the power to do what they think is right", which is factually correct, but assuming you approve of it...

Labour had a mandate to rule under the terms of the British Constitution, but they certainly didn't have a moral justification to do whatever the hell they please; on the contrary: the people have a duty to restrain their government if the people believe the government is acting in a manner that is contrary to the interests of the population it represents.

Your attitude thus far seems to be along the lines of "them's the rules - play the game", to which I have two responses:

1) Judging by your impressive guitar collection, the game's treating you quite well at present. long may that continue. However, it's not as easy for those at the bottom to blithely accept the status quo.

2) If the rules of the game are cr@p, stop playing by them. Capitalism is not holy writ; it's just the system of distribution that looks most sensible to most people at the moment. If people feel that the system of distribution is unjust or inadequate, damn right they should be peacefully working towards a better arrangement, through strikes, civil disobedience or whatever.

Credit to NFE and Afghan for intelligent input and congratulations on your newfound fraternity!

[Twinfan]

1)  "The game" isn't treating me quite well at present.  Working hard when younger to get qualifications, being good at my job, and there being demand for my skills is what's treating me well.  It has nothing to do with the current, previous or future governments.

2)  The recent civil disobedience caused damage to good hard working and honest businesses, and in no way can that be justified.

Anyway, I'm off to play guitar  ;)

[Afghan Dave]

I hope we can all refrain from personalising the discussion.

Legitimate strikes will always negativly affect some innocent parties but when done for the right reasons it is for the "greater good" (horrible phrase I know).

The idea that "there is no such thing as society" (which is in fact a misquote of Thatcher) is at play throughout this discussion.

People need to work in concert when the individual is poor, week or marginalised.

I may be occasionally inconvienienced by a strike I have no involvement in but others have been in the past and I live within a social fabric that has greatly benefited from many acts of civil disobedience.

Im sure Rosa Parks really inconvienienced other bus passengers and delayed their journey but I think it was the right thing to do under the circumstances.  :? :)

[plastercaster]

1)  "The game" isn't treating me quite well at present.  Working hard when younger to get qualifications, being good at my job, and there being demand for my skills is what's treating me well.  It has nothing to do with the current, previous or future governments.

2)  The recent civil disobedience caused damage to good hard working and honest businesses, and in no way can that be justified.

Anyway, I'm off to play guitar  ;)

Sorry for the personal comment- I'll speak on general terms from here on in.

It is true that an individual can work hard, get qualified and do well in life, and if hard work and talent were the only factors determining wealth I'd have no problem with the current level of inequality. But there are millions of people who work hard and are now unemployed because of slumps in demand beyond their control. There's no point saying they should work harder or move to another career- if you've spent a lifetime working in construction your skillset is unnecessary across the western world at present.

As for the role of government in individual prosperity, most people are educated by the state. That's the most obvious effect, but if you work in Britain your job security is probably not many steps removed from the demand created by government contracts and public sector workers. Those who aren't state educated tend to owe their wealth to a different exterior force: the good fortune to be born to parents wealthy enough to educate them privately.

In short, though it's perfectly possible to be the architect of ones own poverty, nobody can really take sole credit for their wealth; it's dependent on government and your family and the chaotic whims of the stock market and a host of other factors...

As an aside, when I said civil disobedience I was referring to targeted sit-ins and occupations for a political end, certainly not the stupidity that erupted in London over the summer.

Enjoy your guitar playing  8)

[Twinfan]

It is true that an individual can work hard, get qualified and do well in life, and if hard work and talent were the only factors determining wealth I'd have no problem with the current level of inequality. But there are millions of people who work hard and are now unemployed because of slumps in demand beyond their control. There's no point saying they should work harder or move to another career- if you've spent a lifetime working in construction your skillset is unnecessary across the western world at present.

True, so what I'm saying is change career and retrain where there is demand - household plumbing/electrician, broadband cable installation? - rather than complain about the lack of construction work.  You have to stand up and grab life by the horns?

Clearly there's many reasons why I'm not into politics!  :lol:

[Transcend]

It is true that an individual can work hard, get qualified and do well in life, and if hard work and talent were the only factors determining wealth I'd have no problem with the current level of inequality. But there are millions of people who work hard and are now unemployed because of slumps in demand beyond their control. There's no point saying they should work harder or move to another career- if you've spent a lifetime working in construction your skillset is unnecessary across the western world at present.

True, so what I'm saying is change career and retrain where there is demand - household plumbing/electrician, broadband cable installation? - rather than complain about the lack of construction work.  You have to stand up and grab life by the horns?

Clearly there's many reasons why I'm not into politics!  :lol:

If you dont have the money you cant really retrain though

[Dmoney]

Exactly Toe-Knee.
when areas that have been traditional homes of manufacturing its hard to expect generations of people to retrain for jobs.  What about age too. If loose your job I bet its not only much harder to retrain but also to get a new job once you've finished retraining. If you have a family to support while retraining its probably harder still.

I see it in northern cities a lot. For example Holbeck in leeds is an area where people would have traditionally done manual jobs, but while knocking the area down... new office blocks have been built close by that contain nothing... hoping to attract businesses to set up shop i guess, but the local population don't have the skill set to do the jobs people are attempting to bring to their area.

Government are complicit in the lack of manufacturing jobs. We now have this initiative to finish some roads, or build more railway lines or whatever that was recently announced. However a few months ago, the Government gave a contract to build a bunch of new trains away to a german company, when it would have guaranteed jobs here in the UK if it had gone to the British company that expected to win the contract. They constantly give with one hand while taking away with the other... but they don't seem to be taking too much from bankers, or tightening up on legal tax loopholes for companies like Vodaphone, or sorting out the TERRIBLE waste of money that are Public Finance Initiatives.