Strike!!!

[Afghan Dave]

We should all remember that sanctity of contract was pleaded by the government (admittedly the last one) as the reason why the bankers at banks that the tax payers had to bail out still got their bonuses.  Perhaps the difference is one of magnitude - you can risk taking legal action against the government if the breach of contract is going to pay out £1million but not if it is £6k.

I was SO hoping someone would mention this exact distinction. Thank you.

I'm all for free markets, red in tooth and claw but we haven't seen that up till now. The money had to be found to honour the contracts of the bailed out banks/bankers.

We are not seeing an even playing field.

Sure, don't offer "NEW" public sector employees the same terms and conditions but the Govt should honour the established deal.  

I think it is a case of divide and conquer & we really shouldn't let it happen.

I hated the dinosaur unions of the 80s but I believe reformed unions are vital to the welfare of the working man.

Just because the private sector is woefully underrepresented by unions doesn't mean it should be a race to the bottom for ALL workers.

As a percentage of GDP the current pay/pension deal the public sector workers are striking to protect is affordable but that fact gets lost in the rhetoric.

All this at a time when the senior execs & bosses have seen unimaginable pay increases.

Please don't lets fool ourselves with the idea that we "all have a field marshalls batton in our sack"

YOU WILL NOT be in the 1%

[mikeluke]

I love this type of thread....

So - question - the guy who is earning £60K in the public sector - what would be his annual pension when he retires?

Let's say he is a 'lifer' and starts at 21 and finishes at 66 (just humour me with the calculation for a moment) - he would have 45/60 or 75% of his salary as a pension - £45K a year. Let's just say that someone with a private pension wants to have the same level of pension - at current annuity rates they would need about £800-900,000 in their pension pot!

Don't know about you - but looking at my pension, and given the state of the stock market - does not look anywhere near £900K....

[Afghan Dave]

I love this type of thread....

So - question - the guy who is earning £60K in the public sector - what would be his annual pension when he retires?

Let's say he is a 'lifer' and starts at 21 and finishes at 66 (just humour me with the calculation for a moment) - he would have 45/60 or 75% of his salary as a pension - £45K a year. Let's just say that someone with a private pension wants to have the same level of pension - at current annuity rates they would need about £800-900,000 in their pension pot!

Don't know about you - but looking at my pension, and given the state of the stock market - does not look anywhere near £900K....

Pick any F**ked up anomally you want. I'm not going to defend it. You can cherry pick unsympathetic characters all you want.

I myself support free markets - the state should only intervine in markets to break up monopolies or cartels = LET BAD BANKS FAIL.

ALL State pensions are a ponzi scheme.

But...

Do you believe in contracts?

[mikeluke]

Yes, I do - but I also believe that contracts can be renegotiated and amended

[JDC]

Didn't know you could look up annuity rates! Thanks for that (Bugger I need even more than I thought)

Instead of cutting pensions they should scr@p winter fuel allowance for people who don't need it... oh wait that will harm votes.

[nfe]

Err, yep!  The government was formed as per the voting rules, so they have the power to do what they think is right.

I find this more than an alarming statement.

I'll admit I'm not interested in politics in the slightest, but to my layman eyes that's how I see it.

So educate me - why is it a "more than alarming statement"?
[/quote]

Because parties are voted in on the basis of what they say before their election. They have no mandate to do things that contradict it. It's why manifestos should be legally binding (with exceptions based around unforeseeable circumstances, obviously).

For instance, A colossal part of the vote for the LD at the last election is on the basis of a signed pledge not to raise (and to oppose any) raise in tuition fees. It is therefore absolutely appropriate for let down voters to protest their backtracking on the issue.

That's quite aside from concerns about vastly more significant issues like war.

[Dr. Stein]

I'm kind of in Twinfan's camp here. If someone who doesn't know what they're talking about starts telling me how I should be doing my job I'll tell them where to go. Why is it different with politicians - why does the general public think they have the right to tell politicians how to run the country?

I also don't see the issue with politicians changing their minds. Again that's something we all do all the time, and rightly so. Circumstances change, new information comes to light - normally it's seen as a sign of strength when somebody is able to turn around and admit they were wrong.

[JacksonRR]

I fully support Afghan's views. Anytime Government can be made smaller is preferable in my opinion. Less hands for money to slip through, less excuses for tax hikes and more efficient accountability. In this sense, Government should only exist to make it easier to safely earn money and meet financial goals, not decide what they are and meet them for you at a premium or the worth of your currency.

[forestcaver]

"If you don't like the changes/terms/conditions, put up with it or get another job.  Simple as that."

As long as you dont complain about dentists going private... cos that's exactly what they are doing...

Should doctors all go private as well ??? Dosctors can get far more money and better working conditions in the private sector - is that what you want ? Just curious.....

[tomjackson]

I guess it comes to a point where if these severe cuts are not made then we have a situation where things spiral out of control and the measures are forced upon us becuase we need to borrow more and more, our credit ratings go down and interest rates up, inflation starts to increase even more away from earnings, more unemployment, devalued currency etc etc

But there are other areas the government could cut before teachers and nurses pensions and pay.  After all, these are the people that teach our kids and look after us when we are sick.  I'd like to see us stop p!ssing so much money away abroad fighting wars for oil and wealth which gets creamed off by big companies anyway.

So I have sympathy for those striking even though at some point there be no choice but I'm sure there are other areas that could be cut first

[nfe]

I'm kind of in Twinfan's camp here. If someone who doesn't know what they're talking about starts telling me how I should be doing my job I'll tell them where to go. Why is it different with politicians - why does the general public think they have the right to tell politicians how to run the country?

Because the public vote them in based on what they say they intend to do. Voters are their boss. where Twinfan says that the "public sector are the boss" he is wrong. The PUBLIC are the public sector's boss.

I also don't see the issue with politicians changing their minds. Again that's something we all do all the time, and rightly so. Circumstances change, new information comes to light - normally it's seen as a sign of strength when somebody is able to turn around and admit they were wrong.

Changing your mind is one thing, abandoning pledges that got you elected and supporting moves which clash directly with your stated ideology is not a simple "oh, we were wrong about that", to stick with the LD example.

[Twinfan]

"If you don't like the changes/terms/conditions, put up with it or get another job.  Simple as that."

As long as you dont complain about dentists going private... cos that's exactly what they are doing...

Should doctors all go private as well ??? Dosctors can get far more money and better working conditions in the private sector - is that what you want ? Just curious.....

I don't complain about much to be honest, I'm pretty easy going.  I go to a private dentist but use the NHS for doctors.  If I had to pay for a decent doctor I probably would.  I earn more than minimum wage though, so I guess I have a biased view.

Because parties are voted in on the basis of what they say before their election. They have no mandate to do things that contradict it. It's why manifestos should be legally binding (with exceptions based around unforeseeable circumstances, obviously).

Completely uncontrollable though, so you make your judgement based on how you think they'll behave.  I doubt the LD's would have U-turned so much if they'd got power on their own, but we have a coalition.  All bets are off, so they have to do the best they can for the majority of the population.

It's actually refreshing to see a government try and do something for the greater good, rather than just to get votes to stay in power.

[Dr. Stein]

Because the public vote them in based on what they say they intend to do. Voters are their boss. where Twinfan says that the "public sector are the boss" he is wrong. The PUBLIC are the public sector's boss.

If I've employed someone to do a job that I don't myself understand, I'll let them get on with it.

Changing your mind is one thing, abandoning pledges that got you elected and supporting moves which clash directly with your stated ideology is not a simple "oh, we were wrong about that", to stick with the LD example.

I don't see any reason to believe that it's an idealogical shift rather than simply a reviewing of the figures and the expert advice available. Let's not forget also that tuition fees is one part of a hugely complicated financial picture, as Twinfan points out that picture under the present coalition is probably different in a number of respects compared with the one the liberal democrats had in mind themselves.

[Transcend]

But there are other areas the government could cut before teachers and nurses pensions and pay.  

Its not just nurses and teachers its the entire public sector

[tomjackson]

But there are other areas the government could cut before teachers and nurses pensions and pay.  

Its not just nurses and teachers its the entire public sector

Yes I know, they are are called Examples