Strike!!!

[Twinfan]

Maybe so, but the rest of us don't have to support their actions.  Especially when they're expecting the other 80% of the population to pay for what they think they've been 'promised' when we're getting further out of pocket ourselves  :roll:

Double whammy for us.

[ToneMonkey]

I think the biggest thing at play here is that public sector workers have been forced to increase their penson contribution and they will see absolutely no benifit at all.

It's exactly the same as people in the private sector being told that they are to pay an extra £100 a month tax so that you can help reduce the deficit too. I bet some of you would have a bit of sympathy then (and a good old moan).

I'll try to hunt out the article where the bank of england says that it is comparable to an additional tax on the public sector.

[Twinfan]

It's not the same as that - we're paying extra (or receiving less for the same) in our pensions too, so it's like for like.

If the public sector workers "win" and get no change in their pensions, where's the extra government funding coming from?

[dave_mc]

(a) I dont want your sympathy! (b) So the fact the pound is worth less has no effect whatsoever on investments made for pensions does it? I can't see how it can. (c) Plus there is no interest rate to speak of. The futures exchange invests money from private pensions to create wealth to pay them so the public ones must work like that to a degree.
(d) If they have been told something and now are being treated differently I would say that is som
ething to do with the current financial situation. You can't just pretend it's not happening and it has no effect on you.
(e) Most wealth IS created in the private sector and it does Pay for the public sector.
(f) I don't read the Daily Mail so I wouldn't know. So what if it did. Its not an opinion of the working population.
(g) Plus Brown plundered private pensions when he was in power. I dont remember Unison sticking up for workers effected by that theft.

(a) fair enough

(b) I guess, but i suppose it depends on where those investments are

(c) i guess

(d) well, sure, but a contract's a contract at the same time. if we just tear everything up, that's dangerous (and not just for public sector workers, for everyone).

(e) my point is that the private sector's wealth generation is affected by the public sector, public works and infrastructure. it's virtually impossible to separate the two. it's certainly not the case that the private sector generates all teh money and the public sector spends it (LOL).

and if you want to get into it, this whole mess we're in was caused by the private sector.

(f) well, sure, it's not exactly a referendum, but at the same time, if 80+% of those posting on a right-leaning newspaper's website supported the strikes...

(g) i'm certainly no fan of brown, and am not trying to defend what he did.

The difference between promised in this case for the public sector and the private sector is that the private sector wouldn't have promised something they couldn't afford.
Unfortunate, but true.

Well my old final salary pension was 'promised' and supposedly secure, but the company found a loophole as it was a) costing far too much and b) wasn't in line with pension provisions in other countries.  They changed it.

hmmm, sounds like it's not so true, roo

and that sucks, by teh way, dave.

you probably should have gone on strike. i'd have supported that. :lol:

I think the basic gist of the matter is that an awful lot of people worked in teh public sector for years, earning less than they would have in the private, but were willing to put up with that because things like pensions and job security were pretty decent.

Now that's been taken away, and a lot of people have been working in the public sector for way too long to change tack now.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to be annoyed :?

[Twinfan]

Being annoyed is fine, and if people think it's that much better in the private sector why don't they come and work here instead?  They have the choice.

[nfe]

I'm really struggling to get how you think that's a sensible argument. "Tough, shut up or start over, from scratch" is all you're saying. I understand you're obviously overtly economically-rightist, which is fair enough, but you can't possibly think it a moral way for any business to behave, let alone the state, who should be treating workers fairly.

Lots of people have worked in the public sector for a long time because of the pension benefits they believed they'd have, on lower wages than people doing equivalent work in the private sector. it's not a case of jealousy of the private sector, it's a perfectly reasonable decision to take the lower paid career for the end-benefits. Which have been taken from them, whilst they're asked to contribute more. Yes they can find private sector jobs in many cases (well, hopefully) but it means starting a new career and having lost a long time's (potentially decades) saving and contributing to a private pension because they believed they were already taking care of their future.

It is completely reasonable to protest it in any fashion they can.

[Twinfan]

Each to their own.  I find it unreasonable that people of today expect cast iron certainty of pay, job security and benefits over their entire career.  It’s completely unrealistic and unsustainable.

And they're not "starting over from scratch" - their pension isn't disappearing!   :?

[nfe]

In terms of career/position/pay grade they often will be, depending on how transferable their skills are. And part of their pension accrued IS disappearing.

[Roobubba]

I find it unreasonable that people of today expect cast iron certainty of pay, job security and benefits over their entire career.  It’s completely unrealistic and unsustainable.

I don't agree with this. While people are in employment, they're paying income tax and national insurance contributions. We all do this so that the wise old government can ensure our nation's current and future interests are taken care of, and that includes keeping the population in employment so they can continue to contribute with taxes and NI. Private and public sector alike.
If the government squanders our nation's assets through poor management, we as a nation have every right to grumble about it. This public sector outcry is a result of that, in its most over-simplified form.

Just for the record, I work in the public sector and I'm not striking or complaining about my wage, despite not having had a pay increase (or cost of living increase) for 4 years, aside from an increase due to me successfully getting a promotion. I'm working towards new cancer therapies, which I do partly because I love my job (though the commute is killing me) and partly because I want to contribute positively to society in some way. That makes me a lucky one, I know, but I can't realistically go on for too much longer with a real terms decrease in pay, which is what we're all getting, and on top of that an increase in pension contributions.

The bottom line here is that there's no easy solution. If we could go back in time and stop the bankers utterly ****ing us all over, I'm sure we all would do that in a heartbeat, but we can't so we need some measures to safeguard our country's finances, and unfortunately, that means us all paying more and getting less. That's why I'm not striking, though I can understand why those who are, are.

[Twinfan]

So you're saying it's acceptable to believe that once you become a public sector worker, you can expect to stay there for life with guaranteed pay rises and gold plated pensions?

I agree the government is there to ensure the future, but they have to have the flexibility to sacrifice some of the current in order to do that.  Otherwise you're in a downhill spiral that can't be escaped from.  This is what they're trying to do.

[Johnny Mac]

Plus Brown plundered private pensions when he was in power. I dont remember Unison sticking up for workers effected by that theft.

 Unison have no mandate to speak out on behalf of private sector workers.

I know they don't but they are saying fairer pensions for all now but didn't say anything when Brown stole workers pensions when he was in power.

[Dmoney]

So you're saying it's acceptable to believe that once you become a public sector worker, you can expect to stay there for life with guaranteed pay rises and gold plated pensions?

I agree the government is there to ensure the future, but they have to have the flexibility to sacrifice some of the current in order to do that.  Otherwise you're in a downhill spiral that can't be escaped from.  This is what they're trying to do.

I dont think he is saying that. I think you are exaggerating. I don't think anyone is saying they should have guarenteed job security, pay rises equal to whatever and super pensions.

There is a danger that the pension contribution increase will make things worse. If enough people working in the public sector opt out of the pension, which is probably more likely for new starters on lower wages with uni debts or whatever, then the government will loose all the money they claimed to be saving.

why aren't they tightening up on legal loopholes for companies to dodge paying tax? Or stoping PFI related projects instead of signing more off.

[mikeluke]

Question


Any Public Sector workers on this thread - what % contributions do you & government make to your pension pot? Just curious to understand how it compares with mine.

Thanks

Mike

[Afghan Dave]

Some Facts.

NI/Pension payments from the Public Sector fall into the same "POT" as General Taxation. 

As such it is NOT comparable to Equity based investments for private pensions.

In essence look at it as "Deferred Pay" or at worst an investment in future "UK plc"

As a percentage of GDP - the projections for "reformed" public sector pensions ARE REDUCING!

IT IS AFFORDABLE.

That is the truth...

Now my oppinion....

Everyone has been f**ked over and it is a pity that "public Vs private" debate is being used to distract and obscure the issue.
Unions and the right to withdraw labour are vital tools for the worker and the reluctance to exercise this right to organisation and action has resulted in almost Victorian levels of worker exploitation in the private sector.

If the workers in the private sector were a little more fraternal and organised WE TOO would enjoy better safeguards!

I will recap from earlier. A contract is a contract and as such the workers should be paid.

Don't hate those who are fighting for what is their right.





 

[Twinfan]

I dont think he is saying that. I think you are exaggerating. I don't think anyone is saying they should have guarenteed job security, pay rises equal to whatever and super pensions.

Yes, I'm exagerating to make a point, but that's basically what the issue is.  It seems that any change to existing benefits is seen to be wrong and unacceptable.