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Author Topic: Scientific experiment with old violins (2 Stradivari) - another myth destroyed  (Read 23299 times)

Twinfan

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Every piece of wood is different, so the above result may say that:

a)  The bolt on neck guitar had a better marriage of woods
b)  Neck joint types are less important to sustain than wood quality and marriage of the parts

Roobubba

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I am guessing (and I'm sure Roo can offer informed insight on this) that violinists probably go through similar phases.

The main difference is that, on the whole, string players tend to have just one (main) instrument they play - maybe this is why I'm the same with the guitars, because I was first a viola player. Most guitar enthusiasts of course have several to many different instruments.
This also makes guitarists more amenable to changing between instruments - in my opinion - than string players. I have one viola (which now my sister has), and one main guitar (not counting the stage backup which I haven't played for about 3 years). When I do play a different guitar, I find it very odd! I know I'm in the minority here though.

Chris

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Every piece of wood is different, so the above result may say that:

a)  The bolt on neck guitar had a better marriage of woods
b)  Neck joint types are less important to sustain than wood quality and marriage of the parts

Fair point

Ian Price

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It would be interesting to hear what some of our resident luthiers think about this.

Indeed it would - I'm sure I remember Jonathan commenting on something like this at one stage.
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MrBump

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Music isn't scientific, it's all about feel and emotion.

Music IS largely scientific, although it can be very difficult to understand it from a scientific perspective, to the point that it can seem as if it is not scientific.  I agree with you in principle though, because it is very difficult to test every last difference between a vintage instrument and another instrument, and because there is so much going on psychologically, all that really matters is what instrument you play best with, whether it is a vintage treasure, or a nice example of a modern instrument.

Not sure I agree with that - only in the sense that everything is basically physics and therefore can be measured! 
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Twinfan

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^ yep, me too.  Music to me is art, not science!

Andrew W

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An article about the same study for those of us whose German language skills are lacking:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/in-play-off-between-old-and-new-violins-stradivarius-lags.html?_r=1

Chris

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Music isn't scientific, it's all about feel and emotion.

Music IS largely scientific, although it can be very difficult to understand it from a scientific perspective, to the point that it can seem as if it is not scientific.  I agree with you in principle though, because it is very difficult to test every last difference between a vintage instrument and another instrument, and because there is so much going on psychologically, all that really matters is what instrument you play best with, whether it is a vintage treasure, or a nice example of a modern instrument.

Not sure I agree with that - only in the sense that everything is basically physics and therefore can be measured! 

There is more to it than that - musical scales are derived mathematically, and individual roles of each note (dominant, subdominant, tonic, etc.) can also be expressed mathematically.  When you learn to play, even without learning the theory, but playing with a sense of 'feel', what you are really doing is learning patterns that represent the underlying mathematics, even though you are not formalising them.  This is how we can build computers that can compose pretty good music - because it is largely mathematical.  Also, with respect to the guitar, Physics is important because the way the pickups are wound, potted, etc. affects the tone of the instrument, and the scale length affects the sound, etc.  All of these rely on principles of Physics and so should in theory be testable between a vintage and a new instrument.

Of course, there is also an art element to music too, which is why I said that music is largely scientific, not completely.  This is why those computers that create music are usually no match for Clapton, or Van Halen, or whoever.  You need to know what emotion you are targeting and what musical concepts will portray that well - that's where the art comes in.

TL;DR - I'm not saying that music is completely scientific, but a lot more so than most musicians usually realise.

MrBump

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Music isn't scientific, it's all about feel and emotion.

Music IS largely scientific, although it can be very difficult to understand it from a scientific perspective, to the point that it can seem as if it is not scientific.  I agree with you in principle though, because it is very difficult to test every last difference between a vintage instrument and another instrument, and because there is so much going on psychologically, all that really matters is what instrument you play best with, whether it is a vintage treasure, or a nice example of a modern instrument.

Not sure I agree with that - only in the sense that everything is basically physics and therefore can be measured! 

There is more to it than that - musical scales are derived mathematically, and individual roles of each note (dominant, subdominant, tonic, etc.) can also be expressed mathematically.  When you learn to play, even without learning the theory, but playing with a sense of 'feel', what you are really doing is learning patterns that represent the underlying mathematics, even though you are not formalising them.  This is how we can build computers that can compose pretty good music - because it is largely mathematical.  Also, with respect to the guitar, Physics is important because the way the pickups are wound, potted, etc. affects the tone of the instrument, and the scale length affects the sound, etc.  All of these rely on principles of Physics and so should in theory be testable between a vintage and a new instrument.

Of course, there is also an art element to music too, which is why I said that music is largely scientific, not completely.  This is why those computers that create music are usually no match for Clapton, or Van Halen, or whoever.  You need to know what emotion you are targeting and what musical concepts will portray that well - that's where the art comes in.

TL;DR - I'm not saying that music is completely scientific, but a lot more so than most musicians usually realise.


Yep, I know exactly what you're saying.  But if that argument goes to it's natural conclusion then we have to say that EVERYTHING is scientific and mathematical - which is kinda is, because everything that has physical properties can be described by physics.  I tend to want to describe music, choice of notes, improvisation etc as a culmination of technical skills, education, experience and emotional content rather than as chemical and electrical signals beetween ganglia.  Even if the latter is technically correct.
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gordiji

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i agree with what you're trying to convey chris, as 'scientific' but we need to remember physics is an abstraction of reality not the other way round.

Chris

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Music isn't scientific, it's all about feel and emotion.

Music IS largely scientific, although it can be very difficult to understand it from a scientific perspective, to the point that it can seem as if it is not scientific.  I agree with you in principle though, because it is very difficult to test every last difference between a vintage instrument and another instrument, and because there is so much going on psychologically, all that really matters is what instrument you play best with, whether it is a vintage treasure, or a nice example of a modern instrument.

Not sure I agree with that - only in the sense that everything is basically physics and therefore can be measured! 

There is more to it than that - musical scales are derived mathematically, and individual roles of each note (dominant, subdominant, tonic, etc.) can also be expressed mathematically.  When you learn to play, even without learning the theory, but playing with a sense of 'feel', what you are really doing is learning patterns that represent the underlying mathematics, even though you are not formalising them.  This is how we can build computers that can compose pretty good music - because it is largely mathematical.  Also, with respect to the guitar, Physics is important because the way the pickups are wound, potted, etc. affects the tone of the instrument, and the scale length affects the sound, etc.  All of these rely on principles of Physics and so should in theory be testable between a vintage and a new instrument.

Of course, there is also an art element to music too, which is why I said that music is largely scientific, not completely.  This is why those computers that create music are usually no match for Clapton, or Van Halen, or whoever.  You need to know what emotion you are targeting and what musical concepts will portray that well - that's where the art comes in.

TL;DR - I'm not saying that music is completely scientific, but a lot more so than most musicians usually realise.


Yep, I know exactly what you're saying.  But if that argument goes to it's natural conclusion then we have to say that EVERYTHING is scientific and mathematical - which is kinda is, because everything that has physical properties can be described by physics.  I tend to want to describe music, choice of notes, improvisation etc as a culmination of technical skills, education, experience and emotional content rather than as chemical and electrical signals beetween ganglia.  Even if the latter is technically correct.

Yeah, but music is closer to science than most other things that people would call art.  A computer, which is programmed with the algorithms relating to scales, chords, note choice, etc. can produce very convincing music, i.e. music which is indistinguishable from that created by a person.  However I don't think the same can be said of painting, for example, there are comparatively fewer formalisations that can be used to program a computer to do that convincingly. 

I guess what I'm saying is that people tend to say that "music is art, not science", when actually it is both.  Without the Science aspect, it would be a mess of notes with no structure, and without the art side, it would be sterile muzak.

Chris

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i agree with what you're trying to convey chris, as 'scientific' but we need to remember physics is an abstraction of reality not the other way round.

Physics is a representation of reality rather than an abstraction (most of it that relates to musical instruments anyway, there are abstract areas such as QM but they are largely unrelated).  Music, however, is abstract, and therefore can be well represented by mathematics (which is also abstract).

MrBump

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i agree with what you're trying to convey chris, as 'scientific' but we need to remember physics is an abstraction of reality not the other way round.

Physics is a representation of reality rather than an abstraction (most of it that relates to musical instruments anyway, there are abstract areas such as QM but they are largely unrelated).  Music, however, is abstract, and therefore can be well represented by mathematics (which is also abstract).

Absolutely.  Music can be represented by mathematics.  The fact that you can describe something mathematically, or in physical terms, doesn't make it "scientific", in my humble opinion.
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Philly Q

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Uh oh.

This is turning into one of those contentious "highbrow debate" threads....

Who'd have thunk it?
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Alex

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The one thing I think we should not forget when transferring the results of the violin tests to the guitar world is that first there are more factors playing a part in electric guitars (wood, construction, pickups, scale...), not to mention the amp, and second, that the tonal spectrum of violins is much more in "higher frequencies", whereas electric guitars are more rooted in "mid frequencies". That would raise the question as what is easier to distinguish for the human ear - high, mid, or low frequencies.
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