do i need to learn modes to play solos?

[HTH AMPS]

What are these modes and scales you guys are talking about? - are you saying there is a 'proper' way to do what I do  :lol:

I learnt the blues/pentatonic scales (major and minor) early on and ran with it.  Later on the teacher I went to tried to show me modes, but most of it went way over my head.  The trouble is knowing when they'll fit the progression, that what I can't understand.  In any case, much of the 'extra' notes I ended up adding in were part of modes so I was playing 'modally' without realising - didn't make it any better or worse for me. 

[tomjackson]

Short answer - No. 

Long answer:-


The thing is modes are really just an abstract idea.  You learn scales and then playing modally you just shift the scale and start on a different note.  So if for example you learnt the major scale all over the neck, the modes bit would come easily.

All scales have modes, most of the ones people talk about come from the major scale - Ionian (major Scale, Dorian, Phrygian etc, these are the ones you hear people talk about but the Harmonic Minor scale also has its own usefull set of modes.

Even some hardcore jazzers don't bother with modes, they look at everything chordally.  They may play something that someone would call a mode but they are arriving at it from a different place with a different mindset.

The Pentatonic minor scale is the perfect scale to start with, it may be all you need. Don't worry about modes for now.  The Pentatonic Minor is easy to make sound good.

Following the pentatonic minor it's a good idea to learn the pentatonic major (same shapes, different fret for the same key) and also the major scale, not always the most usefull in rock music on it's own but as it's the daddy of all scales in western music knowing it inside out makes everything else usefull.

[gwEm]

wrote a massive post which got lost going into my thoughts.

but basically about 90% of the music i write is in the natural minor (aeolian) scale, very useful in rock I think - Schenker plays in it alot for example

edit for graphical content:

[Philly Q]

A great big NO from me.

Feel free to get into them if you're interested... don't rule anything out... if you're the sort of person who likes rules and theories, they will definitely help you understand why things work.

But you do not need them. The most important thing is your ears - use them first. If it sounds good it is good.

I think you're absolutely right, Andy.... but remember not everyone has ears as good as yours, so learning a few things by rote can possibly help.  Sometimes. 


Anyway, I hesitate to contribute to this thread since I'm the worst guitar player in the world.... but over the years I've come to think:

Solos really don't matter very much.  Don't get me wrong, I love guitar solos, but in most rock/pop music they're just icing on the cake, a few seconds to to take the song somewhere different and provide a bit of excitement.  The important thing is the song.  And as you've probably heard more than a few famous guitar players say in interviews, 90% of the time you're playing rhythm anyway.

So I'd say, learn songs.  Or even write songs, if you have the talent to do so.  Learn the solos that go with those songs, and then you'll get a feel for what works and what doesn't.

[enuenu]

I still can't work out wtf they are. For example C major and D dorian contain the same notes, so there is no difference from what I can tell. Still looking for a simple explanation and believe me I have searched. They would have to add to your toolbox if you work them out, if you do let me in on the secret ;)

[Philly Q]

I still can't work out wtf they are. For example C major and D dorian contain the same notes, so there is no difference from what I can tell. Still looking for a simple explanation and believe me I have searched. They would have to add to your toolbox if you work them out, if you do let me in on the secret ;)

OK, at the risk of profound embarrassment, has anyone heard this:


I Decided Playing Loudly Made A Lot of sense....


Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian


So yes, C Ionian (C Major) has the same notes as D Dorian, E Phrygian etc. ....but because you're starting the "pattern" at a different note, the intervals are different and therefore the "feel" is different when you play over a chord progression in the appropriate key.


And that's all the theory I know....  :?

[Philly Q]

edit for graphical content:

I think I still have that issue somewhere....

[MDV]

I still can't work out wtf they are. For example C major and D dorian contain the same notes, so there is no difference from what I can tell. Still looking for a simple explanation and believe me I have searched. They would have to add to your toolbox if you work them out, if you do let me in on the secret ;)

OK, at the risk of profound embarrassment, has anyone heard this:


I Decided Playing Loudly Made A Lot of sense....


Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian


So yes, C Ionian (C Major) has the same notes as D Dorian, E Phrygian etc. ....but because you're starting the "pattern" at a different note, the intervals are different and therefore the "feel" is different when you play over a chord progression in the appropriate key.


And that's all the theory I know....  :?

Thats a quality mnemonic!

[enuenu]

So yes, C Ionian (C Major) has the same notes as D Dorian, E Phrygian etc. ....but because you're starting the "pattern" at a different note, the intervals are different and therefore the "feel" is different when you play over a chord progression in the appropriate key.

When I improvise lead I start and finish licks anywhere, just as long as I'm just using the notes in the scale. Thus you couldn't tell if I'm improvising in C major or D Dorian. Maybe it is the accompanying chords that make it a mode?

[Philly Q]

Hard to explain (especially when I barely know what I'm talking about), but:

If the song's in the key of C you may think you're improvising in D Dorian, but you're not.... you're really playing C Ionian (aka C Major).  Because you're in C.

The actual notes may be the same, but it's all about how they relate to the underlying key.  

(So if you wanted to improvise in Dorian, it should be C Dorian, not D Dorian)


Does that make sense?  Apologies if it doesn't.

[dave_mc]

you don't *have* to... i mean you can just blatantly rip off the guitarists you like (actually i'd advise doing that whether you learn modes or not :lol: "talent borrows; genius steals" and all that).

and i mean depending on what type of music you're playing or what key you're in, you might rarely ever need modes.

i think it's also worth pointing out that the major and (natural) minor scale technically are modes.

but i mean it's not that hard to learn modes.

play the major scale from E to E. that's ionian.

then play the same notes, but instead of starting on E, move up to F# and play through to F# again. that's dorian.

keep moving up one note at a time in this way and you'll go through (if i remember correctly :lol: ) phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian (natural minor) and locrian.

you can do the same thing with the harmonic minor scale. phrygian dominant is pretty cool in it (can't remember which mode it is, i could work it out but i cba, but it has a flat 2nd, sharp 4th- malmsteen uses it a lot).

but that's really only how to work them out- you should treat them as separate scales with their own sound. phrygian sounds spanish (or br00tal with distortion), lydian sounds dreamy, etc.

of course, in my own playing it's minor pentatonic or blues like 99.9% of the time :haha

I still can't work out wtf they are. For example C major and D dorian contain the same notes, so there is no difference from what I can tell. Still looking for a simple explanation and believe me I have searched. They would have to add to your toolbox if you work them out, if you do let me in on the secret ;)

you start and end on a different note, so they sound different.

"home base", for want of a better term, is a different place. the place where the music wants to resolve itself to is different. and the intervals (at least some of them) are different, which makes it sound different.

I mean teh natural minor and the major scale contain the same notes, but they sound very different. exact same idea.

[Matt77]

I still can't work out wtf they are. For example C major and D dorian contain the same notes, so there is no difference from what I can tell. Still looking for a simple explanation and believe me I have searched. They would have to add to your toolbox if you work them out, if you do let me in on the secret ;)

Play a D note and then play the D major scale over the top of it.
Then play a D note and play D dorian over the top of it. You should hear the difference in the modes easier than trying to pick out the difference between C major and D dorian

[gwEm]

I still can't work out wtf they are. For example C major and D dorian contain the same notes, so there is no difference from what I can tell. Still looking for a simple explanation and believe me I have searched. They would have to add to your toolbox if you work them out, if you do let me in on the secret ;)

Play a D note and then play the D major scale over the top of it.
Then play a D note and play D dorian over the top of it. You should hear the difference in the modes easier than trying to pick out the difference between C major and D dorian

this is 100% true

although the notes in C major and D dorian might be the same, the weight each of the notes have is different.

for example - when soloing in C major, you'll probably play alot of the note C itself - maybe even start and stop your lead line with it. you might use D as a passing note, but it won't necessary feature hugely - you'll be playing to take advantages of the features of the major mode - generally considered to have positive uplifting qualities.

[MDV]

So yes, C Ionian (C Major) has the same notes as D Dorian, E Phrygian etc. ....but because you're starting the "pattern" at a different note, the intervals are different and therefore the "feel" is different when you play over a chord progression in the appropriate key.

When I improvise lead I start and finish licks anywhere, just as long as I'm just using the notes in the scale. Thus you couldn't tell if I'm improvising in C major or D Dorian. Maybe it is the accompanying chords that make it a mode?

As phillys getting at - all the modes are just the major scale. They each just start on the next note of the major (which is ionian)

If you play out 2 octaves of the major scale/ionian in any key they you have just played through all the modes as well. The notes are the same, the order is the same, the key is the same.

So, there are two important things to understand - All the modes are in effect in the key of whatever the relative ionian to that mode is. Is usually presented as C, so when youre playing in E Phrygian youre still really playing C Ionian, just starting in a different place in the scale.

The other thing is the order of the modes: when playing in any given mode you can move to another provided you move to the right relative tonic for it. So if youre in B Phrygian, you can goto A dorian, for example, if you so desire. You cant play A locrian. Well, you can, but it would sound cr@p.  Probably. Musically it works, because its all the same notes, in the same order because all the modes are just different start and end points on the same scale (major/ionian).

This all allows you to use the modes as 'flavour' and colouring for changing mood while remaining in key. They are all the same scale insofar as they are the same notes, and though the modes in the same key (all modes in E, for example) sound very different, the modes all in the proper order are all consonant with each other and so long as you get the right tonic for each one, because all the notes are the same and in the same order, you can play any/all of them over anything in straightforward major or minor (given that major is ionian and minor is aeolian).

[Lezard]

I don't bother with all the relative scale stuff (ie playing D maj scale over a C maj chord) when I'm improvising although sometimes I do when I'm trying to compose.
I find it easier and quicker to play from the root note and add the intervals I want or play altered and extended arpeggios and any other chromatic bullshiteee that comes to mind.

And as has been said, for the orignal question, you don't really need modes to solo.
Major and minor scales, pentatonics and chord tones should be fine untill you decide you want to try something else.
and learning intervals couldn't hurt either.

I still can't work out wtf they are. For example C major and D dorian contain the same notes, so there is no difference from what I can tell. Still looking for a simple explanation and believe me I have searched. They would have to add to your toolbox if you work them out, if you do let me in on the secret ;)

Play a D note and then play the D major scale over the top of it.
Then play a D note and play D dorian over the top of it. You should hear the difference in the modes easier than trying to pick out the difference between C major and D dorian

If you do decide to tackle modes this is indeed the best way^