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Author Topic: New amp advice  (Read 23389 times)

kellar

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2012, 06:59:45 AM »
Wow. That sounds like someone took Meshuggah and stuffed them in that box. I will definitely look into that.
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Telerocker

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2012, 09:38:25 AM »
Wow. That sounds like someone took Meshuggah and stuffed them in that box. I will definitely look into that.

Emma-pedals are build for life. I have the Emma Reezafratzitz-distortion now for eight years. Keeps your tone dynamic and thick. Also sounds great on lower gainsettings. It has never let me down. The Pisdywauyot is on my list too, just to have fun now and then.
BTW, I use the Suhr Riot on the clean channel of my Rockerverb to obtain severe highgain-sounds at low volumes. Works great too.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:39:37 AM by Telerocker »
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dave_mc

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2012, 05:25:16 PM »
Something cheap like a Boss Super Overdrive?

yep, that should be fine. there are several cheapish clones of tubescreamers too from the likes of joyo, tonerider, etc. It's ages since i've tried an sd1, but as itamar says it might be better for the heavier stuff. I seem to remember it's a bit edgier than a tubescreamer (and the massive mid hump of a tubescreamer can sometimes be a bit much into middy amps). For that reason i use a danelectro v1 transparent overdrive (cheap timmy clone) as my rhythm tone boost as it's more transparent, and then use a joyo ts clone for a lead boost.

BigB

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2012, 07:36:03 PM »
I played around on one and have read ton of reviews and while there is plenty of gain to be had, it borders more on a hard rock voicing and I know I will want an added boost to really achieve the tone I am looking for. Should I be looking for a simple overdrive/boost pedal to use when I need that added "oomph" or go with a metal/distortion pedal straight away?
A few examples of the tones I am looking for: Tool, Alice in Chains, Deftones. Like I said, I have sort of fallen into this heavy metal thing and while it is new for me, I have to say it is fun and very exciting! What are you guys using to push your amps?

There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this - you'll have to find out by yourself what works best for you, since the result really depends on the exact guitar / pedal / amp combo and how you set them. To summarize (and overly simplify), there are two main solutions:

1/ full-blown distortion pedal on a clean amp
2/ "dirt-boost" on a dirty amp

The first one is usually the simplest to get right - you just have to find a distortion pedal with the right voicing - but it can easily sound a bit "synthetic", at least with solid-state pedals. A true tube-based pedal can give better results, but beware, most of the so-called "tube" pedals are snake-oil (not that they are necessarily bad, but the tube is too often only used to warm the sound a bit while the distortion still comes from silicon - and sometimes the tube is not even on the signal path :-/). Also the good tube-based pedals are far from cheap.

The second solution is way more touchy. Basically, it's about using an OD on low/mid gain settings and full volume to push the already overdriven preamp a bit farther. Part of the trick is to correctly adjust the settings on both the pedal and amp. The other part of the trick is to find the pedal(s) that will work fine with your amp (and guitar of course), and given the tweaking required to make both work together it can be a rather involved process. Also, it doesn't work with all amps - my experience is that the more gain available on the amp, the less it takes dirt-boost fine. IOW, this usually works better with more vintagey amps than with modern hi-gain ones (OTHO, those amps are supposed to have enough gain on tap that you don't need to push them further...).

There are of course "intermediate" solutions that are still based on stacking low/mid gain stages, usually on a "about-to-breakup-but-still-clean" amp (ie David Gilmour's booster => fuzz => pushed Hiwatt amp or SRV's tube-screamer => tube-screamer => pushed Fender amp), but it's still more or less about stacking gain stages, and getting the respective gain / clipping level right.

My current amp is a custom made thingie with a blackface clean channel (one gain stage), an "orangeish" crunch channel (two gain stages so think of a fat bluesy crunch), and a SLO-inspired hi-gain channel (four gain stages - the SLO has five). The clean and crunch channel are very pedal-friendly and work fine with about any of the OD / distortion / fuzz I tried, I mostly use a Xotic EP Booster and a home-made TS-808-based OD here. The SLO channel doesn't require anything more IMHO, but from what I tried only the Dano CTO-1 (which dave_mc mentioned) works with it - and it has to be set on low gain and not too much above unity volume. Anything else is just OTT and ruins the tone. FWIW, the CTO is also the only dirt-box I found to work with our singer's Peavey Classic 30 gain channel (while the clean channel takes anything ok).

To make a long story short: the best modern hi-gain I've had so far were with either a hi-gain tube pedal on a clean amp or a true hi-gain amp - and the best old-school hard-rock tones with a stack of either two OD or a treble boost + OD  on a cranked vintagey amp.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 07:41:39 PM by BigB »
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dave_mc

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2012, 09:10:00 PM »
^ agreed, and good write-up- except:

(i) It's hard to get that modern high gain super-saturated tone without using an od as a pseudo-clean boost into a high gain amp's overdrive/distortion channel- as you said, pedal into clean amp rarely cuts it, and sounds (and more importantly, feels) fake.

(ii) although you say it's touchy and I would agree in principle, it's actually not that touchy, at least in my experience, in practice. Basically go with either a tubescreamer-alike if the amp needs more mids and needs to be tightened up in the bass, or go with something more transparent (e.g. timmy) if you don't need the mids. I mean when you think about it there are only about 3 different overdrive pedals in existence, the vast majority of od pedals available are (slight) variations (if even) on a theme.

Maybe i've just been lucky, but any of the ones I have tried with a boost worked better with it. :)

(iii) if you're getting an expensive high gain amp and aren't using the overdrive channel as the main generator of your distortion why on earth did you buy the amp? :lol:

(using a pedal as a boost is ok and even recommended, I mean using a distortion pedal over the clean channel is daft, unless you want a different flavour of distortion tone occasionally.)

« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 09:12:44 PM by dave_mc »

Telerocker

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2012, 12:53:51 AM »
Basically you're right. But I experienced that I can't use the real potential of the drivechannel my Orange Rockerverb at half of our gigs. It really starts to sing with the master past 12.00, but then everybody gets crazy, the man at the mixingconsole too. In those cases I use a Suhr Riot on the clean channel and steer with the volume of the guitar. At bigger gigs I use a clean/fat-boost and od's and distortionpedals to boost the drivechannel just a bit.
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BigB

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2012, 11:23:04 AM »
^ agreed, and good write-up- except:

(i) It's hard to get that modern high gain super-saturated tone without using an od as a pseudo-clean boost into a high gain amp's overdrive/distortion channel

Well, I'm not into metal - unless you consider AiC  as metal -, so I can't really say, but so far my amp's hi-gain channel has enough gain to not require anything more IMHO ;)

Quote

(ii) although you say it's touchy and I would agree in principle, it's actually not that touchy, at least in my experience, in practice.

Yeps, I didn't mean to imply it was rocket science neither - just that it could be a somewhat more involved process.


Quote
Maybe i've just been lucky, but any of the ones I have tried with a boost worked better with it. :)

Or maybe I've just stumbled on the ones that worked better without a boost :lol:


Quote
(iii) if you're getting an expensive high gain amp and aren't using the overdrive channel as the main generator of your distortion why on earth did you buy the amp? :lol:

Answers #1 : cf Telerocker's post. 

Answer #2:

Quote
I mean using a distortion pedal over the clean channel is daft, unless you want a different flavour of distortion tone occasionally.

this ^

@Telerocker:
Basically you're right. But I experienced that I can't use the real potential of the drivechannel my Orange Rockerverb at half of our gigs. It really starts to sing with the master past 12.00, but then everybody gets crazy, the man at the mixingconsole too.

Yeps, even with these hi-gain amps where almost all of the distortion comes from the preamp, you still need to push the power amp (and speakers) quite hard to get the right tone and feel, there's something just not happening if you don't. 50W is already too much for most cases in my experience.
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juansolo

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2012, 01:21:15 PM »
The first one is usually the simplest to get right - you just have to find a distortion pedal with the right voicing - but it can easily sound a bit "synthetic", at least with solid-state pedals. A true tube-based pedal can give better results, but beware, most of the so-called "tube" pedals are snake-oil (not that they are necessarily bad, but the tube is too often only used to warm the sound a bit while the distortion still comes from silicon - and sometimes the tube is not even on the signal path :-/). Also the good tube-based pedals are far from cheap.

You rang ;)

http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/toob.html

The only silicon in ours is in the buffer and power supply. Signal is 100% tube otherwise. There's only a buffer on the output as they can sometimes bugger with pedals down the chain without it (usually other valve stuff) and the one we use is very transparent.

They do have their own 'warmer' flavour. For metal it'd all depends on what you're feeding. The valve stuff I find works better with an amp that's already on the edge of breakup, even then I'd be tempted to push the valve pedal with a Klone...

That tends to be particularly effective ;) But, if you already have an amp with an OD/Dirty channel, they're a little pointless as they'll be voiced very similarly.

Welcome to come and try stuff if you're in the area.
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dave_mc

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2012, 04:48:46 PM »
Basically you're right. But I experienced that I can't use the real potential of the drivechannel my Orange Rockerverb at half of our gigs. It really starts to sing with the master past 12.00, but then everybody gets crazy, the man at the mixingconsole too. In those cases I use a Suhr Riot on the clean channel and steer with the volume of the guitar. At bigger gigs I use a clean/fat-boost and od's and distortionpedals to boost the drivechannel just a bit.

that's fair enough :)

I still wonder how a pedal sounds better than the od channel, though, even at low volumes. I mean maybe my ears suck, but I always prefer tube distortion (even if it's entirely preamp-generated) or mainly-tube distortion (e.g. a boost into an already overdriven amp) to a pedal generating all the distortion.

(a) Well, I'm not into metal - unless you consider AiC  as metal -, so I can't really say, but so far my amp's hi-gain channel has enough gain to not require anything more IMHO ;)

(b) Yeps, I didn't mean to imply it was rocket science neither - just that it could be a somewhat more involved process.

(c) Or maybe I've just stumbled on the ones that worked better without a boost :lol:

(d) Answers #1 : cf Telerocker's post.  

Answer #2:

Quote
I mean using a distortion pedal over the clean channel is daft, unless you want a different flavour of distortion tone occasionally.

this ^

(e) Yeps, even with these hi-gain amps where almost all of the distortion comes from the preamp, you still need to push the power amp (and speakers) quite hard to get the right tone and feel, there's something just not happening if you don't. 50W is already too much for most cases in my experience.


(a) sure, but i still generally find i prefer it with the gain rolled back a little and hit with a boost instead... it's overdriving a different part of the amp's circuit (first gain stage or two) rather than those later down the chain. I mean... those later down the chain are still overdriving, obviously, but not just as much, and instead of getting no dirt from the first gain stage or two, now you are.

I think. :lol:

(b) yep, you definitely do need to pay attention to the voicing of the amp and the pedal to make sure it sounds the way you want.

(c) that may be so :lol:

as i said, though, my amps have plenty of gain without a boost but i still prefer the tone and feel with one.

(d) #1: true, but as i said, personally i find the tone of an overdrive channel, even at low volumes, better than any pedal i've tried

#2: if it's only a separate flavour, it's not really the main generator of the distortion- you're only using that different tone occasionally.

(e) I agree that they sound better up loud, but (in my opinion, anyway) they don't have to get *that* loud to start sounding good. Far better than a pedal, anyway, in my opinion.

:)

kellar

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2012, 12:35:24 AM »
Really good stuff guys. I should have the amp on Tuesday so I will let you know what it s capable of.
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Elliot

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2012, 10:09:16 PM »
Hey Juan - could you do a STM800 (Boobtube Twin) type pedal based on the front end of a tweed Fender Bassman?
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Dmoney

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2012, 08:08:39 AM »
My current amp is a custom made thingie with a blackface clean channel (one gain stage), an "orangeish" crunch channel (two gain stages so think of a fat bluesy crunch), and a SLO-inspired hi-gain channel (four gain stages - the SLO has five).

SLO lead is a 4 gain stage circuit really. Just sayin'

juansolo

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2012, 08:40:09 AM »
Hey Juan - could you do a STM800 (Boobtube Twin) type pedal based on the front end of a tweed Fender Bassman?

We can certainly try. Though we tried to do one based on an early Mesa and it was difficult to get it to sound good as a stomp. I suspect it might be similar. Something to have a go at when we've caught up, which will be after I've built my amp too ;)
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BigB

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2012, 11:22:19 AM »
SLO lead is a 4 gain stage circuit really. Just sayin'
Uh ?  Always thought it had five - but you certainly know better than me ;)
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tekbow

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2012, 01:54:10 PM »
Dunno much about the internals and what constitutes a gain stage, but the SLO def has 5 preamp valves. Whether one of those does something other than being a gain stage, I have no idea