Holydiver lacking the beef

[GuitarIv]

Eric summed it up pretty well. And as said I love my TS9DX, so if you got the money it wont hurt :)

[darkbluemurder]

No wonder the Super Distortion was used in so many 80's basswood superstrats, it's the only pickup that really jumps all over the poor sound quality of the basswood with a ton of force and output to make it sound better.

...

The Holy Diver, while I think a great pickup, is so organic that it lets the natural basswood through and in this case, it's not a good thing. I think I'm going back to the Super D here.

That has also been my observation. Lots of output, sizzle and dark mids overriding the acoustical properties of the guitar it hosts to some extent. Can be just the ticket in the right guitar for it. If it works for you in that guitar, that's what counts.

Cheers Stephan

[darkbluemurder]

And by the way I also liked the Holydiver best fairly close to the strings whereas I backed the Miracle Man off a bit.

Cheers Stephan

[nkay]

Just another addendum to my experiments with the Holy Diver. I recently got a second Fender Contemporary Stratocaster identical to the one I already have (again basswood, except it's HH, not HSS). I put my old Dimarzio Super Distortion in it that was in my other strat, and it's just so much livelier and punchy than the Diver. I've been playing them back and forth, comparing soloing, rhythm, etc... and I'm just liking the Super Distortion much better for these guitars, my style, and the tone in my head.

It sucks because originally I had my HSS strat with the Super D, and a Charvel San Dimas with the JB, and I was looking for a pickup replacement that would give me the best of both worlds. On paper, the Holy Diver seemed like what I wanted. On first listen, I really liked the Diver, it had the tightness and thickness of the Super D for rhythm, while having that singing middy quality of the JB for leads. The clearness and string-to-string separation of the Diver is fantastic when playing chords. It didn't have the harsh mids that the Super D gets with higher gain, nor the signature mid-spike of the JB that many find annoying.

But... while improving on those pickups and their negative characteristics, in the end, I feel the Diver is missing the special charm of those pickups... the forcefulness and punch, that over-the-top 80's feel. When I play my Charvel with the JB, I get a big smile on my face. When I play my HSS strat with the Super D, I get a big smile on my face. The Holy Diver, I just seem to be fighting with it the whole time to get that forcefulness back.

Now don't get me wrong, the Diver has its own thing going, I can see why people would love the pickup for AIC and Tool-like music. I think it has a much more contemporary sound than it is credited for (by calling it an 80's pickup). That clearness and hearing every string in the chord is a fantastic quality, and kills the SD and JB in that department, and I can also tell that the Diver does not fall over with high-gain, and leans more to a progressive sound too. But after trying it in the alder Charvel, and the basswood Strat, I find (as the thread is named) it just doesn't have the "beef". Maybe it's that less output and force that gives it those "clear" characteristics I do like so it's down to a sound trade-off really.

I have a hunch that this pickup is much better suited to a Les Paul, or other huge chunk of mahogany where the full body can shine through the pickup. Per its description, I don't think it's all that great in lighter bolt-on neck guitars myself, but hey, we all have our own sound we are looking for. I really do appreciate the sound it is going for and its qualities, and I really wanted to like it, but it's just not for my guitars I tried it in or my sound. Good thing there's lots of other BKP models to try!

[itamar101]

Just another addendum to my experiments with the Holy Diver. I recently got a second Fender Contemporary Stratocaster identical to the one I already have (again basswood, except it's HH, not HSS). I put my old Dimarzio Super Distortion in it that was in my other strat, and it's just so much livelier and punchy than the Diver. I've been playing them back and forth, comparing soloing, rhythm, etc... and I'm just liking the Super Distortion much better for these guitars, my style, and the tone in my head.

It sucks because originally I had my HSS strat with the Super D, and a Charvel San Dimas with the JB, and I was looking for a pickup replacement that would give me the best of both worlds. On paper, the Holy Diver seemed like what I wanted. On first listen, I really liked the Diver, it had the tightness and thickness of the Super D for rhythm, while having that singing middy quality of the JB for leads. The clearness and string-to-string separation of the Diver is fantastic when playing chords. It didn't have the harsh mids that the Super D gets with higher gain, nor the signature mid-spike of the JB that many find annoying.

But... while improving on those pickups and their negative characteristics, in the end, I feel the Diver is missing the special charm of those pickups... the forcefulness and punch, that over-the-top 80's feel. When I play my Charvel with the JB, I get a big smile on my face. When I play my HSS strat with the Super D, I get a big smile on my face. The Holy Diver, I just seem to be fighting with it the whole time to get that forcefulness back.

Now don't get me wrong, the Diver has its own thing going, I can see why people would love the pickup for AIC and Tool-like music. I think it has a much more contemporary sound than it is credited for (by calling it an 80's pickup). That clearness and hearing every string in the chord is a fantastic quality, and kills the SD and JB in that department, and I can also tell that the Diver does not fall over with high-gain, and leans more to a progressive sound too. But after trying it in the alder Charvel, and the basswood Strat, I find (as the thread is named) it just doesn't have the "beef". Maybe it's that less output and force that gives it those "clear" characteristics I do like so it's down to a sound trade-off really.

I have a hunch that this pickup is much better suited to a Les Paul, or other huge chunk of mahogany where the full body can shine through the pickup. Per its description, I don't think it's all that great in lighter bolt-on neck guitars myself, but hey, we all have our own sound we are looking for. I really do appreciate the sound it is going for and its qualities, and I really wanted to like it, but it's just not for my guitars I tried it in or my sound. Good thing there's lots of other BKP models to try!

That's very interesting and I've had a similar experience, only with P90s.
I've got a Holy Diver in my Les Paul and it sounds amazing. Very beefy and alive. I definitely comes down to the guitars woods and structure really, playing my strat and then Les Paul unplugged I can easily tell that the start wouldn't sound as good with the HD. It's very hollow and light sounding. It'd be much better suited to a crawler or miracle man, IMO.

[GuitarIv]

Thanks for the summary nkay. I think (at least from reading alot through this forum) that a Miracle Man might resolve the lacking output the Diver seems to have, and although the height adjustment has helped for my Strat, I think I will try to swap it and put it into my Jackson Fusion. Everyone seems to be very impressed by the Diver in Mahogany, so my Jackson will be a good reference. Will report back asap :)

[darkbluemurder]

It definitely has a lot to do with the guitar how a pickup sounds in it. Sometimes you get an instant marriage between a guitar and a pickup, other times it just does not work. The Diver kills in my ash bodied maple necked strat whereas it was not nearly as spectacular in the alder bodied strat.

Cheers Stephan

[GuitarIv]

It definitely has a lot to do with the guitar how a pickup sounds in it. Sometimes you get an instant marriage between a guitar and a pickup, other times it just does not work. The Diver kills in my ash bodied maple necked strat whereas it was not nearly as spectacular in the alder bodied strat.

Cheers Stephan

This.

My Duncan Invaders sucked ass in my Basswood, all Maple Neck Ibanez and slay in my Mahogany, Maple Neck and Rosewood Fretboard Jackson.

[GuitarIv]

Btw, just a little question: if the Diver works out in the Jackson, I'll need a new pickup for the Strat. How well would the Miracle Man couple with the Slowhand Singlecoils?

[ericsabbath]

just as reference, I had some difficulty trying to match a dimarzio k10 (70's super 2) which is only 9k in the neck with an alnico warpig in the bridge of a flying v
even with a huge distance from strings and having the warpig almost touching them, it was still much louder and also had much more magnetic pull

the super distortion is as hot as the super 2 in output and more compressed due to the higher dc and middier voicing
you can't just compare them in such terms as the diver is no near as hot as a super distortion
even the jb or duncan custom put more gain the any bkp I had, and I'm also talking about the aftermath, miracle man, nailbomb, painkiller

also, there's the guitar and height settings that will make a ton of difference
even the strings height from the fretboard will make a big differerence in loudness, therefore in what the pickup picks up and the output it puts out ( :lol:)
the mule in my lp copy sounds gainier than the miracle man in my friends prs

the closest think to the super distortion ceramic really hot and middy type of tone should be the aftermath and painkiller, but they are too tight and articulate in comparison
I also miss something like that in the bkp range
a hot ceramic pickup with heavy midrange without being ultra tight like the pk or bassy like the c-pig
something like a mid heavy version of the miracle man or c-bomb

[nkay]

I'm determined to make these Holy Divers work because I love the string separation and clearness, also the nice saturation under higher gain. But I miss a bit of the messiness and aggression too from the older pickups. I'm going to mess with my amp settings some more, I'm still finding it hard to dial away from my usual settings.

I guess much like speakers, it's down to nuances for the musician rather than the actual tone most listeners would hear and not even notice...

[itamar101]

I'm determined to make these Holy Divers work because I love the string separation and clearness, also the nice saturation under higher gain. But I miss a bit of the messiness and aggression too from the older pickups. I'm going to mess with my amp settings some more, I'm still finding it hard to dial away from my usual settings.

I guess much like speakers, it's down to nuances for the musician rather than the actual tone most listeners would hear and not even notice...

You should try adjusting the pickup height. It makes a huge difference. Actually, it say put the pickup a bit higher if its not already too high and then raise the D and G pole-pieces a bit, maybe even the A, for a really nice chunky sound.

[nkay]

So I made an annoying discovery in my Holy Diver tone saga. I put the other Holy Diver bridge pickup I had in the second Fender Contemporary Strat that I bought recently, and now I know why that second guitar sounded better with the Dimarzio Super Distortion... it was the guitar! I can't believe it. I've had my original 1986 Fender Contemporary HSS strat since I was a teenager (dating myself here), and it's always been my go-to guitar, as it plays so well. This new 1985 Fender Contemporary strat is for all intents and purposes identical, but it's HH config, and it's sounds so much fuller and rich. Damn wood! I'm wondering if it's alder instead of basswood, as it's slightly lighter. (Some of the earlier Japanese strats were said to have had alder bodies).

So now I've got both guitars with Holy Divers, and they sound close of course, but the 85 strat is definitely much better and fuller sounding and sounds great with the Diver. I've been fighting the damn guitar the whole time... gah...

The Holy Diver, now that I spent a lot of time with it in both guitars is great! I have a Cold Sweat Neck in the 1985 HH strat and it smokes for neo-classical leads. The 1986 HSS one with the bad tone, I have a Trilogy in the neck and it's very similar.