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Author Topic: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.  (Read 17787 times)

GuitarIv

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2013, 03:26:36 PM »
I didn't mean to attack you in any way Slart, I just know the Painkiller from first hand experience and I don't find it well suited for anything AC/DC, should have made that clear, sorry mate!

08sg

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2013, 04:27:17 PM »
Eric, I'd read that at some point on the SoloDallas site, but never in detail — I don't know shite about gear, and how it works. But, just listening to Solo do the Back In Black tune in the video - you can definitely hear that THICK boosted sound. It's definitely not as edgy as the SD, but that Vega system, him playing, his guitar, X pickup, in X amp, with X speakers… that's that sound.

The SD has that kind of compression - probably too much, but it's in the ballpark - especially if you use just a hair of gain. You can keep the SD from being too mushy. You basically have to have the pickup closer to the strings - not touching, but as close as possible without string pull. Then, turn the master volume up to about 3-4, and the gain only on 1-1.5. You get that fat POWNK tone - very close anyway.

I should just invest in a few pickups anyway - if for no other reason than to broaden my tonal palette. And get some kind of organic boost+compression like that bad monkey. I wonder if anyone makes anything like the Vega system now? — Very cool stuff.

Slartibartfarst42: Regarding the Nailbomb, I like this part "older school players will enjoy the range of classic tones and response using the volume pot to clean up." I wish more of the BKP pickups were all demo'd with the "classic rock" - like clean to mild breakup, to meaner, to full on. It would give you a better idea as to how their sweep and breath changes with the amp. Many times I'll watch a demo, someone will demo a "hotter" wound classic PAF, and the entire demo is done clean. Or, they start clean, and go directly to insane over drive CHUG CHUG stuff - they don't gradually easy the pickup's personality from clean, classic, mean, etc.

GuitarIv: I appreciate that - that does help put things into context. I wish I could try a Riff Raff first. No one around here carries them. It definitely has that vibe to it. And since it's brighter, upper mid-range:
Quote
providing more focus in the upper-mids and brighter highs. The Riff Raff delivers a more aggressive vintage tone and unmistakable rock voice.
— think I might just cave in and give this one a shot. It's only a pickup, not a liver transplant.

Slartibartfarst42

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2013, 05:08:54 PM »
 :D Well that is certainly true! The Riff Raff will certainly give you AC/DC tones and a Bad Monkey may give you the extra grunt you may sometimes need. It must be possible as Tim plays Ozzy using Mules. If all else fails, you can always return it and switch to the Cold Sweat.

GuitarIv - I didn't take it as an attack at all as that's never really a feature of this site and I've read enough of your posts to know you're not like that so all is cool  8) This has been a difficult question to sort out so I hope that next time 08sg is looking for a pickup, he gives us an easier one  :D It has, however, made me wonder why Tim doesn't do something closer to the Super Distortion. It's a great and iconic pickup and it is a hole in the BKP range.
BKP owned:

Bridge - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; A-Bomb; Holydiver; Miracle Man; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Neck - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; Holydiver; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Afghan Dave

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2013, 05:28:58 PM »
It has, however, made me wonder why Tim doesn't do something closer to the Super Distortion. It's a great and iconic pickup and it is a hole in the BKP range.

I couldn't agree more.
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ericsabbath

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2013, 09:26:47 PM »
what I miss is a ceramic pup with full midrange without being uber tight like the AM or PK, and not "hi-fi" like the blackhawk
something more like the miracle man and ceramic nailbomb, with a full low end, but middy (more symmetrically wound?)
a less surgical and more hairy aftermath should sound amazing... single ceramic magnet?
or a twin coil c-bomb, which should be somewhat similar
hmmm... a c-pig with thicker poly wire and lower dc!
or even something below 10k, like the blackhawk, but with regular slug and/or screw coils
Riff Raff, Mules, Black Dog, VHII's, Cold Sweat

Slartibartfarst42

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 11:09:37 PM »
Clearly we should lobby BKP about making such a pickup. I like the Miracle Man in my Jackson but if I could change it for something that had similar characteristics of smooth, warm, thick, reasonably aggressive and organic but with more mid-range push and a bit more compression without being insanely tight, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I find that in the contemporary section where I feel my natural home is, too many of the pickups are either too surgically tight or made for guitars like Les Pauls with lots of mahogany. At the moment I use a Miracle Man and a Holydiver and I can honestly say that there is nothing else in the range that suits me, which is a shame as I do love BKP.
BKP owned:

Bridge - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; A-Bomb; Holydiver; Miracle Man; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Neck - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; Holydiver; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

nkay

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2013, 11:25:30 PM »
It has, however, made me wonder why Tim doesn't do something closer to the Super Distortion. It's a great and iconic pickup and it is a hole in the BKP range.

I agree and I used to think that way, but at the same time, what's the point of making another Super Distortion? It's still one of the most popular, highest-selling pickups out there, and if you want that sound you go buy that. No real need to redo it. Its closest counterparts are the Holy Diver and the Cold Sweat. Maybe the Diver comes closest, I would like to hear what the original sounded with the ceramic magnet. But again, I think the charm of the Diver in its current form is that it gives that same tight rhythm and thick low-mids as the Super D, while adding more singing fluid leads like a JB. I love the Super D, but it's pretty stiff for leads. It took me awhile to catch on, but I like how BKP has created its own sounds without having to be this version or that version of a Duncan or Dimarzio.

08sg

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2013, 01:17:05 AM »
Nkay, I hear you. What's the point in redoing what's already been done. The best I could think of is the punch, midrange thickness of the SD, but marry it with the brightness and spank of say a Burstbucker Pro - a very bright pickup - in a Les Paul no doubt.

I'm technically uneducated with pickups, and why they sound the way they do, but I'm convinced now, that "output" is sometimes relative. There's another pickup I was considering, the Lindy Fralin High Output bridge humbucker.

It's rated at 13.5K, uses an ALNICO IV magnet, and wound with 43 gauge wire. 
The SD 13.68K, ceramic, and I'm not sure what wire is used. Apparently the LF high output is a thick sounding pickup, and has the most mid-range of all the pickups they produce, yet has clarity and bite to it, and probably a tad brighter, or more crisp than a SD. When I looked at this pickup, I immediately thought of the Emerald.

I look at the very basic things, like the magnet type for the Emerald, Alnico V and at 12.7KΩ * It says
Quote
The moderate output of the Emerald humbucker allows for a more open and clear high-end compared to hotter pickups especially when used with high amounts of preamp gain
  — Yet, the LF high output humbuckers are considered "high output", and they both have very similar DC resistances.

But maybe they output differently? I have no idea. Maybe an Alnico IV magnet at 12K or so is the perfect recipe? I'd forsake thickness or some fatness for more crispness in the mid and upper mids. That's the one thing the SD doesn't have, great clarity.

EDIT: Just found an interesting topic on the Metro amp Forum. Some guy was talking about how much better the SD sounded after swapping the ceramic magnet for an Alnico V magnet, and he thinks it's the bomb. http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=16453
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 04:01:24 AM by 08sg »

ericsabbath

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2013, 07:41:43 AM »
nobody suggested a SD clone, but something in the ballpark (ceramic, crunchy and thick mids, sizzly but not piercing top)
the holy diver is no near as hot as a SD and doesn't have the ceramic sizzle
the old ceramic diver became the cold sweat, which is very focused and sharp, so completely different

the super distortion is just a reference
the dirty fingers was gibson's response to the SD and the duncan custom
(the cold sweat sounds nothing like a DF, btw)

I love all ceramic bkp models over any other brand ceramic model, but I feel there's a missing piece in the available options
we have the cs, c-bomb and mm, all with heavily offset coils and subdued mids, then the painkiller and aftermath with lots of mids, but no warmth, then the c-pig, which is usually overkill for the regular rock player (not even about being too hot, but it can be too big sounding)... the blackhawk is still a mystery to me, but seems to be very surgical, maybe more than the aftermath
and the only alnico model that gets close in output to the ceramic models is the nailbomb, which I also feel it's missing something in the midrange, although it has lots of low mids

it's not about having a super distortion replacement, but offering a tonal flavor that seems to be the only thing missing in bkp range
something ceramic, rough and thick sounding in all frequencies, instead of sharp and focused, but without going as far as a ceramic warpig
Riff Raff, Mules, Black Dog, VHII's, Cold Sweat

GuitarIv

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2013, 09:57:41 AM »
That's a VERY good point you have made here, Eric. I'd love to have something in between the Holydiver and the Painkiller. Owning both pickups I love them for their respective characteristics. The Holydiver having that great organic tone and warmth, sounding full on singlenotes yet being great for riffing with a fat midrange, the Painkiller being amazingly focused and responsive with that grinding metal tone. Something in between would be amazing, retaining the fatter and warmer character of the Holydiver with some of the nice qualities the Painkiller possesses... Dunno how this could be done though.

Zaned

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2013, 10:20:45 AM »

I love all ceramic bkp models over any other brand ceramic model, but I feel there's a missing piece in the available options
we have the cs, c-bomb and mm, all with heavily offset coils and subdued mids, then the painkiller and aftermath with lots of mids, but no warmth, then the c-pig, which is usually overkill for the regular rock player (not even about being too hot, but it can be too big sounding)... the blackhawk is still a mystery to me, but seems to be very surgical, maybe more than the aftermath
and the only alnico model that gets close in output to the ceramic models is the nailbomb, which I also feel it's missing something in the midrange, although it has lots of low mids

it's not about having a super distortion replacement, but offering a tonal flavor that seems to be the only thing missing in bkp range
something ceramic, rough and thick sounding in all frequencies, instead of sharp and focused, but without going as far as a ceramic warpig

Hmm. I wonder what a symmetrically wound ceramic Nailbomb would be like? Maybe that would put it in the ballpark. Perhaps a little hotter wind even to bring the mids up even more.

I have an unpotted '78 DiMarzio SD in my closet, it was in an -91 Tokai LP and got replaced with a Black Dog. Hot, fat and with a certain sizzle. Not bad at all, but it was overriding the guitars natural tone somewhat, and the sizzle was not something I always wanted there. I can't really recommend the Black Dog for you, it's not really AC/DC to my ears. The Riff Raff I own, is a whole lot different story.

Have you tried messing with the pickup height? The SD was set quite far from the strings in my guitar, and still it was hot. It'll change the tone though! One other thing: have you checked the pots in your guitar? Gibson often puts 300k pots there, and that I would change to 500k anyway. Actually, that would be the first thing I would check in this case, as that can sometimes be the crucial difference when things are 'almost there'. It'll change the attack too.

-Zaned


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Slartibartfarst42

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2013, 11:15:28 AM »
Good point on the pots. I found that even going from 500k pots to BKP 550k ones made a big difference so they should transform a guitar with only 300k pots.

As for the BKP version of a Super Distortion, I realise that BKP are unique pickups but Eric is right that they do provide a tonal reference point. We talk about a Holydiver with reference to a JB and other pickups in relation to EMG so why not a pickup that can use the Super Distortion as a tonal reference. I have no doubt a Bare Knuckle pickup that was in that tonal area would be better than an actual SD in the same way that a Holydiver is vastly superior to a JB. The nearest I can think of to a pickup sitting between the Holydiver and the Painkiller would be the Miracle Man (bear with me, there is some logic here) because I find it smooth, thick and warm like the Holydiver but also has a tighter and more aggressive edge to it for Metal. The trouble is that it's also very scooped in comparison to the other two and I'd prefer it to have a bit more of a push in the mids.
BKP owned:

Bridge - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; A-Bomb; Holydiver; Miracle Man; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Neck - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; Holydiver; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

GuitarIv

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2013, 02:33:25 PM »
I'm really eager to go after the Miracle Man next, however the lack of mids concerns me... I guess I'll need to try it to know :P

Brow

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2013, 04:17:06 PM »
I'm really eager to go after the Miracle Man next, however the lack of mids concerns me... I guess I'll need to try it to know :P

As a Miracle Man user, mines in an Alder bodied/maple necked BC Rich Super Strat, I don't find it to be scooped or lack mids at all.

They do have more low mids than high mids, which could give the impression of more bass than mids, but I certainly wouldn't really say scooped. It probably helps me that I use amps and speakers that have alot of midrange emphasis though.
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Slartibartfarst42

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Re: Bare Knuckles version of a DiMarzio Super Distortion.
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2013, 05:31:45 PM »
The scooped nature of the Miracle Man isn't anything like as bad as it looks on the EQ chart but I'd agree with Brow that it's heavy on the low mids. This helps to give the impression that it has a big bottom end but there are mids there. It's not like I had to drastically change my settings when I switched the Holydiver in my Jackson for a Miracle Man. In fact, with a Miracle Man in the Jackson and Holydiver in the PRS I don't change anything at all in my settings. The only difference is that I use DR Tite Fits on the PRS and High Beams on the Jackson.
BKP owned:

Bridge - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; A-Bomb; Holydiver; Miracle Man; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Neck - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; Holydiver; Sinner; Trilogy Suite