New PRS Series - Itīs USA and mid priced!

[Slartibartfarst42]

I think that broadly speaking we're all on the same page here. There's clearly a huge price hike between an SE and a PRS made in the USA so it makes absolute sense to have a model range that sits somewhere between the two and that logic is not just down to price. PRS is a well respected brand that many guitarists would love to own but let's face it, how many mere mortals are going to be able to drop Ģ2000-Ģ3000 on a guitar? I'd love one but even ignoring my limited funds, the sad reality is that I'm a guitarist of limited ability who plays at home and gigs in pubs so for what I'd use it for, I'd never be able to justify that expense unless I won the lottery! I suspect many other guitarists are like me. Conversely, I'd be inclined to believe that there are equally guitarists out there who'd love a PRS but can't afford it and won't buy the SE because it's 'entry level'. The whole 'student edition' tag doesn't help here either. As a result, I'm inclined to believe that there is a market out there for the S2.

So, if that's not my issue with it, what is? For me, it boils down to Twinfan's comment that the S2 is more like an 'SE Plus' rather than a 'PRS Minus' and that's where, for me, they've gone wrong. Like it or not, manufacturing a guitar in the USA is more expensive than doing so in Korea, which means that if they are to control the costs, they have to do it in areas other than labour and premises etc. and in this case, part of that means using SE hardware. That being the case, you are inevitably paying a chunk of the price difference over the SE for the privilege of having 'Made in USA' stamped on the back. Personally, I'd rather they kept costs down by making it in Korea with the SE but throwing more money at the quality of the components involved and leave the USA models as the absolutely top drawer guitars. So what is this extra Ģ400-Ģ500 going to actually get me over the SE model?

US woods, crafted in the USA factory - Nice and I'd like that but not at that price.
SE pickup built to US spec - Not remotely interested as I'll change them to BKP anyway.
Upgraded pots - Not remotely interested as I'll change them to BKP anyway.
Different tuners - Nothing hugely wrong with the SE tuners I have and though I may upgrade them, I'd rather choose my own upgrade.
US frets - Nice touch this but I can easily live without them (the US spec ones, not the frets themselves).
US nut - Again, quite nice but I'm not that bothered and I can easily upgrade that on an SE anyway.
Better carved body - Yes, nice again but I wouldn't be selling my granny to have this over the SE version.

I'm not saying I wouldn't buy an S2, but I doubt I'd buy a new one. If an S2 version of the Custom 24 came up about a year or so old and in mint condition I'd pay around Ģ600 for it as that's what a new SE costs.

[Twinfan]

^ yep, got to be right with you there on all counts.

A Korean made 'S2' with USA hardware, electronics and pickups (plus bigger frets than the really low/skinny SEs) would have been a better choice as a mid-range option for the UK I think.

However, as I said earlier, I think this range is for the guys and gals who won't buy anything other than a US guitar even if it is inferior to an alternative...

[Alex]

I agree with Slartibartfast42 and Twinfan. The question really is, if there is a market for these. PRS is doing so well because they make amazing top end guitars, and affordable ones in the SE range. Why do they need one model in between that is neither fish nor fowl, if
a) they already know the Miras don't sell well
b) the market bracket in the 800-1600 pound bracket is highly competitive, with many companies already well-established.

Furthermore, I think that PRS are overlooking the fact that used higher model USA models already sell at the price of the new models will go for. The second hand market, at least from my feel, is full of bargains. Nothing's sell at high prices anymore, which makes it unattractive to buy a new guitar. I think the mid-price guitar market has become very saturated and that manufacturers will feel the pressure of that very soon.

[Philly Q]

Now I've seen those "real life" pictures, the GAS has reignited a bit!

The body contouring looks very nicely done - better than the SEs. 
Presumably the pots are USA ones, unless they're getting lampshade knobs specially made to fit metric pots. 
The "minor" hardware (e.g. jack plate) looks like USA stuff.
I'd swap the pickups, so that's not an issue.
I've even got a couple of spare US bridges (hardtail).

Still not happy about the economical use of timber (I know that's politically incorrect).  But the bottom line, I suppose, is let's wait and see.

[dvorak]

I think I like them because I like my Mira so much. Looking at the real life pictures I think they remind me much more of the Mira than the SEs.

[WezV]

We keep mentioning these as similar to Gibson studios, but if you look at the current gibson line up of USA made guitars priced below a standard you have

*melody makers
*Juniors
*LPJ/SGJ
*studio satin
*Studio tributes (50's to future)
*studio
*studio deluxes

all priced below the standard range with various cost cutting measures applied.  All of these seem to mix within the epiphone price range.  all seems to sell reasonably well - although sometimes they start overpriced and end up selling well as end of line deals at a lower price


i can see why PRS would look at that and think they could do a better job of it. 

[Andrew W]

We keep mentioning these as similar to Gibson studios, but if you look at the current gibson line up of USA made guitars priced below a standard you have

*melody makers
*Juniors
*LPJ/SGJ
*studio satin
*Studio tributes (50's to future)
*studio
*studio deluxes

all priced below the standard range with various cost cutting measures applied.  All of these seem to mix within the epiphone price range.  all seems to sell reasonably well - although sometimes they start overpriced and end up selling well as end of line deals at a lower price


i can see why PRS would look at that and think they could do a better job of it.

I half agree with you. It would not surprise me if PRS could make a better guitar for this price point than Gibson, what PRS don't have, amongst non guitar nerds is the history and cultural cachet. There are plenty of people I know who have decided that they want a better guitar than an entry level but also hanker for something that looks like the guitars played by their heroes. It doesn't really matter how good the PRS Ss are, they aren't a Les Paul or a Strat and for that reason alone I'd be surprised if these new guitars sell well.

The other reason I wonder how this will pan out is the price of second hand guitars. As Twinfan pointed out, my '95 McCarty went for about Ģ950, which is peanuts given how good a guitar it is but I can't really complain because I bought my DGT for a bargain price so I've gained as much as I've lost really. The point is, I would not even consider buying a new PRS when the second hand market is full of really well looked after, premium quality instruments, at prices that are frankly ridiculous considering the amount of guitar you get.

[Zaned]

I've seen negative things in this thread about the multipiece necks. Why is that? I own a 2002 McCarty, which is a great guitar. But it too has a one piece neck (well, small headstock wings glued but I'm not counting those), and I'm not too fond of that. The angled headstock with the grain running out is the obvious weakest point of that neck. No volute there, no glued on headstock. I wish it had one of those.

If they glue the headstock in there, it'll only make the neck stronger. No grain run-out and glue is stronger than wood anyway. Or are you referring to a glued neck heel? That's a pure aesthetic thing, which I can understand  :)

-Zaned

[Twinfan]

I think the neck is one of the more important components of the guitar, and the way it resonates and vibrates is key to how the guitar sounds.  I think one solid piece of wood will respond better to the string vibrations than two or more bits glued together.  If you play on the cleaner/bluesier/dynamic side of things, then this is really important.

If you play chugga chugga death metal, then obviously it won't matter a bit!

[Dave Sloven]

We keep mentioning these as similar to Gibson studios, but if you look at the current gibson line up of USA made guitars priced below a standard you have

*melody makers
*Juniors
*LPJ/SGJ
*studio satin
*Studio tributes (50's to future)
*studio
*studio deluxes

all priced below the standard range with various cost cutting measures applied.  All of these seem to mix within the epiphone price range.  all seems to sell reasonably well - although sometimes they start overpriced and end up selling well as end of line deals at a lower price.

Here in Australia for the last six months the best deals have been on the Standard range.  SG Standards like mine have been selling for $1650, which is a long way under RRP (which is over $2K), whereas Specials etc have been discounted by $200-300 at best and cost around $1250 (i.e, $400 less) with a useless 'gig bag' instead of a case and nowhere near the finish (e.g., no binding on the neck, no pearl inlays, etc).  When you consider that a genuine Gibson SG case will cost you $200 the Special doesn't look like a great deal compared to the Standard.

[Zaned]

Yeah, we all have our opinions  :)

This is an interesting video on how finnish luthier Juha Ruokangas chose to make the neck for his 'Unicorn' model (very LP -like):

http://www.ruokangas.com/?p=63

Not created with chugga chugga death metal music in mind, I think  Also an interesting tip on the maple splines (at 3:40) he uses. I think I've seen one other finnish company start to use that same method too.

Ruokangas also adds an ebony faceplate to the headstock. Improves tone too, according to him..

-Zaned

[Philly Q]

On the one-piece versus multi-piece neck thing, I'm perfectly happy to accept the argument that various types of multi-piece construction give a stronger, stiffer neck - be it a scarf-jointed headstock, or a three piece construction like Hamer and Feline use, or some kind of multi-laminate. 

Whether or not any or all of those methods make a guitar sound better, I don't know, I have no opinion.

But in the context of this PRS discussion, Paul Reed Smith is a guy who regularly deconstructs his own guitars and reconsiders every tiny detail of their construction.  He must have come to the conclusion, long ago, that a one-piece neck is, from his point of view, "best".

So, from that perspective, a PRS with a multi-piece neck can't be anything other than corner-cutting and a drop in their own standards.

[Zaned]

..unless you start seeing that change also in the more expensive ones.

One likes the mother, other likes the daughter. And one likes both  :lol: Like the PRS stoptail bridge vs. a tune-o-matic: they do sound different. Is one better or worse than the other? No.
PRS does use a tune-o-matic variotion in their current singlecut though.

I still like the idea of a more strong and stable neck. Kinda makes me wonder, as the angled area of say a Gibson LP is the weakest point in the neck, doesn't that point also weaken tone transfer? That's one area where it would be nice to hold a few specimens where a some are made with a multi piece neck, and others with one piece. Otherwise identical. Not that I'd likely ever be able to do that kind of a comparison.

-Zaned

[Philly Q]

It would be a bit odd if he'd spent 30 years doing things like reformulating finishes, swapping to brass screws instead of steel, or changing to unplated bridge studs.... and hadn't considered the construction of the neck.  But who knows, you could be right.  :P

Personally, if I was getting a custom guitar built, I would probably ask for the three-piece Hamer style construction, on the basis that it would be stiffer, stronger and might help defeat dead spots.  I might even go for a volute, just because I kind of like them.

But, being a bit of a traditionalist, I've owned dozens of guitars with one-piece mahogany necks and - touch wood - apart from the odd dead spot I've had no problems.  I do remember one which had a slight twist/warp in the neck when sighting down the fingerboard, but even that was playable.

[dave_mc]

I personally think PRS are too large a company for the market to stand (certainly here in the UK)

you really should have told PRS that you were stopping buying guitars :lol:

There is always the argument of "For a similar price buy a 2nd hand USA model" and I agree with you on this, but there are some people around who just won't buy 2nd hand guitars. I find it odd myself, but these people do exist, I know several!  :lol:

I'm not actually that keen on 2nd hand stuff. Admittedly, the used market here isn't that great, and it's a lot harder to get to check out that used bargain on ebay here than it is in england (if the seller is in england), but yeah.

That being said, I wouldn't buy one of these either, especially if there were an easily available used "proper" PRS that I could check out.

Problem is that quality costs, so if you don't want to take the money out of an instrument anywhere you'd end up with the US prices in the end, and the same instrument too.

I find it quite cool that they are launching a more affordable guitar that can be enjoyed by a group that can't normally, or don't want to put down Ģ2000-3000 for a guitar.

It's going to be very interesting to try one of these out.

Oh I appreciate that, the problem is that if you cut the quality too much you lose what made the thing desirable in the first place :lol:

I just don't think... that they're much of an upgrade from an SE. 

That's my concern

On the other hand...

Some confirmation on the S2s:

* The guitars are carved, sanded, assembled, and built in the USA.
* They have an SE tremolo/bridge, and an SE Pickup built to a USA spec.
* They have upgraded pots, not sure if they're US or import.
* Tuners are pretty much US Phase IIs (i.e. early 2000s spec).

Sounds like an SE with US woods, basically.  As I said earlier, an SE 'Plus'.

Considering the wood is the bit that matters (from the upgrading point of view), you could probably make the case that, if you can just about afford an S2, you could get it and upgrade it later with better pickups etc. (though am I right in thinking that PRS doesn't sell its trems separately? if so, that'd suck, unless they made an exception if you proved you had an S2).

From that point of view (sitting on the fence here :lol: ) I'd far rather have an S2 than a pimped-out SE. You can't really improve the already-upgraded SE, whereas you can upgrade the S2 and (theoretically, anyway) have a better guitar in the end.

Though (as with any upgrading) you'd need to watch you just didn't end up paying more than would get you a "proper" PRS, of course...

On the one-piece versus multi-piece neck thing, I'm perfectly happy to accept the argument that various types of multi-piece construction give a stronger, stiffer neck - be it a scarf-jointed headstock, or a three piece construction like Hamer and Feline use, or some kind of multi-laminate. 

Whether or not any or all of those methods make a guitar sound better, I don't know, I have no opinion.

But in the context of this PRS discussion, Paul Reed Smith is a guy who regularly deconstructs his own guitars and reconsiders every tiny detail of their construction.  He must have come to the conclusion, long ago, that a one-piece neck is, from his point of view, "best".

So, from that perspective, a PRS with a multi-piece neck can't be anything other than corner-cutting and a drop in their own standards.

agreed