'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.

[Dmoney]

Maybe if y'all do a meet again it would be the perfect chance to do some double blind tests

[dave_mc]

Sorry :oops:

I was just saying. On the double blind thing that is.

Yes, there will be definitive differences between things that you could feel, of course. Neck joins between epis and gibsons, too. You could tell a feline lion from a normal LP nearly instantly for the same reason.

I suppose the interesting part would be before you noticed any of those things :lol:

I dont' see that much of a correlation between price and performance/playability/whatever, personally. Its there, sure, but its more of a 'pay more take less chance' thing.

No worries :)

And yeah. I suppose for the neck joint thing you could tell the blindfolded player that they weren't allowed to play above the 5th fret or something like that :lol: But then you'd still likely feel the difference in finish, neck profile etc.

Or if you really wanted to test the differences, I guess you could refinish both guitars the same way, and put as similar hardware as possible on each etc. But then you could probably (with some justification) make the claim that neither guitar was close to its original off-the-shelf state, which would probably render any findings almost moot :lol:

I still say better guitars tend to play better- have better fretwork, better fret material, better fretboard woods etc.- but as jonathan says, a lot of that can be fixed with some TLC after purchase (and you implied that, too- as you said, the dearer guitar should have more chance of being "right" out of the box, but of course you don't have to put up with a mediocre stock setup if you can do it yourself or pay someone else to do it for you). It would be interesting to try a cheap guitar which had been given a killer setup/fret dress by someone like jonathan versus an out-of-the-box more expensive guitar. Or maybe it'd be fairer to try both after that killer setup/fretdress.

[JDC]

Got watching chappers on youtube again with his PRS custom 22 vs SE custom 22 video, difference in sound is obvious, the SE being darker and having less beef but then I got thinking, if you just turn up the bass and treble on the amp surely that'll mask those flaws to some extent

[PhilKing]

I have a real 62 tele and a MIJ 62 tele custom.  Other than the lacquer on the neck, the feel of them is very similar (they really got the neck shape correct on the Japanese version).  I have original 62 pickups in the vintage and BK flatpole 52's in the MIJ.  So the pickups sound different anyway.  They both have an excellent sound, with the 62 sounding very like the Yardbird pickup set.  When I let someone play them both, they think the 62 is the dogs bollocks and tend to ignore the MIJ.  However I've had the MIJ longer than the 62 and used to play it a lot (it was my first tele).  When I had nothing to compare it with, people used to tell me what a great tele it was.  It still is a great tele, it's got all the feel the the 62 must have had when it was new.  Some of the mojo of vintage guitars is the way they age.  It's hard to emulate 50 years of sweat working its way through the lacquer and sealing the neck so that it's smooth but not a real satin finish. 

If the basic guitar is right, with the correct pickups and set up, the price doesn't have to come into it.

[Philly Q]

Or if you really wanted to test the differences, I guess you could refinish both guitars the same way, and put as similar hardware as possible on each etc. But then you could probably (with some justification) make the claim that neither guitar was close to its original off-the-shelf state, which would probably render any findings almost moot :lol:

That is going way beyond the original idea!  If you start refinishing, changing hardware etc you're almost getting to the point where all you're actually "blind testing" is the difference between two bits of wood.  :lol:

[Dmoney]

I just watched that video with Chappers

I don't think there is such a big difference. Maybe you could get close with pickup height and pole piece adjustments etc. They do point out that extra like new pickups, but also I imagine a quality setup (which they don't mention) would cost more on top of the guitar, although lots of places offer free setups when you buy.

The CU 10 Top is £2944 and the SE is £625. Is the CU really 5 times better? Is a £14K Collection guitar really 22 times better than an SE? It's already been pointed out that price to the consumer has nothing like a linear relationship to quality of an instrument.

This has convinced me to try some obscenely priced instruments though when I get the chance.

[JDC]

I would really like to see a comparison of 2 guitars with the exact same hardware and setup just to see how much difference the wood really makes. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the price difference between a £500 guitar vs a £2000 guitar is due to labour costs of different countries

[Twinfan]

The CU 10 Top is £2944 and the SE is £625. Is the CU really 5 times better?

Yes.

Is a £14K Collection guitar really 22 times better than an SE?

Yes.

[Dmoney]

The CU 10 Top is £2944 and the SE is £625. Is the CU really 5 times better?

Yes.

Is a £14K Collection guitar really 22 times better than an SE?

Yes.

Well the simple answer is no because that would suggest a linear relationship between the cost of an instrument and its quality and you've already spoken about diminishing returns with regard to items past a certain point but you can change your mind if you like. The Chappers video makes the 10 top and the SE sound pretty close although they may not be as pretty as each other and they may not play as well as each other out the box and they have different features (the sustain test is nonsense btw) and the complete tonal differences may not come out on youtube. I'm keeping an open mind and I do intend to try something like a private stock vs some other PRS guitars and hopefully take one of my guitars along too when I do, although I just hope I don't fall foul of the caveat that I need the ability to tell the differences anyway before I even start and I should find a place that also has a decent amp so they I don't ruin my chances by plugging it into something guff to begin with.

[gordiji]

 Lets not forget the biggest limiting factor, the hands & head that play ! My vintage hands are certainly shown up by many contempory models!

[Dmoney]

Lets not forget the biggest limiting factor, the hands & head that play ! My vintage hands are certainly shown up by many contempory models!

I don't think PRS' feel contemporary, although I've never played one with the thin neck they have as on option. The cool thing about them for me is they feel vintage, the trem feels vintage under you hand and with the way it moves, but the tuning stability and the couple of extra tonal options you get with the way they wire them up are actually pretty cool, say versus a normal 2 humbucker or 3 single coil based guitar. They are far from stuff like really modern shred machines, but they definitely hold their own against them. I don't think the hands and head are quite as big a factor as some people make out when it comes down to it. Maybe the head.

[dvorak]

The CU 10 Top is £2944 and the SE is £625. Is the CU really 5 times better?

Yes.

Owning both a SE CU24 and a CU24 I would also say yes. Without a doubt.

The cu24 is the best guitar I've played, I love it. But I feel it could be even better, and I bet a private stock could be the answer.

It's all about what it's worth it to us as a player, and I still maintain that it's a good thing that we a re spoilt of choice in all price categories.

[ericsabbath]

the difference from a korean PRS SE to an US made Paul Reed Smith is indeed huge in both build quality and tone (not to mention the woods grain, finish and hardware)
can't measure that by comparing proportional price numbers
if you were comparing the raw materials, hardware and labour costs, then an american Custom 24 would indeed be worth 5x the factory cost of a korean made one, but saying one is 5x better than the other is pure subjectivity

PRS (USA) is one of the very few mass producing brands that only puts out top luthier-like quality guitars even in their lowest ranges

on the other hand, there's many korean made guitars that cost half of a PRS SE while offering the same quality and features, so the price x quality argument shouldn't work for the SE lovers as well

personally, I'm a Les Paul guy, but I've never seen a Gibson with the build quality of an US made PRS
and I'm not bashing Gibson by any means

I don't believe the overpriced collector models are any better tonewise, although they may have unique finishes or some snake oil rare tonewood
they are expensive cause they are made for people that will pay whatever absurd price they put on

in the used market you can't beat the quality of a regular PRS McCarty, Custom or Singlecut in the US$1500-1800 range
one could argue that a used SE goes for $400, but I'd rather have one Famke Janssen than four Tilda Swintons  :lol:

[Twinfan]

I don't believe the overpriced collector models are any better tonewise, although they may have unique finishes or some snake oil rare tonewood they are expensive cause they are made for people that will pay whatever absurd price they put on

You don't know that if you've never played one, which I'm betting you haven't.

[Philly Q]

but I'd rather have one Famke Janssen than four Tilda Swintons  :lol:

Ouch, that's a bit harsh!  :o