best EL84, 12AX7 tubes that handles hi-gain pedals

[Lucas]

Hi,
Im just about to replace all tubes in my Orange Dual Terror amp (Chinese stock ones are going down..)
The amp requires x4 EL84 and x4 12AX7.
Can anyone recommends any EL84 and12AX7 valves that handle hi-gain distortion pedals without making them sounding muddy/fizzy ect.
Once distortion pedal is off I use loads of clean (amp) sound as well, so it has to be rich and full of harmonic aspect as well.

I`ve heard that JJ sets are perfect in that case. Actually I cannot decide between JJ and Messa Boogie ones.

The sound that Im after is more clear, modern with hi-gain Wampler Triple Wreck distortion pedal in the front of the amp. The tubes cannot be too muddy with loads of bass exposed to be honest.
I really like Messa Boogie amp sound, but putting MB tubes won`t obviously make Orange amp sounding similar.

So JJ or something else?

Cheers.

[Kiichi]

I got a Hardwired Tiny Terror (only 2 Preamp and 2 poweramp tubes), so I can share a bit of experience.
As I have tried a handfull of different tubes in different combinations and there are a lot of differences. Just for reference, my cab is a Marshall 2061x, which is a england made 2x12" with Celestion G12H30 speakers.

For powertubes I have not tried as many as I quickly stuck with "Tube Amp Doctor EL84 str", short the TAD EL84str. Now that change was done a while, but I will try to recall the changes. They certainly got me one thing: More balls! Made that little amp sound bigger for sure. Generally they are a little different than most EL84s. Some people claim they have some 6v6 flavour to them, but I canīt comment on that. To me it seems like they have more low and high end than the stock and a crunchier midrange. Also gave me more punch. Rocking tubes for sure, really like em.
Generally they delivered more beef and power, at least in feel.
I still wanne try some good old fashioned NOS Mullards as they are often said to almost be the gold standard for tubes (certainly love the one I have in my tube mic), but those are hard to come by and afford.

On the preamp I again tried some things more recently.
I always felt that JJ 12AX7 tubes were rather on the warm side, which I now use in my amp since I can freely mix preamp tubes as they donīt have to be matched I really tried several combinations. The actual combination I now use is a JJ in V1 to give me that warm, roaring, yet somewhat smooth base sound and then a Tung-Sol in V2 if I recall correctly as that is generally I very nice tube I found, organic, 3D sound (yeah that shitety term xD), but also rather trebly and to agressively bright for me in V1, so I use it to add sparkel and dimension to the JJ sound. Now I get what I feel is a very harmonically rich sound, which is roading but balanced, with great Orange character put for a little spin.
After all the V1 is the most critical one as it does most the lifting.
I tried both 12AX7 and AT7s in both V1 and V2. My conclusion was that the AT7s drop the gain too much for my use, which distortion only with this amp, gain @ 2 oīclock plus a Klon(e).
Different preamps are really your main concern here I feel as they really shape your tone, especially the V1.

Since you donīt seem to be using the amp for distortion you might concider using 1 or 2 AT7 tubes. Find one with a bit on the warmer side for V1, possibly a JJ would be nice if their AT7s are like their AX7s. That way you reduce the gain from the amp making it easier to get clean tones. Follow with something for a little sparkle, maybe something like a Tung Sol AX7 in V2. Then fill up with maybe JJs as they are good and not that high in price or 2 different brands again.

In the end chances are that you will try around a bit to find the combination and order of tubes that works best for you.

The JJ AT7 in V1 followed by a AX7 might be a good starting point though. Depending on how you get your tubes you could just get a JJ AT7 and Tung Sol AX7 first and try those in different positions to get an idea, then buy 2 more tubes, try different things again and really do this step by step as I did.
You could even just start with one tube no problem and walk that through V1-4. Although the phase inverter stage, which should be V4 should work best with AT7s if I recall.


When the actual amp experts chime in you will get an even better idea.

[Lucas]

Thanks a lot,

Truly rock tube, that`s what Im looking for. Stock ones sound too vintage for my taste. Don`t get me wrong clean sound has to be organic but with external distortion the stock ones don`t do the job at all. Don`t handle it at all.

So by the sound of it Ill try those TAD EL84 str (but will the fit into Orange Dark Terror due to its bigger size?????)

and when it comes to 12AX7 Im looking for more info about JJs and Tung-Sol... Same ones all the way through or mixed them as you mentioned??

Someone has some more experience with them?

cheers

[JJretroTONEGOD]

I only really use JJ/Tesla valves these days, they never sound bad, it handles high gain well and retains a lot of depth and warmth. I've used them in both fenders and vox amps and it definitely made the sound warmer and smoother in the high end, they are a huge improvement over chinese valves.

[Kiichi]

Personally I like to mix and match the preamp, but lots of people just go for one kind in all spaces.

With some tubes you certainly can go for them in all spaces, but if you are not after a very big, growly, warm sound (sorta like a Crawler in amp form) I personally would not go for all JJs, although that is a very common thing to do. I know I like my tone rather on the bright than the dark side (basecally only touch my tone knob to tame SCs) and with a organic rawness about it, so that is also just my taste.

When you mix and match you can take a tube whose character you really like and optimize it to your taste and the rest of your gear. This is what I did. I really dig the basic JJ sound, but although my Marshall cab is on the brighter side (that Marshall upper mid spike is somewhat there making for a lively agressive rock tone, but also wonderfull with cleans), all JJ was too dark for my taste, so the Tung Sol opens the JJ up and adds sparkle as I said.

I am an advocate of mixing as I like tuning the sh*t out of my things.
Really for now you can even just look for a single new preamp tube. Find one you like in V1 and that is about 80% of the sound imposed by preamp tubes. That basetone can be shaped by the other a bit, but V1 is THE tube in your amp.

When I tried different tubes I started with 3 pretty cheap (but not bad quality) tubes, a JJ, a Tung Sol and a Tube Town. Withing rather short time I added a few other which were mainly used for other projects. Still got some rather nice AT7s around, great tubes, like a AX7 but about 40% less gain (which is why I thought they may be nice for your V1).
Anyhow if you got 4 preamp tubes you could just get 4 different ones that sound interresting to you from what you read, maybe have something variable sounds in there like 1 JJ and 1 Tung Sol and then try each one in V1, see which you like best and then play around with the others in the other positions so optimize the tone.
There should be enough room to play around with and find something you dig I recon.
That is of course a little complicated when you get both AX7s and AT7s. I think both can go in every position though, though I think to have heard that the phase inverter (V4?) sometimes needs a AT7 or even a AU7? Dunno, cheack that and then go wild maybe.

Good thing tubes like JJs are pretty great and donīt cost nearly as much as some of the NOS tubes. Some of the NOS stuff is amazing though...lot of it overhyped and therefore overpriced too.
Thank god I got 2 of a lesser known but still brilliant Mullard kind for a resonable price for my tube mic...



I should stop writing these long essays...sorry for not cutting to the point....and repeating quite a bit of stuff^^

[Lucas]

That`s fine the more info the better especially when they`re extremely useful.

Will try to mix JJ Tug Sol like you suggested. JJ will go in the V1 for sure and will put 2 Tug Sols somewhere along with another JJ (2 and 2).

My main concern at the moment is if  those TAD EL84 str will fit into DARK TERROR, I`ve read that they are slightly different size in comparison to other EL84s.
But I suppose once you fit them into TINY TERROR no bother, they should be fine with DT as well. Them two amps are pretty much the same apart from second channel in DT. Or Im wrong???

once again thanks a million for help mate!

[Kiichi]

Ok now I am confused here mate. Which one do you have now, the Dark Terror or Dual Terror? I think you mean the Dual, as you said 2 channels and 4 power tubes, but you also put DARK TERROR in caps in the last post ;)

Anyhow, I think the dual terror is just a higher watt, 2 channel TT.

I just looked up how they are different in size and turns out they are shorter and wider. If there is nothing very different with the DT you should have no problem I think.

2 JJ and 2 Tung Sol sounds like a good plan. Are you going for all AX7 or are you gonna throw a AT7 in there too?

[Lucas]

Sorry, DUAL terror. I don`t even know why I mentioned dark one, but anyway little mistake  :)

2 JJ and 2 Tung Sol sounds like a good plan. Are you going for all AX7 or are you gonna throw a AT7 in there too?

to be honest, haven`t decided yet. What is the main difference in those two types? And both will fit no problem into the amp in existing sockets?
The good thing about Dual Terror is fact that valves dont have to be matched/biased so it means that I can throw anything I want (as long as they fit 8))?
Nearly plug and play?

[Kiichi]

to be honest, haven`t decided yet. What is the main difference in those two types? And both will fit no problem into the amp in existing sockets?
The good thing about Dual Terror is fact that valves dont have to be matched/biased so it means that I can throw anything I want (as long as they fit 8))?
Nearly plug and play?

Again, far as I know the DT is basecally the same as the TT. That means it is a kathode biased amp. Effectivly that means you donīt have to set the bias for the output tubes by hand, it does that automatically. However they still need to be matched if I am not terribly mistaken. Get a matched set of any EL84s and you can just pop them in. 
This does not go for the preamp though, those can be mixed at will, no matching needed. Any type of AX7, AT7 or even AU7 or AY7 (plus the 5751, more on that later in this post) works there can just be popped in.

The difference between a AX7 and a AT7 is this: The AX7 has a amplification factor of 100, the AT7 has 60. This means lower gain on the AT7, more clean headroom and a little less volume.
This is why I thought one might be for you, as they donīt get distorted by your distortion pedals as easily. Could be that your complaint with handling those pedals is that the V1 gets pushed into overdrive by the pedal and those two kinds of gain donīt mix in your ears. This could be cut out or reduced by reducing the gain by the V1.
However, AT7s most of the time sound somewhat thinner than AX7s, so if you went that way I would get a fatter and warmer sounding AT7 (again if the JJ AT7s are like their AX7s that might be good) and still follow that by something like a JJ AX7 in V2 so you still get a full and rich sound.
I hear a 5751 tube might be an ever better choice for this though, as it is about 70 gain, but as full as a AX7. Never tried that myself though as I do not need lower gain currently ;)

So have a thought about maybe putting a AT7 in V1.

Also be sure to see what you have in V4 (also check which is V4, should be the one furthest away from the input jack), which should be the phase inverter. If there is a AT7 in there, I would not switch it to a AX7. Basecally keep the type that is in V4 and just upgrade the quality for now I think.