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Author Topic: Scottish Debate  (Read 5782 times)

MrBump

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Scottish Debate
« on: August 06, 2014, 08:54:58 AM »
Anyone watch the Salmond/Darling debate last night?

You couldn't get two more different politicians.  Nothing new was talked about, no new ground.  But it was interesting to see the tactics taken by each.
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blue

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 02:40:13 PM »
from the bits I've seen, Salmond comes across as a loud mouthed, obnoxious bully.  Just my impression.  He does seem fixated on the "idea" of an independent Scotland, while using bluster to cover the fact that he doesn't really know how it would work.  Sort of "I don't care what problems there are, I just want it."
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MrBump

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 03:04:11 PM »
from the bits I've seen, Salmond comes across as a loud mouthed, obnoxious bully.  Just my impression.  He does seem fixated on the "idea" of an independent Scotland, while using bluster to cover the fact that he doesn't really know how it would work.  Sort of "I don't care what problems there are, I just want it."

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought.  I'm pro Union, but as a soft southerner I guess I'm irrelevant to the debate.  But there are things that I really DON'T want, particularly a currency union with an independant Scotland.

There was just too much ducking and diving from Salmond, I thought.
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Philly Q

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 06:02:18 PM »
Although the "Yes" campaign are still behind in the polls, Alex Salmond should really have an easy job of it in the debates - all I've ever heard him say is how wonderful everything is going to be in an independent Scotland, without needing to (or being able to) actually prove anything.  And it's simple for him to dismiss all the "No" arguments as negative and pessimistic.

Despite all that, Darling seems to have done pretty well in the first debate, from what little I've seen and read about.

The currency argument annoys me.  Salmond says it's Scotland's pound as much as it is the rest of the UK's - which is true - but he wants Scotland to leave the union.  It's like splitting up with someone then expecting to be able to come back whenever you fancy to use the kitchen or watch TV.  I realise that's oversimplifying it a bit.....

I can't even begin to imagine how complicated it will be unravelling various elements of the UK infrastructure if the Scots actually do vote for independence.
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juansolo

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 08:52:29 AM »
Salmond wants to go down in Scottish history as the man who gave back Scotland it's freedom. That worries me as he doesn't appear to be thinking of the consequences as much has his own personal agenda (self-serving politician in it for his own gains shocker).

Where I stand on it is thus. If it can be made to work and the Scots vote for it. Then good luck to them. But they need to sever all ties to the UK to do this. That includes financial ones. It means Scotland joining the Euro asap (I'm not sure how quickly that could be brought in) and it would have serious ramifications to a lot of business in Scotland. This cannot be overlooked.

I suspect Scotland is better in the union than out, and I can't help but feel that leaving it would be a catastrophic mistake that comes mostly down to generations of anti-English indoctrination. BUT, if as a majority that's what they want, then that is what they should get. I very much doubt there'll be any half measures regarding the currency, and any thinking there will be is delusional.
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JimmyMoorby

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 09:01:50 AM »
I can see why Salmond would want to leave the UK so Scotland can make its own decisions.  The Tory's will always be awful and be anti-scotland and the last Labour government might not have been 'that bad' had it not gone around the world starting wars and causing unrest...some thing few wanted.  Having said that at least  in the UK you can vote for for the party you think are the lesser evil but then in the same breath say he wants to join the EU where you cant vote for any one as such and you just have to be in it and always play by their strict rules. 

At least in our Country we don't have a load of out and proud Nazi's and Far Right National Front Parties representing us but then again i'm guessing those countries in the EU voted those people in to make a point.....they doint want to be in it but arent allowed to leave!  Welcome to 2014 !

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« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 09:16:25 AM by JimmyMoorby »

MrBump

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2014, 06:51:41 AM »
Well, I thought that the debate last night sucked.

Both parties were being disingenuous (more so than usual), there were blatant lies and mis-truthes.  Really a shocking display of bad politics.
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JDC

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2014, 01:57:33 PM »
I would ignore all the biased politicians and look at what economists say, that said I've only heard the opinion of 1 economist who crunched the numbers and his conclusion was there were no major gain or loss in GDP although a greater sample size of economists would be a more accurate representation of the available data

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JDC

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 06:38:07 PM »
Problem with those kind of articles is they mostly are anecdotes of the GDP equation, that's not important, the number at the end of the equation is

Obviously there are a lot of unknown factors in the equation but best and worse cases with margins of error (probably best represented in graphs) from an independent non-bias source would most interest me, granted it'll never happen

dvorak

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 01:36:22 PM »
Problem with those kind of articles is they mostly are anecdotes of the GDP equation, that's not important, the number at the end of the equation is
So what number should you put into the equation? Some overly optimistic cherry picked numbers like Mr Salmond is doing?

Did you read the articles, there was a lot more arguments based on a lot more than GDP numbers.
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nfe

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2014, 04:58:24 PM »
I suspect Scotland is better in the union than out, and I can't help but feel that leaving it would be a catastrophic mistake that comes mostly down to generations of anti-English indoctrination.

It's nothing of the sort, and it's down to the staggering arrogance of South-East English MPs at Westminster that it's ever painted as anything of the sort. Scotland would happily take Northern Ireland, Wales, and pretty much all of England above Nottingham with it. Hell, the ideal would probably be a vote to eject the South East.

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I very much doubt there'll be any half measures regarding the currency, and any thinking there will be is delusional.

Not having a currency union would hurt rUK. There's almost no chance they'd knock it back when it came to it. It has no negative repurcussions on rUK, and it means they wouldn't have to take all they debt on themselves. That said, it's not actually the prefered option of two of the three parties in the Yes Campaign, nor of the campaigns chairperson, or many of those who'll vote yes.

I would ignore all the biased politicians and look at what economists say

Why? It isn't an economic argument, as much as Better Together and The SNP think it is, it's an ideological and moral one.
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JDC

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2014, 05:07:10 PM »
For me it is, everyone is different though

nfe

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2014, 05:15:58 PM »
It would be a sad, sad indictment of Scotland were it to become the first ever nation to embrace or reject its independence on financial grounds. Almost as sad as if it became the first ever nation to reject it's independence!
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MrBump

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Re: Scottish Debate
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2014, 03:01:04 PM »
Ah, welcome back, NFE!!!

Economics does matter; currency does matter.  I know what you're saying regarding it being a philosophical argument, but you can't hide from the financials, because it's that very point which will impact people the most.

As an Englishman (yes, the worst type of Englishman - one born and raised (mostly) in the South East), I don't want my economic prosperity tied to a neighboring country which has no compulsion to adhere to sensible economic policy. 

I hate the thought of Scotland leaving Britain.  However, if that's what they vote for, that's fine.  But I don't want an independent Scotland bankrupting the rest of Britain.
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