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Author Topic: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller  (Read 9683 times)

screamingdaisy

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Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« on: January 03, 2016, 11:19:39 PM »
I'm looking for a bridge pickup for a Les Paul.  I plug into a Dual Rectifier, gain fairly moderate, and I work the volume/tone knobs a lot.  Most of the time I'm straight into the amp, but I keep a clean boost on standby in the event I run out of volume pot and need to take things to 11.  Most of the time I'm in E, some Drop D, and some BADGBE.

I've spent the last decade doing the low output PAF thing and letting the amp do the heavy lifting, but I want to change things up.  A couple days ago I installed an old JB/Jazz set I had lying around. I like the sound and could easily get by with it, but I'm not satisfied with it.  The JB reads 15.8k.

What I like about the JB is that it's pushing the amp harder for a more saturated sound that I can't get by simply turning up the gain.  I like the additional compression.  I like that playing lead sounds more even and takes a fraction of the effort.

My issue with the JB is that it has no body.  Lots of upper mids, somewhat honky, kind of empty in the low mids. Overall it feels thin, and it's particularly noticeable when I switch guitars to something that's fuller sounding. If I roll the JB's tone back to about 5 it thickens up and is more to my taste, but the low end starts to become wooly, which is fine for lead but rhythm gets a bit mushy.

What I want is something that's in the same general vein, but thicker/more balanced through the mids.  Not excessively bright, but I have a tone knob so I have some room to fine tune there.  I'm not obsessed over tightness; I like a natural low end that's neither over nor under emphasized.

Most of my own research suggests the 500T, Duncan Distortion, BKP Painkiller and Nailbomb.  I'm open to any and all suggestions, but am not really interested in vintage winds (all my other guitars are either vintage or vintage hot, I want something different).

Hopefully I wasn't too wordy/confusing...

SD
Les Paul -> Orange

Yellowjacket

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2016, 12:33:24 AM »
Hay, greetings from grailtone!!

The general disclaimer around here is that BKP have a different timbre than any other pickup manufacturer so it isn't productive to draw exact comparisons between the two.

The general conversations here in relation to the JB have indicated that the two similar BKPs are the Rebel Yell, which is close to the old 70s JB; and the Holy Diver, which is similar to the current JB.  The BKP tend to be clearer overall and I understand the Holy Diver is quite phat with an amazing lead tone.  The HD may be something to consider as well

Do you use 500k pots?  I have the Alnico Nailbomb in a LP Standard and it really bludgeons the front end of a recto or an electra dyne.  Like the Sepultura inspiration, it's a very hairy and warm pickup with quite a defined pick attack.  BKP in general tend to be surprisingly Dynamic for the high output pickups.  The A-Bomb screams for leads but it is more of a rhythm pickup in my mind.  Are you thinking the Alnico Nailbomb or the Ceramic Nailbomb? 

I tried a 7 string Painkiller in my friend's 26.5 schecter.  It has that nice, warm scatterwound sound that I like so much.  I haven't tried one in a LP so I cannot comment, but it is definitely powerful but also surprisingly organic.  Just expect something tight in the lows with a huge focus in the upper mids. 

I really think either iteration of a Nailbomb or even the Painkiller should all be great bridge position options.  The HD would be good too and based on what others have said, it could work in a LP as well.  Is this going in a Custom Shop LP or a Standard?

screamingdaisy

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2016, 03:38:45 AM »
Do you use 500k pots?

Yes, but I can change them if necessary.

The A-Bomb screams for leads but it is more of a rhythm pickup in my mind. 

Interesting.  I would've thought alnico would've done better for lead and ceramic for rhythm?  Are are both versions better suited to rhythm?

Are you thinking the Alnico Nailbomb or the Ceramic Nailbomb? 

I was thinking about asking if they could ship it with an extra magnet so I can buy one and experiment on my own.

I really think either iteration of a Nailbomb or even the Painkiller should all be great bridge position options.  The HD would be good too and based on what others have said, it could work in a LP as well.  Is this going in a Custom Shop LP or a Standard?

Custom shop.

Which order would you recommend them if I were a lead guitarist?

Which order would you recommend them if I were a rhythm guitarist?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 04:38:37 AM by screamingdaisy »
Les Paul -> Orange

Yellowjacket

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2016, 05:16:46 AM »
Ok, this is going to be an interesting topic because of the fact that you are modding an R9.  I remember you describing how it had the mid clarity of a chambered LP Standard combined with the low end Lunk of a Solid Body.  So it's both clear and huge sounding.  It's really hard to know what to recommend since you don't know exactly what you are wanting apart from a guitar that screams! 

Quote from: screamingdaisy
I'm generally running the JB with my tone control down around 5.  Takes off some sizzle and thickens it up, but also makes the bottom end a little wooly.  It's fine for lead since I prefer a looser bottom end, but rhythm gets a bit mushy.

In the end I think it's possible to tame the top end, but I can't add what's missing (low mids).

This quote from Grailtone is interesting.  I also know you are complaining that the mids with the JB are much too generic. 

I'm curious what the other guys here thing but I'm inclined to think beyond an A-Bomb and a Painkiller for this guitar because it may lack the focus in the low mids that you want.  Very tough to say for me. 

To answer your questions:

Quote
Do you use 500k pots?

With the A-Bomb, it is possible that you MAY have to switch to 300k pots but then again, you may not.  The pickup does have a pronounced cut in the treble so that may or may not work.  That being said, I can't help but expect that you will really like the pronounced and detailed mids, especially with your Electra Dyne.  Also, I recall you use a Roadster which is darker than the Rev F dual recto.  Perhaps the A-Bomb would get along fabulously with the Roadster?

Quote
The A-Bomb screams for leads but it is more of a rhythm pickup in my mind.

This was actually compared to the Rebel Yell; a pickup that I honestly think would be way to bright with far to much upper mids and harmonics for your liking.  I said that the Rebel Yell bridge pickup was 5% more a lead pickup while the A-Bomb was 5% more a rhythm pickup.  I can't help but think you'd like an A-Bomb over a Painkiller given that the A-Bomb has an exceedingly complex and detailed midrange as well as a very warm and organic character to the tone.  It also has quite the cut in the treble with a pronounced pick attack.   

Quote
Interesting.  I would've thought alnico would've done better for lead and ceramic for rhythm?  Are are both versions better suited to rhythm?

I can't comment on the C-Bomb but I believe that Agent Orange and other forum members can.  Apparently it has a more present treble, less mids, and a tighter bottom.  The more scooped version may more may not work.  Seems like the ceramic would make it more like the 500T?  But, the extreme mismatched coils give that hairy Sepultura-esque tone which is unique to that particular pickup.  It is pretty rad anyhow.

To answer the question directly, there is a lot more to the pickups than just the magnet selection.  You have to look at the pickup as a whole and forget about the individual components used in the recipe.  I really wish I had tried a painkiller in a LP since when pickups are in unique guitars, the perception of the pickup is coloured by the guitar that it is used in.  I felt that the Painkiller had the same organic, nuanced response to pick attack that every BKP does.

Quote
I was thinking about asking if they could ship it with an extra magnet so I can buy one and experiment on my own.

They won't.  They like to wax pot everything themselves at the shop. 

Quote
I really think either iteration of a Nailbomb or even the Painkiller should all be great bridge position options.  The HD would be good too and based on what others have said, it could work in a LP as well.  Is this going in a Custom Shop LP or a Standard?

Custom shop.

If you can describe how this is different from a garden variety LP Traditional, this would be helpful to many here.

Quote
Which order would you recommend them if I were a lead guitarist?

Which order would you recommend them if I were a rhythm guitarist?

I'll rank the pickups I have based on my experience with them.  I can also extrapolate a bit based on the feedback of other members here as well.

Lead:  1) Juggernaut 3) Rebel Yell 4) A-Bomb (Keep in mind that A-Bomb does screaming solos just fine)

I'd be inclined to put the Holy Diver at # 2 for leads but I understand the midrange is a bit more plain for this pickup than it is for the A-Bomb

Rhythm:  Juggernaut, Rebel Yell, and A-Bomb are honestly all tied for this.

Painkiller is also great.  As I understand it, Holy Diver isn't quite as good? 

Sorry not to come to any conclusion, I just want to look at all the possible options and see what others think. 

Bridge Pickups  Bright to dark:

Rebel Yell, Painkiller, C-Bomb, A-bomb, Holy Diver, Juggernaut, Crawler. 
Of these, I think the following could work:

C-Bomb, A-bomb, Holy Diver, Juggernaut, Crawler.

I'm sure there are perhaps other options as well but I'm curious what others say:

Back to the JB experience:  You want a pickup that does leads and howls like a JB but you also want:

1) Less pronounced / rounder highs.
2) More complex / detailed mids & clarity.
3) More weight in the low mids.

Based on this, I'm inclined to think a Holy Diver or Juggernaut would work.  If you wanted a really beefy pickup, there is always the crawler. The Holy Diver was recommended to me for a brighter instrument so I think that it would have the low end weight you'd like but I don't think it is quite as tight as the A-Bomb or Juggernaut.  The Juggernaut has a very modern voice so you may find it shockingly so.  Even with my super strat it has pounding low mids -like a sledgehammer- so I suspect it may be overkill? 

But don't rule out the A-Bomb.  If someone can compare a JB directly with an A-Bomb it would be very enlightening.  I think this pickup would have the howl, scream, and complex mids that you are talking about.  My only concern with the A-Bomb is that it may be too trebly with not enough lows for your taste?  ALso, what about the Abraxas?  I know it's a bit lower output with the A4 magnet but I just want to throw everything 'out there' as a start.

So far, my top two recommendations are the A-Bomb and the Holy Diver.  A-Bomb for complex mids, and Holy Diver for more low mid weight and superior lead tone. 

This is a wall of text.  I'm going to wait for others to contribute now.
Any desire to swap your neck PUP? 

screamingdaisy

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2016, 09:09:26 AM »
Ok, this is going to be an interesting topic because of the fact that you are modding an R9.  I remember you describing how it had the mid clarity of a chambered LP Standard combined with the low end Lunk of a Solid Body.  So it's both clear and huge sounding. 

Yeah, you have a bit of inside knowledge on this one. :afro:

I think it would be more accurate to call it clear and balanced rather than huge. The top, middle and bottom end are all accounted for with nothing really lacking or exaggerated. The top end is neither dull nor harsh, the bottom is neither boomy, absent, or dead/dull, and the midrange is neither scooped nor pushed with no obvious spikes. I could use a lot of corksniffer adjectives, but in truth it's just a nice sounding Les Paul that's arguably neutral.

Case in point, the bright ass stock Burstbuckers (1 & 2) never sounded harsh. They were crazy bright, but it was still musical with no ice pick. Tone knobs on zero produced no mud. I've been thrashing with Alnico 2. If I played blues or 50s/60s Rock I would've never changed pickups, but try as I might they're just not ideal for 70s/90s style tones.

For comparison, I have another LP that has a harsh upper mid spike and a thuddy low end, and another that is thick through the mids with a duller top end, which tends to make the mids sound congested and the bottom lack impact.

Quote
This quote from Grailtone is interesting.  I also know you are complaining that the mids with the JB are much too generic. 

Very bland.

Quote
I'm curious what the other guys here thing but I'm inclined to think beyond an A-Bomb and a Painkiller for this guitar because it may lack the focus in the low mids that you want.  Very tough to say for me. 

I don't think I'd say I want a low mid focus, more that I want a broader/fuller midrange rather than an upper mid focus. If that means shifting the peak down, I'm cool with that.

Quote
Also, I recall you use a Roadster which is darker than the Rev F dual recto.  Perhaps the A-Bomb would get along fabulously with the Roadster?

I use both, but I prefer the Roadster because it's smoother. It also doesn't thin out the way the Rev F does when I roll back my guitars volume.

Quote
Any desire to swap your neck PUP?

So long as it has good cleans and a bluesy lead tone I'm cool with it, so pretty much any of the smoother sounding covered PAF types should work.
Les Paul -> Orange

Alex

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2016, 09:44:57 AM »
I think the Alnico Nailbomb would fit perfectly, as it has a more balanced mid range and a tight low end, while still sounding organic.
Current BKPs: Miracle Man, Nailbomb, Juggernaut, VHII
Past BKPS: Holy Diver, Trilogy Suite, Sinner, Black Dog

littleredguitars2

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2016, 11:09:48 AM »
i had some great luck with the juggernaut in les pauls. i think it fit better than the nailbomb (i only tried ceramic though in an LP) . the rebel yell would also work well i think. heres a couple demo videos i made a while back

juggernaut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuCNEite9gg

nailbomb (ceramic)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlGMUyzxza0

rebel yell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65zOouArFDo
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CommonCourtesy

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2016, 02:01:02 PM »
I have one of each magnet in 2 Les Paul's and there's certain characteristics I like from both.

The alnico one is in a Les Paul standard mostly used for standard tuning stuff (and occasional drop tunings). Its got plenty of grunt, bite and thickness. I love it. Usually play that through a Marshall amp and sounds great. Sometimes its used in the band but mainly as a backup.

The ceramic is in a Les Paul studio used for drop c stuff in my band. Again slightly tighter and powerful when hit hard. Run that through a 6505+ but I have to turn the gain down to control feedback and stuff! I'm primarily the rhythm player and it suits me for what I need it to do.

I think the Nailbomb can cover a host of different sounds from 80's metal to the modern contemporary stuff. And if you roll your volume pot down you can get the classic AC/DC tones.

Also want to mention on my LP studio I've disconnected my bridge tone pot and that's brightened up the sound and given it more "zinginess"

screamingdaisy

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 09:37:04 AM »
After listening to a number of clips I've decided upon the alnico Nailbomb.

In the clips I heard it was aggressive and in your face.  Yellowjackets gave me a bunch of clips of various pickups to listen to and every time I went back to the nailbomb I got this stupid grin on my face.

Now I need a neck pickup to go with it... trying to decide on warm bluesy or clear bluesy.
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Dave Sloven

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2016, 10:41:56 AM »
People have used the VII neck with the A-bomb
BLACK HAWKS
IMPULSES
COBRA-T
WAR PIGS
STOCKHOLM
COLD SWEATS
MIRACLE MAN
TRUE GRIT

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darkbluemurder

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 03:36:06 PM »
People have used the VII neck with the A-bomb

Yes - I was one of those. That is a good combination which worked well in my Single Cut.
Ultimately I swapped the A-Bomb for something different and kept the VHII neck. I use it now together with a Crawler in the bridge.

Cheers Stephan

screamingdaisy

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 02:57:07 AM »
Recorded this today for Yellowjacket.  Tracks are pretty raw.  I was learning the song as I recorded, so... it is what it is.

Les Paul w/ JB in bridge (vol/tone wide open) -> Electra Dyne -> Recto 4x12 -> Sennheiser E906 -> M-Audio Fast Track -> Logic

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37532735/Forum%20Stuff/Screamingdaisy%20-%20Supa%20Scuppa.mp3

Like I say, I could easily live with this sound, but I'd like something with a bit more body (low mids?).
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Yellowjacket

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Re: Les Paul - Nailbomb vs Painkiller
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 10:05:34 PM »
I recorded something with the same EQ settings Screamingdaisy had but with my A-Bomb equipped production LP Standard.

LP with A-Bomb (vol/tone wide open) -> Electra Dyne -> Mesa RA 27" 1 x 12 Ext cab (c90 speaker) -> SM57 -> Focusrite Scarlett 18i6 -> cubase 8.  RAW audio, no EQ. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7qhq3f6cfjrc9v4/LP%20A-Bomb%20Electra%20Dyne%20Chug%20RAW.mp3?dl=0

If I was recording with a Sennheiser E906 out of a Mesa OEM v30, the test would be more accurate.  Still, you get an idea of the voicing of the A-Bomb vs the JB.