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Author Topic: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue  (Read 17204 times)

Alfi27

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2016, 06:28:51 PM »
I remember the VHII neck model as quite bassy and rounded as well, certainly more than the Mule. One thing that I want to try though, is to change the electronics to an RS-kit. The 57 Classics sound too rounded and totally lacks cut and bite, but I am almost 100% that there are 300k volume pots in there.
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AndyR

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2016, 07:56:19 PM »
On the pots in a 61, I was quite surprised that the 2016 SG 61 Reissues ("proprietary run" whatever that means - they were possibly/rumoured to be for the Japanese market) have 500K Log volume pots. I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the earlier 61 Reissues had 300K.

I've just switched mine because I want linear pots. The ones I had to hand happened to be 300K originally from my Faded SG :grin:. My LP Traditional has 300K Linear, and so does my Explorer, never felt the need to change them, so I decided "wot the hell, these old 300s will prove the linear vs log thing for me."

Anyway, on switching in the SG last week I found two things, one hoped for, one somewhat surprising:

1. The change from log to linear was EXACTLY what I wanted - I can now use the entire range of the pot. Suddenly I love the guitar a lot more. Before the switch, the volume controls were almost on/off switches compared to what I'm used to on the Trad and Explorer.
2. The difference on switching from 500 down to 300 was, er, utterly negligable! Mebbe a slight (pleasant) thickening on the bridge pickup, nothing more. I find a turn on the pickup mounting screws to be more noticable on clarity than the difference between 500 and 300. This was a bit of a surprise, not what I'd been led expect from internet wisdom I've collected over the years. I understand why it should make a difference, and I suspect it could be more marked with different guitar/pickups mebbe, but ...

My original plan was to order some 500K linear pots once I'd discovered that linear is really what I want for humbucker volume controls - I'm not going to bother at the moment. Mebbe the neck pickup could do with a 500 - but the strings are getting quite dead now, and I still haven't settled on pickup heights yet. I certainly don't need the bridge pup any brighter.
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Alfi27

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2016, 08:10:40 PM »
Yeah you might be right, but I need new pots anyway because they don't clean up as well as I'd wish. I have an RS kit in a guitar I am going to sell, so it won't cost me a dime anyway!
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AndyR

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2016, 12:08:21 AM »
I need new pots anyway because they don't clean up as well as I'd wish.

That's the trouble I was having.

I had the 57/57+ pair in the Traditional and they cleaned up stunning. When I put the Stormies in, I'd actually bought some of the BKP 550 log pots to upgrade it. I didn't bother using them in the end. On the the Trad I can have my lead sound on 10, crunch on 6/7, just hairy on 5, clean and funky on 2/3, with no great loss of volume. I adore this set up (I'm a single channel amp, no pedals, sort of guy).

When I got the SG, it had 57/57. Using the same amp settings as the Trad, the SG was usable down to 8 - a bit cleaner, not much. At 7 volume was going and it wasn't really cleaning up. Put it on 5 and I might as well have pulled the plug out! OK, it was still playing, but it had no guts and was still dirty.

People were moaning about newer 57s on a Gibson board, so I thought maybe there was something in that. I was going for Stormies anyway, so I moved that forwards.

And guess what? EXACTLY the same issues. Stormies sound a bit like what 57s are trying to achieve but more musical, sweeter and more clarity. But even given those improvements, I still had the cleaning up problems on the volume control.

I was wracking my brains to try and figure out the difference between the Trad and the SG. And then I found out the specs somewhere. Les Paul Traditionals have 300K volume pots, but that's not the important bit, they have Linear Tapers, not Logarithmic or "Audio". The SG had 500K, but Logarithmic/Audio taper.

The minute I switched to using Linear Taper in the SG I got the cleaning up reactions I want (I don't think the 500/300 matters unless you're unlucky and it's muddy enough to really need some help).

I'd got from somewhere that Volumes ought to be Log/Audio, not linear - I've had that for years, never questioned it. Of course, some log tapers are steeper than others - so some will feel more linear for longer on the turning of the knob. The set I put in my Faded SG a few years back aren't too bad - but they definitely have a sudden step, so I'm gonna get that one some linear volumes.

BUT... having said all that...

I have an RS kit in a guitar I am going to sell, so it won't cost me a dime anyway!

I'm all for this approach!!!

The two volumes I used for the SG last weekend, I had to prise them off the circuit board I took out of the Faded SG several years ago... Didn't cost me nothing except a slight hole in one finger! (Oh, and one circuit board - there ain't gonna be no using that again :grin:)
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Alfi27

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2016, 01:37:21 AM »
Very interesting reading! One thing I found odd though, is your experience with the BKP pots. I have four of them in my P90 equipped LP Special DC and they clean up exactly how I want them to! When you roll from 10 to 5 the drop is quite steep but that is how it should be imo, because I often use the neck pickup with the volume set low for clean and the bridge pickup at 10.

Played the SG a bit tonight, and I almost hate to admit it but it does sound great...! Could the lows be a little bit tighter? Sure, but that will probably (hopefully) get better with the RS kit. I might try a Mule or VHII in the bridge position just because I am curious, but for now, I am satisfied with the tones I'm getting! :smiley: 
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AndyR

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2016, 09:13:22 AM »
Hehe - NOTHING wrong with the BKP pots, except they're still unused in the plastic bag I bought them in!! :grin:

The ones I put in the Faded were before BKP started doing pots. The BKP ones were bought for the Traditional, but when I got the Stormies I was in too much of a rush to hear them and didn't want to faff about with all the electrics. I was intending to do it later, but the guitar just sounded and felt right, so the only reason I had the back off since was to check out what was going on in there when the SG wasn't co-operating quite as well.

I've found the article that gave me a start on figuring out what I really wanted. I found this after I heard rumour that the Trad had 300K Linear and I was looking to buy some:

http://www.axesrus.co.uk/CTS-Pot-Split-Shaft-p/cts59.htm

After reading that, I realised that when I played live I was a bit unusual compared to most guitarists. I can only assume it was something to do with me being lead guitar and lead vocalist, so minimal volume/tone control moves between 8/10 were NOT what I needed personally - I felt too busy doing other things, I wanted to be able to yank the thing down halfway to clean up but not lose that much volume. I was playing Far East guitars, so probs they were linear.

Now I only play at home so I fit the profile of someone wanting linear - but when I got the Traditional I did feel a bit "WOW this is the best guitar I've ever had for cleaning up - how do they do that?!?!?".


It's definitely personal preference and how you want the instrument to respond - no one way is right or wrong. The pots I'm yanking out and putting in the box are someone else's "that's the business" pots - hell, the pots I yanked out of the Faded X years ago turned out to be just what I wanted last weekend :grin:
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Alfi27

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2016, 11:24:24 AM »
You are totally right, it's all about preferences! I have decided that I want to get a set of Mules for the SG when I have the funds (when i have sold something), because I feel like they are "essential BKP" and it's a real shame that I haven't tried them even though I have tried almost every other model :tongue: I also think they will sound great in the guitar, a versatile and tight sounding PAF is everything I need! I have so many other powerful tone shaping tools in my Kemper that I simply cannot go wrong with it, because the fundamental tone from the guitar/pickups will be of such high quality either way :smiley:
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Alfi27

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2016, 12:46:31 AM »
Alright, so I ordered a Mule set today! I have to say that I am very, very excited! It seems that some people think they are very bright, and some people think they are sweet and rounded. Not sure what to believe, but I think they will be a great match for this guitar nevertheless! Feel free to share your experiences with the Mule also :smiley:
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AndyR

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2016, 09:12:10 AM »
I've got them in a 335 - it'll take a lot to get me to move them out of there (and not just cos it's a complete pain switching pickups on a 335 :grin:)

It seems that some people think they are very bright, and some people think they are sweet and rounded.

I think they're both - and you can accentuate either aspect with the pickup heights.

The "big three" compare in the top-end, for me, as follows:

Stormy Monday - Bright, a sweet bright
Mule - Less bright, with a pleasant hairyness/rasp to it
Riff Raff - As bright as Stormy, but harder, more biting/cutting

All three can cover each other's territory, but each excels in its own.

My favourite is the Stormy. That's purely down to the imaginary "PAF" sound in my head, the music I play, and how I expect/want a humbucking guitar to behave in my hands. I just find Stormy Monday most versatile.

Look at it this way, in my hands:

The Mule does sweet and rounded, but not as effortlessly as the Stormy Monday does.
The Stormy Monday does raunchy and raspy, but not as effortlessly as the Mule does.

In an ideal world, I'd have identical guitars with the different pickups to get the different vibes. My missus would not be able to tell the difference, but she would notice that I play different kinds of music and with a different approach on each guitars.
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Alfi27

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2016, 09:57:27 AM »
Thanks a lot, Andy! From my understanding the Mule is often considered the allrounder in the BKP range, but I am sure the Stormies are just as versatile maybe except for the most heavy stuff. However, I actually didn't find them lacking in that department and they were quite tight. How would you compare the Stormies and more importantly, the Mules, to the 57' Classics in your SG? I found them a bit dark with the original 300k pots, but now with 500k they are much brighter (maybe a bit too much). They are not bad pickups though, and if my point was to have 100 guitars and I only were to upgrade the ones that really needed it, I would probably leave them alone. But now I am selling every guitar except two, so I think I can justify BKPs on both of them :tongue:
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AndyR

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2016, 11:26:03 AM »
I can more easily compare The Mules to the 57 Classics that were in the 335 - I think it'll help, though.

I liked the 57s but they were slightly lacking in something. A little bit of clarity maybe, but something else. I've since read someone else say that the 57's top end is a bit "brutal" as in "unrefined". What they meant was that when you push the amp, it's not entirely as pleasant as it could have been - I seem to recall "bright and mushy" was the description. And they talked about this extra "rasp" they could hear that they didn't like.

I didn't think my 335 was doing anything particularly bad - it just wasn't as wonderful as I imagined it could be. Some days it wasn't terribly inspiring to play.

Now, when I switched, I already knew how the Mules worked in my Tokai Love Rock. I just had this feeling that what the 335 wanted was that vibe (I also considered Riff Raffs for "more rock and roll", and Stormies too - but I didn't know Stormies then, I imagined they would be TOO vintage for me, mellow jazz vintage... I was so wrong!). Eventually I decided to bite the bullet and not buy new pups but spend a Saturday swapping the pickups over to see what happened. The 335 "came alive". It was the same guitar, even the same tone, but just "more". Obviously there was the "new strings and set-up, perhaps that's all you're hearing" doubts, but it's a couple of years since the swap, and everytime I pick the guitar up I love it - new strings, old strings, whatever.

The 57s worked OK in the Tokai - but the slight "blanket over the speaker" moved from the 335 to the Tokai. I've since moved that set into my Explorer, and of the pickups I've tried in there (including Riff Raffs and MQs), the 57s are the most succesfull. But it still has a slight "uninspiring" vibe when compared to the 335 (Mule), my LP Trad (SM), my 61 SG (SM), and my Faded SG (RR). (The Tokai has MQs, by the way - I've yet to really find the guitar that wants them, it's close, but not quite)

Next time I restring the Explorer, I intend to put the 57/57+ set (from my Trad LP) in. I suspect that the slightly hotter bridge pickup might make a fair bit of a difference.

=========

Now, back to the pots and this guy's "57s have brutal top-end". When I first heard that, I didn't realise that most of my 57 equipped Gibsons had 300K pots. In fact, I don't think I've played 57s with 500K. But I have played Mules and Riff Raffs (and MQs) with 500 - they are fine with the extra clarity, but I can imagine now how the 57 might seem slightly less pleasant (unless that's the tone what you want! I must admit I've seen plenty of guys on Gibson forums etc say, "replace the pots and you'll be good with the 57s, don't waste your money on new pickups").

My gut feeling is that, regardless of the pots that are in there, you're going to find what I found when I swapped the 57s for Mules in my 335 - the stuff you like about the 57s will still be there but improved. The stuff you don't like, the doubts over "is this the best it could be" will be gone immediately, and (if they're the right choice for you for that guitar) won't ever come back.

I know they're different magnets, etc, etc... but, in my experience, Mules (more than Stormies) seem to be what 57s would like to be when they grow up! :smiley:

In fact, yes -

1) In the 335, I wanted the same vibe as the 57s, but better - Mules did what I wanted.
2) I wanted a slightly different vibe than the 57s in my LP and 61 SG, Stormies did what I wanted.
In all cases, I kinda lucked into it :grin:
but I have realised, while typing this reply:
3) It's Mules I want in my Explorer, isn't it?


ALSO!! WOWW! I suddenly have answers for the Tokai and the Faded SG.
1) Tokai gets the Riff Raffs - it can cope with RRs easily
2) The Faded SG gets 300K pots back AND it gets the MQs back (it had them before, after the pot changes, but it was too bright and not humbuckery enough for me at the time)


OK, now I'd better do some work :grin: :grin: :grin:
(mebbe order some pots first :wink:)
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Alfi27

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2016, 12:14:47 AM »
Sorry for the late reply! Did you get any wiser, Andy? :laugh: I spoke with a guy yesterday who had Mules in his Explorer actually, and he said that it sounded amazing!

My Mules shipped today so there will most likely be a review coming up next week. This time I will try to get some sound clips, like I have promised a dozen times before but never got to do :tongue:
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 12:16:20 AM by Alfi27 »
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AndyR

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2016, 08:52:31 AM »
I did actually :cool:

1. I'm almost certain that Mules is what I want in the Explorer.
2. I think the MQ/RR swap is going to happen.
3. But I just took delivery of a Yamaha Revstar with P90s - a bit distracted by that at the moment! (https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=33791.0) I do think this will help with figuring out the MQs, though.
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Telerocker

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2016, 04:57:54 PM »
Mules are very balanced so you will hear all frequencies without a midspank. Yes they can be sweet, but the topend is clear. The bridge can rock. You should hear Mules through my RV50MKI with the master at noon.
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Alfi27

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Re: Pickups for Gibson SG 61' Reissue
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2016, 11:56:39 PM »
That's what I though. For some reason I don't find it as natural to use the tone knob with humbuckers as with P90s and other singlecoils, not really sure why :laugh:

The guitar just came back from my local luthier after moving the strap button to the upper horn, fret level and general setup. Personally I thought the action was too low, but after raising it a bit the guitar just plays perfect! I almost hate to say it, but both this SG and especially my LP Special DC has more magic going on, plays at least as good, sounds just as good and cost me about 1/4 each compared to my LP CS 1960 Reissue... And the R0 is a very good guitar, one of the best Custom Shops I've played.
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