Painkiller vs Juggernaut

[Le Mouk]

Hello!
It’s been a solid ten years since my last post here, but I’m in the market for a new set of BKP, and I need some help from the community.

I’m currently upgrading an used Carvin DC127, to help taming a GAS crisis without busting the bank. The guitar I’m upgrading is neck-through,  mahogany neck’n’body, maple top, ebony fingerboard.
I’m in love with that guitar when it comes to playability, but don’t really like the C22s  stock pickups.
They’re good at everything, but great at nothing, if that makes sense...?

I play mainly heavy music. My ideal tone would be in the ballpark of Killswitch Engage/Lamb Of God/Gojira/Parkway Drive/Caligula’s Horse/etc. But I’d like some versatility, since I like to play some clean stuff on my own, and some heavy 80’s flavored stuff.
I bought a A-Bomb/CS set 10 years ago for an Washburn Idol US Custom, and never looked back.
But this time I’d like something more modern. I read countless reviews, and narrowed my first selection to Juggernaut, Ragnarok, Aftermath or Painkiller.
I had the opportunity to try both Ragnaroks and Painkillers on my rig, which I think is by far the best way to figure them out. The Ragnarok are on an Ibanez S, and the Painkillers on an Ibanez RG. Based on sound clips/vids and reviews, I had great expectations on the Ragnaroks, but surprisingly, I didn’t like them at all. I’ve found them hard to control, like they have too much of everything. But I really enjoyed the Painkillers, very responsive, great pick attack, and thumping palm-mutes. And I surprisingly found them much more versatile than expected, again based on reviews and clips.
Comparing to my Washburn’s NB, I’ve found the PK much more "flattering" and easier to play. With the NB, I have to fight a little bit, if that makes sense. The PK are way more forgiving, but still dynamic enough to my taste and to my playing skills.

But I’m wondering how they compare to the Juggs, and can’t find a lot of information on that subject? My favorite aspect of the PK are their punch and harmonic content. And I like the single-note riffing to have some "bloom" after the initial attack, which the PK provides. But what about the Jugg’s?

I’m pretty much sold on a Painkiller for the bridge, but I’m wondering which neck pickup would eventually be a good match...? I quite liked the PK neck, so maybe the PK set would be the obvious choice, but I’d like to know if somebody have some first hand experience to share on mixing à neck pickup with the PK bridge?

Thanks a lot for your help!

[one]

I friend of mine says both PK and Juggs are the best in the catalogue and his two favourite pickups ever, he claims they are the absolute kings in both classic metal and modern metal styles.

[Le Mouk]

Thanks for the answer!
Yeah, I’d like to try both side by side, or at least to read from somebody who can share his experience. I read many reviews on both, but no direct comparisons.

I’m afraid that the Juggs could be less "in your face" than the PK. But I read so many comments raving about the Jugg’s clean tone, that’s why I was thinking of a Jugg neck/PK bridge combo.
But there’s a significant output difference between the Juggs (8.9k) and Painkiller (13.1k) neck pickups.
It would be 8.9k in the neck vs 15.6k in the bridge.
Is is a big concern or nothing to worry about?
Is this something I should ask to the BKP guy, to balance the neck output to the bridge output?

Also, does anybody experienced the PK in an all mahogany superstrat-style guitar? I’ve always found that guitar to be more on the treble/hi-mids side, but I thought it was because of the Carvin C22s stock pickups. At the moment, the guitar is barebone on the workbench, with no hardware on, so I’m not sure about it. Maybe I should put some new strings on, and pay more attention to their accoustic qualities...?
I know people quite enjoy their PKs in mahogany, but PKs being mid-focused pickups, I’m wondering if they would work in my guitar

[Le Mouk]

I watched more clips, but it’s just more confusing, because the Raggs I tried sounded nothing like the clips. Based on the clips and descriptions, I was convinced to order a set. I’m glad I didn’t! I prefer the stock Carvin pickups than the Raggs! No wonder you can buy them second hand everywhere. I guess they work great in Misha’s guitars, with Nolly’s EQ added, but otherwise...?
I think I’ll go for a PK set, instead of trusting the clips. I was really interested in the Juggs, but I can’t really trust the clips, considering my experience. I played (and still play) the NB for a decade, and I cannot find a really accurate representation of them in clips neither, but still more accurate than the Ragnarok’s.

[Le Mouk]

Can somebody comment on the Jugg’s output? I keep on reading they’re great at thumping palm-mutes, which is mandatory to my style of playing, but on another hand, they’re the lowest output pickups in the contemporary line, just before the BlackHawks and Impulse.
Does the output influence the "oomph factor"? I guess not that much, since the BlackHawks have lower output (8.2k for the bridge)  than most pickups from the vintage range...?

[Dave Sloven]

The Black Hawk has a lower resistance reading, not a lower output.  It is one of the higher output pickups in the range, on a par with the Painkiller.  Resistance is futile in the case of the BH.

The Impulse's resistance readings seem much closer to its perceived output.  Why the BH is so different I really don't know but it is not a good comparison.  The Impulse is lower in output than the BH and closer to the Juggernaut in real output.

Output should really be judged by the volume of the signal hitting the input tube of your amp, but I don't think there's a convenient measurement for that.  My Black Hawk (alnico) is more than a match for my Nailbomb (alnico) in terms of output and I'd say it's as powerful as my Miracle Man and Warpig (alnico).  It's definitely more powerful than the Cold Sweat.

[Le Mouk]

That output/resistance thing is rather confusing!
Well, to sum up my thoughts:
Painkillers +
I tried and liked them on my rig (which by the way is Triaxis / Fryette 6L6 2x50w power amp), in an Ibanez RG. They seem to cover everything I’m looking for in a pickup, even if I’ve found them a bit generic in the clean department. My friend’s Painkillers are 2-conductors, I didn’t tried the splitted tones. But I plan to use that guitar mainly in a metal band situation anyway, meaning under hi-gain at hi-volume. So the clean tones aren’t my main concern for that one, but it would be great to be able to use that guitar in other contexts as well, playing quieter stuff at home.
Enter the Juggernauts. I’ve constantly read they’re particularly versatile, and on paper it seems they’re as good as the PK in the heavy department. But after my Ragnaroks disappointment, and knowing they’re quite logically related to the Juggernauts, I’m afraid I’ll dislike their voicing as well.
Choices, choices... 

[Le Mouk]

I have to say that I love my Nailbombs in hi-gain/loud volume situation mainly, not so much for quiet at-home playing. I guess it’s the downside of them sounding so tight and controlled under loads of gain?
My favorite guitar for home-playing is a Mexican strat with the Gilmour set of EMGs. In my experience, nothing beats active pickups for low volume playing, or to record using plugins. I still hate Strats for their cheap toy-like visual, their damn tendency to go out of tune, their painful bridges, their poorly ergonomic neck joint, the list goes on, but I have to admit that I just love that one.
I tend to play very hard in live situations, so I set up my live guitars/rig accordingly : high string action, less gain at the amp, and tight pickups.  But in result, they’re just hard to play softly.

For the guitar I’m currently upgrading, I’d like a versatile one, not a nasty rock machine only. Well...
Juggs or Painkillers? Set, or mixed? Thoughts?

[Yellowjacket]

Juggs are exceptional in a bright guitar and they skew heavily that way.  In a dark guitar, I expect the top end to be rolled off and quite diffuse sounding while there is a danger of the lows beginning to predominate.  This would be far less of a problem with a 6 string in E standard and drop D.  It also depends on your amp.

Juggs are mind blowing in an Ibanez RG, basswood body, bolt o  maple neck, hip shot hardware.  Great, iconic metal tone.

Stick to painkillers in a darker guitar, especially with a dark amp.  With a bright amp, juggs may work.

[Yellowjacket]

Re: output.  Juggs are higher output than an alnico nailbomb.  They pound like a sledgehammer as well.  The lows track fast but they are huge, thick, and powerful.  The top end purrs and it has a sort of rolled off feeling in the upper mids, but a bite on the upper treble as well.  The feeling is great.  Those upper range frequencies are added in by a bright  guitar, while the low end of the pickup compensates for a lack of lows from the instrument itself.

[Le Mouk]

Thanks for your answer.
I guess the best thing I have to do now is to figure out how my guitar naturally sounds. It sounded rather bright with the C22s stock pickups. But being full mahogany neck/body, it should be quite balanced. And I plan to go for a simple stain and oil finish, which should sound more open than a thick polyurethane finish.
Anyway, I found the Painkillers surprisingly versatile, and you told me that the Juggs can sound mean for the heavier stuff, so I should have my requirements covered either way!

[Le Mouk]

Painkillers ordered! 

[Yellowjacket]

Excellent.  Have fun!

[Le Mouk]

I’ll let you know my thougts once I’ll have them installed.
Thanks for your help !

[Le Mouk]

Well, I received my pickups. But I had to wait more than a week to find some time to install them, which was a pain in the ass! (the wait, not the installation!)
I still didn’t had the time to try them in a band situation, at full volume, on my live rig, but I already tested them on my home setups (small practice combo / ProTools rig) , more than enough to say that these Painkillers sound really great compared to the stock pickups they replaced.
They have a good punch in the chest when palm-muting, a rich harmonic content (pinch harmonics just scream), and they have a really unique voicing I just love.  Mids are really thick and meaty, covering all the right frequencies, I have no worries they’ll just rape the mix! No overwhelming low frequencies, and the treble are aggressive and sharp, but without being piercing.
I’m really happy with my choice so far. Can’t wait to try them on my "real" rig, it’s a pain being so busy these days not being able to go to the studio. I’ll write a detailed review once I’ll find the time to unleash those PK.