Username: Password:

Author Topic: Apaches Vs Sultans.  (Read 9118 times)

StefanPrice

  • Guest
Apaches Vs Sultans.
« on: April 06, 2005, 03:09:59 PM »
Hi, Has any used both the Apaches and Sultans?
I am wondering what the difference is, I like the sound of both the Seymour Duncan Vintage and the Seymour Duncan Alnico pro 2's which are the the non-boutique versions of the BK Apaches and Sultans.
With the Sultans being Alnico 2 and therefore a softer magnet are the apaches more percussive and is this the only difference?
Stef.

lulusg

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 800
Apaches Vs Sultans.
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2005, 03:40:57 AM »
:) Hi, I would like to know more about the two variations, on polepiece heights 54 & 59 staggers that  are use on the apaches depending on likeness, main differences is important. Thanks
Just passing by

Tim

  • BKP
  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1918
    • http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk
Re: Apaches Vs Sultans.
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2005, 07:54:10 AM »
Quote from: StefanPrice
Hi, Has any used both the Apaches and Sultans?
I am wondering what the difference is, I like the sound of both the Seymour Duncan Vintage and the Seymour Duncan Alnico pro 2's which are the the non-boutique versions of the BK Apaches and Sultans.
With the Sultans being Alnico 2 and therefore a softer magnet are the apaches more percussive and is this the only difference?
Stef.


You find both the apache and Sultan sets are nothing like the SDs-the Apaches are wound with Heavy Formvar for starters and use Alnico III magnets-the tone is classic  '50s punch although I've adjusted the bridge wind to make it  balance out a bit better-these are my fav Strat coils-all the classic tones are here 8)
Sultans have a touch more power and brightness to them although the 42 AWG plain enamel keeps the mids nice and complex harmonically.

As with all our sets, I scatterwind them quite heavily and this really does help them sound so much more open than mass produced pickups.

If you're around at the London Guitar Show, stop by the stand and try out both-you really need to hear AND feel the difference for yourself.
Tim
BKP - "Wound, made and played the traditional way --- by hand!" Amen.

Tim

  • BKP
  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1918
    • http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk
Stagger
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2005, 07:58:39 AM »
Quote from: LULUSG
:) Hi, I would like to know more about the two variations, on polepiece heights 54 & 59 staggers that  are use on the apaches depending on likeness, main differences is important. Thanks


In a nut shell the G pole is lower but there are small differences in the heights of all the magnets. INHO the '54 is a more useable stagger and I really like it but the '59 stagger has become the accepted norm which is fair enough. On the '59 the E and A are the same, the D and G the same, B lowest, the high E(sorry haven't got the exact measurements in front of me!)

I carry the '54 and '59 in Alnico V but only the '59 in Alnico III ate the moment.
Tim
BKP - "Wound, made and played the traditional way --- by hand!" Amen.

lulusg

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 800
Apaches Vs Sultans.
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2005, 11:11:30 AM »
Hi Tim and Thanks for the information, Would you be making the '54  in Alnico III any time soon.
Just passing by

Tim

  • BKP
  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1918
    • http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk
'54
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2005, 01:20:50 PM »
Quote from: LULUSG
Hi Tim and Thanks for the information, Would you be making the '54  in Alnico III any time soon.


I can grind some down for you if you want to try a '54 in Alnico III.
Tim
BKP - "Wound, made and played the traditional way --- by hand!" Amen.

lulusg

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 800
Apaches Vs Sultans.
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2005, 06:27:21 PM »
Thanks for the information. I would like to change the '54 custom shop on my 50th anniversary Stratoscaster for these pickups. Do you have reference on how good it would sound if we make them with the '54 gauge and ALNICO III compared to the  '54 ALNICO V and the 59 ALNICO V? What's your preference? Thanks again! Greetings from Mississippi!
Just passing by

Tim

  • BKP
  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1918
    • http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk
54 vs 59
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2005, 01:12:20 PM »
Quote from: LULUSG
Thanks for the information. I would like to change the '54 custom shop on my 50th anniversary Stratoscaster for these pickups. Do you have reference on how good it would sound if we make them with the '54 gauge and ALNICO III compared to the  '54 ALNICO V and the 59 ALNICO V? What's your preference? Thanks again! Greetings from Mississippi!


The '54 stagger simply imparts a slightly different balance of power string to string. Fender changed the stagger circa '56 to the slightly more uniform stagger that is commonly used now primarily to streamline production and have the E/A and D/G  magnets the same.
I actually like the '54 stagger both tonally and aesthetically but it's not everyones cup of tea.
Tim
BKP - "Wound, made and played the traditional way --- by hand!" Amen.

StefanPrice

  • Flyweight
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • http://www.stefanprice.com
Thanks Tim.
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2005, 03:51:24 PM »
Tim, I mean't that the Apaches are your version of 50's Vintage pups and the SD Vintage are their version.
Is that right?

There are a couple of other things,

Could you tell me if apart from the heavy Scatterwinding resulting in a more open sound, are there other big difference between the Sultans, and the SD AP2.
Its the AP2 that Mark has used in his red Schecter strat since 1984/85 when he changed from the SD Vintage, to Alnico pro 2, but if your sultans are virtually the same but with the hand-made advantages I would choose yours.
Are yours called sultans because of the Alnico 2 magnets in Marks Schecter?

Lastly, are the original Fender pickups, Alnico 3 or 5?

Sorry theres so many questions.

I hope to meet you at the show.
Regards, Stefan.
Got any Badges, Posters, Stickers or T-shirts?
Dire straits.

Tim

  • BKP
  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1918
    • http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk
Re: Thanks Tim.
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2005, 08:17:52 AM »
Quote from: StefanPrice
Tim, I mean't that the Apaches are your version of 50's Vintage pups and the SD Vintage are their version.
Is that right?

There are a couple of other things,

Could you tell me if apart from the heavy Scatterwinding resulting in a more open sound, are there other big difference between the Sultans, and the SD AP2.
Its the AP2 that Mark has used in his red Schecter strat since 1984/85 when he changed from the SD Vintage, to Alnico pro 2, but if your sultans are virtually the same but with the hand-made advantages I would choose yours.
Are yours called sultans because of the Alnico 2 magnets in Marks Schecter?

Lastly, are the original Fender pickups, Alnico 3 or 5?

Sorry theres so many questions.

I hope to meet you at the show.
Regards, Stefan.


I don't think even Seymour would profess to claim that AP II's are his take on a '50s spec -wrong wire, wrong wind, wrong magnets. The AP IIs were intended as a 'vintagey' sounding single coil.

The difference between the Sultans and the AP II's is ours are scatterwound, the wind is different as is the wire, so all in it's a quite a different pickup. I've gone for plain enamel wire, late '60s spec, simply because it sounds alot better than solderable poly that the AP IIs are machine wound with.

The Sultans are so called because of the overall vibe rather than trying to copy one particular tone. I'm 100% certain you'd prefer the tone of either the Sultans or the Apaches over AP IIs-I've rewound  over 20 sets of AP IIs for customers since xmas, converting them to Sultan spec and every customer has commented on the difference being remarkable.
The detail is in the mid range, poly wire and machine winding produces a spikey and grainy mid with poor note definition. Scatterwinding and plain enamel or Heavy Formvar yields  a much more dynamically responsive pickup with richer harmonic detail.
So many people ask me 'is there really that much difference just in the wire' and the simple answer is,yes, you'd have to be deaf not to notice!
Tim
BKP - "Wound, made and played the traditional way --- by hand!" Amen.

R/2e

  • Bantamweight
  • **
  • Posts: 210
    • http://www.ron2e.com
Apaches Vs Sultans.
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2005, 05:43:34 PM »
(Tim) you'd have to be deaf not to notice!

Pardon?
Just 'cos you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you

Tim

  • BKP
  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1918
    • http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk
What?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2005, 05:58:25 PM »
Who said that? :D

You know what I mean though Ron-you've heard it for yourself!
Tim
BKP - "Wound, made and played the traditional way --- by hand!" Amen.

R/2e

  • Bantamweight
  • **
  • Posts: 210
    • http://www.ron2e.com
Apaches Vs Sultans.
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2005, 11:18:42 AM »
Quote
(Tim) You know what I mean though Ron-you've heard it for yourself!


I have indeed! For what I am playing at the moment (50's/60's/70's, from Shads/Beatles to Kinks/Rolling Stones/Hendrix/Cream, bit of blues) the Apaches cover the ground better than anything I've heard or tried so far.  And everyone who's tried them hears the same thing - quality.

However I don't believe it's just the wire, or the magnets, or the scatterwinding, I think you are sacrificing virgins (imported, obviously!) every night to keep the Mojo going........ :twisted:  Whatever, it's succeeding.
Just 'cos you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you

HJM

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2330
Apaches Vs Sultans.
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2005, 11:35:08 AM »
Quote from: R/2e
Quote
(Tim) You know what I mean though Ron-you've heard it for yourself!


I have indeed! For what I am playing at the moment (50's/60's/70's, from Shads/Beatles to Kinks/Rolling Stones/Hendrix/Cream, bit of blues) the Apaches cover the ground better than anything I've heard or tried so far.  And everyone who's tried them hears the same thing - quality.

However I don't believe it's just the wire, or the magnets, or the scatterwinding, I think you are sacrificing virgins (imported, obviously!) every night to keep the Mojo going........ :twisted:  Whatever, it's succeeding.


They do that sort of thing in Devon, don't they???
Apache,VHII,Emerald,Nailbomb,MiracleMan,StormyMonday,BlackDog,Trilogy,Mothersmilk,Sultans+Sinner

R/2e

  • Bantamweight
  • **
  • Posts: 210
    • http://www.ron2e.com
Apaches Vs Sultans.
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2005, 12:11:03 PM »
Quote
They do that sort of thing in Devon, don't they???



Aarrrrr, so Oi believe. The black art of pickup making.........
Just 'cos you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you