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Author Topic: NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state  (Read 15764 times)

Johnny Mac

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2006, 02:56:34 PM »
I don't want ID cards either. I haven't got anything to hide but we never needed them before so what are they up to saying we need them now? It's just more bureaucracy and meddling in peoples lives and we need to get away from that not come up with plans for more. This government are f*cked anyway. They have never been so unpopular, so hopefully when they get elected out all this will get forgotten about and the next government will hopefully concentrate on more important matters and there are so many that get over looked in favour of nonsense.
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genocidal tendencies

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2006, 08:48:53 PM »
Frankly if it meant there were less schoolkids in pubs I'd tell the government just about anything they wanted to know about me. Unless I was a convicted child molestor on the run from the police or something, then I might be a bit more inclined to preserve my 'civil liberties'.

Also I completely and utterly fail to see the value of being elected. What makes the average uninterested, uneducated and unintelligent member of the public such a good judge of competence and integrity? Democracy makes about as much sense as a peanut butter and jam sandwich. Just why?

But that's probably racist or something nowadays, just forget I said anything.

jt

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2006, 11:55:06 PM »
:D It`s neither racist or sexiest its just plain stupid. Who says everybody is stupid or unintelligent ? What makes you so intelligent that you think nobody else is ?

Democracy is about majority rule. Politicians will have to come up with policies & ideas that WE the public will have to agree to. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.

Its true to say that the politicians have completely failed the nation & that they arn`t coming up with any policies or ideas worth voting on, it`s one of the reasons people dont vote.

As for ID cards. Dont be a Dog & get led round by the nose !!
ID cards will not protect you from terrorism, crime or anything else for that matter. Its a statement of fact that the 9/11 bombers all had ID cards. Its the main reason they were allowed on the planes !!!

The July bombers here in London would have also had ID cards as they were all British subjects.ID cards are about Governments wanting to control your lives, NOT about anti terror or crime.

It doesn`t work out that only people that have something to hide will not want ID cards. Its about the fact that what i do, were i go, what i read, what i listen to, what i think & what i say are my own Decisions  & choices & have nothing to do with this or any Government. Whether your smart enough or not my life is my life & i`m entitled to my privacy whether you like it or not or whether you agree to it or not !
 :D  8)
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38thBeatle

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2006, 07:35:20 AM »
I am glad JT, that you responded. I was going to and I had all kinds of things to say but you have nailed it. Our Government should never be seen as our "bosses".Power is loaned to them and is supposed to be handed back after their term is up.It is supposed to be handed back in the same condition as it was granted.This has not been done and as a result, the ability of our Government to "Govern" has been eroded to such an extent that they find themselves without any real ideas for coping with the modern world. I believe that democracy is so important that I would fight for the right of people to hold and express views that I do not agree with.For all its faults, democracy has to be better than a dictatorship. The danger that we now face is the rise of extreme groups( forget "right" or "left" wing labels-they do not matter at the end of the day)that are on the rise because of the vacuum that has opened up in the so-called "centre". The public are not too stupid to choose-they are not stupid enough and that is why they vote with their feet and do something else on poll day.If you check you will see that all parties are desparately looking at this as they know full well what is going on but they have themselves to blame.
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Johnny Mac

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2006, 11:28:26 AM »
Well said jt and Mr 38th!

If they ever pull this id card scheme off and the huge amount of high tech systems of gaining access to every move we make, the opportunity for the unelected civil servants scope for misuse and corruption is scary. Once in place subsequent governments will not have the control over the proposed department as they will have so much influence on everything, they will be the ones in power. Just look at all the federal departments in the states. They all started out as militia groups and have access to anything they want.
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Gary

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2006, 06:08:26 PM »
As someone involved in law enforcement I can, perhaps, offer a different perspective and I have mixed feelings and several thoughts on this –

1. Most if not all of us carry some sort of identification already (driving licence, credit cards etc) and we are required to produce them at various points in our lives e.g. opening bank accounts, claiming benefits, in court proceedings etc.

2. There are very few areas of your life that police, customs etc cannot look into. Some of these require a relatively high level of authorisation and are not as easy to come by as you might think but it’s certain that any data held on a card would already be accessible.

3. Like all public services, law enforcement agencies (including, I suspect, MI5) operate to strict budgets and to conduct speculative searches into the lives of ordinary members of the public without any supporting intelligence would be a massive waste of resources. The police in general are under a huge amount of pressure to deal with priority crimes like robbery and burglary and that is where local commanders are going to put their money (I know it might not seem like that to any of you who have received a speeding fine but that’s another story :wink: ).

4. I remember people were saying the same thing in the mid nineties when there was a proliferation of local authority CCTV cameras. The only civil liberties issues I’m aware of from that have been a few people whose gardens/ bedroom windows were being overlooked and most of these issues have been resolved with a minimum of fuss simply by approaching the relevant local authority.

5. Most of the people dealt with by police and where identity is an issue are foreign nationals who wouldn’t be carrying a UK identity card anyway.

6. If the government make it an offence not to carry one, masses of police and court time is going to be spent dealing with people, most of whom won’t have committed any substantive offence. Given what I've said above about robbery and burglary, this would put it quite far down on the police's priorities.

 :?

sambo

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2006, 06:19:32 PM »
^to add to some of that.

I'm not for or against the cards to be honest. But while i see that they may not be entirely necessary, and can understand why people feel strongly against them, i really don't agree with this whole attitude about ID cards taking away from our privacy or interfering with our civil liberties. Like Gary just said, a lot of information is already available to the government anyway, and for authorities to delve into everyone's private lives for no reason doesn't really seem like a realistic scenario to me, as (like Gary also said), it would be a waste of time/resources and just seems like it would also be a pointless exercise.

i don't really know what im trying to say, and obviously, i could be entirely wrong and ID cards could be the downfall of the country with the government trawling through our private information and discovering loads of things about us which could be seen as a disaster by many.

However, what i guess my point is, is that while i agree that the scheme isn't necessary and wouldn't provide any great benefits, i don't understand the extreme outlook about what a hugely negative effect the cards will have on us...

genocidal tendencies

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2006, 06:29:26 PM »
Quote from: jt
:D It`s neither racist or sexiest its just plain stupid. Who says everybody is stupid or unintelligent ? What makes you so intelligent that you think nobody else is ?

Democracy is about majority rule. Politicians will have to come up with policies & ideas that WE the public will have to agree to. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.

Its true to say that the politicians have completely failed the nation & that they arn`t coming up with any policies or ideas worth voting on, it`s one of the reasons people dont vote.

As for ID cards. Dont be a Dog & get led round by the nose !!
ID cards will not protect you from terrorism, crime or anything else for that matter. Its a statement of fact that the 9/11 bombers all had ID cards. Its the main reason they were allowed on the planes !!!

The July bombers here in London would have also had ID cards as they were all British subjects.ID cards are about Governments wanting to control your lives, NOT about anti terror or crime.

It doesn`t work out that only people that have something to hide will not want ID cards. Its about the fact that what i do, were i go, what i read, what i listen to, what i think & what i say are my own Decisions  & choices & have nothing to do with this or any Government. Whether your smart enough or not my life is my life & i`m entitled to my privacy whether you like it or not or whether you agree to it or not !
 :D  8)


Did I say anywhere that everybody is stupid or unintelligent? No. On the other hand, intelligence has, in a sense, everything to do with it, since it is so mind bogglingly obvious that certain minorities are more intelligent than the majority. Politics, just like everything else that's imortant, should be handled by people who know and understand what they're talking about. Most of us (myself included) simply don't when it comes to politics. Although some of us to occasionally have the sense not to complain (or even campaign) about what we don't understand. And no, flicking through private eye every few months does not constitute understanding politics. It is a sad fact that democracies have endorsed slavery, capital punishment and all kinds of attrocities at times when there were individuals who thought differently. Majorities are not always correct, in fact it might be reasonable to say that they rarely are. The prime minister's job should be a lottery prize, that'd be a better way of doing it.

And I don't care about terrorists. I care about pubs and I care about keeping 16/17 year olds out of them. That's why I didn't say anything about terrorists, and why I did say something about pubs, and about keeping 16/17 year olds out of them. It'd be nice if this didn't get heated, but maybe it'd help if you actually read my posts rather than reiterating irrelevant (and probably uninformed) nuggets of trivia.

Also, perhaps you'd forgotten but there is still a dusty old piece of legislation in effect which says that what you do, where you go and what you say actually have quite a lot to do with the government. It's called the Law. Perhaps you've heard of it? I don't get people who complain about the government telling them what to do at all. It seems immensely hypocritical, almost like "The government can tell everyone else what they're not allowed to do to me and I expect that to be enforced rigidly, however I am free to do as I like." Why is it that 'majority rule' seems so preoccupied with the individual?

The public are not stupid? Explain glasgow, then. Surely you must accept that the average member of, say, the prometheus society is better informed and more intelligent than the average member of the public?

^ ^ quick note about point 6, if fines are really going to be thousands of pounds, surely the net cost can't be all that much?

38thBeatle

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2006, 07:51:05 PM »
Genocidal, I really do not follow your reasoning-sorry. The "law" is not a singular piece of legislation. You obviously do not like the concept of democracy and I can accept that a pure democracy has yet to be devised but even our flawed system is, at least in my view, preferable to unelected dicatorships-just my view you understand. Getting back to the thread, I think the thing I object to with the proposals that exist for identity cards is that the information stored will be in one place and I simply do not believe that the capability exists  to restrict what is on it to those who have a legitimate reason to access it.
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sambo

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2006, 08:05:24 PM »
Quote from: 38thBeatle
I simply do not believe that the capability exists  to restrict what is on it to those who have a legitimate reason to access it.


but isnt that the same for any information on any computer system anywhere?

and what is so horrific about some civil servant finding out the information stored?

i'm yet to see any specific examples of what exact pieces of information it is that people are worried about...

can anyone actually give me a specific example of something that is going to be on the cards that they would have a problem with the government knowing, that they don't already know?

38thBeatle

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2006, 09:00:39 PM »
Too much to list here Sambo. Very briefly, I think I  have good reason to suspect both the reasons and the methodology. The reasons given to justify the scheme just do not hold up and I do not trust the ability to safeguard what will be on the database. I have nothing to hide-I have never even had a parking ticket but I still have deep reservations.
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Johnny Mac

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2006, 10:24:23 PM »
I've had loads! ^  :lol:
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sambo

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2006, 10:28:46 PM »
well i agree wholeheartedly that the reasons for implementing the scheme do not hold up...

but the attitude that some people have taken is just confusing to me... sure, i can see why people feel strongly against it being introduced... but fail to understand how the information collected could really be detremental to people's rights or liberties in any way...

and until someone explains a particular piece of data that the government will have access to that is particularly private or sensitive, i'm gonna continue to think that way.

and i agree with you by the way about the actual protection of whatever data is stored.

38thBeatle

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2006, 10:49:05 PM »
Like I said, Sambo, there is a lot I would say in a lengthy post which I don't think is appropriate-for now you and I will have to just respect each others views and that we each have our reasons. I should perhaps explain that I do have an agenda that I am not prepared to go into right now but I do not just talk about this stuff, I do get involved.
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sambo

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NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2006, 10:58:11 PM »
i think your right mate, we shall call it a day. and by the way none of what i was saying was aimed specifically at you, nor was it meant to be having a go at anyone if it seemed that way.