A Mississippi Queen problem - P-90 question?

[Twinfan]

Right, I've just decided I'm not happy with the Mississippi Queen in my Gordon Smith SG.  I'm not sure if it's the guitar or what, but it just seems to have WAAAAY too much bass and sludge.  I've tried adjusting the polepieces and lowering the pickup but I can only go down as far as just under 2mm as it looks like I ordered a long legged pickup by mistake  :oops:

Can someone tell me what a P-90 should sound like with overdrive/distortion?  I'm getting thick, fat, fuzzy and ill defined.  I was expecting full, clear and edgy.

Is it me expecting the wrong thing, or is the pickup too close to the strings?

[Philly Q]

Tough one.  I'd say "thick, fat and fuzzy" was a more accurate description of the P-90 tone than "full, clear and edgy", if you're using a lot of distortion.  But that's thick, fat and fuzzy in a good way  :D .  There's still a hint of single-coil-ness, though, because the bass isn't boomy like humbuckers can be.

Think Leslie West or early Tony Iommi, to me those are classic distorted P-90 tones.

Single-coils are known for their brightness and clarity through a clean or just-breaking-up amp, but that seems to disappear with a lot of distortion. Weird analogy time: I think of distortion like a "sea" - powerful humbuckers seem to float over it but single-coils get swamped and soggy.

[Twinfan]

Thanks Phil - sounds like the MQ isn't to my taste then.  I expected it to be more like the P-100s I have in my Les Paul Junior Special, but they're stacked humbuckers.  Guess I'm not a P-90 guy after all?

[Philly Q]

Although I've been on this forum a few times defending stacked humbuckers, I think the P-100s are pretty poor approximations of P-90s.  They're much thinner and wirier sounding.  

AFAIK, no-one's made a really successful "noiseless" P-90.  The DiMarzio DLX-90 and Virtual P-90 are good, but they use side-by-side coils and they're still a bit humbuckerish.

I was playing my Pete Townshend SG the other day and it sounds great (even without BKPs) - all the settings on the PodXT which sound a bit cr@p with humbuckers (e.g the Matchless models) sound ace with P-90s.

[Sailor Charon]

If I can throw in my two-pennoth? I have to say that, run through my GH50L with vol at 2 or 3, gain at 3 and drive at 4, the MQs in my SG sound great. Nice 'n' growly for old school rock. Until I get an attenuator that's as loud as I'm allowed to go... :( [So I can't comment about higher gain/more volume]

[Twinfan]

Cheers again Phil.  If the P-100s are more wirey than P90s that could be why I'm not so keen.  Hmmm.  Maybe I need to try them through the Klipp when it's a bit cranked.  Might give me a better idea of the tone and see if I like it or not?

What height from the strings do you have your P90s Phil???

[Philly Q]

What height from the strings do you have your P90s Phil???

I've never fiddled with the pickup heights on the SG (I've only had it  3-1/2 years, Dave, haven't got round to it yet!  :lol:  :roll: ) but the bridge pickup is 2.5mm and the neck is 2mm, on both bass and treble sides.  

That's measuring from the strings to the middle of the polepieces, with the strings depressed at the 22nd fret.  The pickups are scratchplate-mounted, so they sit parallel with the body, not with the strings, and the poles are raised slightly above the tops of the pickups.

I forgot to say before, but when I was going on about the warm fuzzy distorted P-90 sound, I meant IMO it sounds great for lead.  In fact I don't think any pickup sounds better for certain types of fat, singing leads (Leslie West again!).  For chords/rhythm, P-90s work great with clean-to-crunch amp tones, but with full-on distortion I think they are too mushy, they don't sound right. Georgia Satellites yes, Bad Co yes, AC/DC just about, in-yer-face Metal NO.  

I doubt this is scientifically accurate, but it's just my perception:  Humbuckers cancel hum, but they also cancel - it seems to me - certain frequencies; some of the openness, the overtones you get with single-coils.  With tons of distortion, those single-coil overtones sort of bounce around and cloud the tone.  So that's why humbuckers are better with distortion.  Maybe. :?

[_tom_]

Tough one.  I'd say "thick, fat and fuzzy" was a more accurate description of the P-90 tone than "full, clear and edgy", if you're using a lot of distortion.  But that's thick, fat and fuzzy in a good way  :D .  There's still a hint of single-coil-ness, though, because the bass isn't boomy like humbuckers can be.

 

In my head, P90s were "full, clear and edgy". Never played any myself so I really had no idea. I was going to get an SG and put MQs in it at some point, but now I dont know if it'll have the sound I was hoping for.

Then again, how much distortion are we talking here? I wasnt gonna play metal or anything it, just good old rock n roll :P

[Twinfan]

Well I was using the MQ with an MI Audio Crunch Box set at 9pm gain.  We;re talking DC/EVH type gain levels.  I tried it back to back with my '61 SG and the humbuckers had a bit more clarity and bite.  The MQ was fatter, less distinct and mushier.  The MQ had 11 gauge strings fitted, the '61 had 10s.

If that's how they are, then I need to have a think what to do.  It's nice that it's different to my other guitars but if I don't really like it the guitar won't get played.  I think I need to try it out at gig levels where it might shine, but then it's not my gigging guitar!

Tough one.

[Philly Q]

Then again, how much distortion are we talking here? I wasnt gonna play metal or anything it, just good old rock n roll  :P

P-90s are fine for gold old rock'n'roll!  :D  Watch Woodstock and see both Pete Townshend and Carlos Santana playing SG Specials.  Awesome tones!

But no Necrophagist (whoever the f@ck they may be).  

[Philly Q]

If that's how they are, then I need to have a think what to do.  It's nice that it's different to my other guitars but if I don't really like it the guitar won't get played.  I think I need to try it out at gig levels where it might shine, but then it's not my gigging guitar!

I know you're not into squashy marshmallow neck pickup sounds like I am, but I'd be tempted to put the MQ in the neck of one of the SGs and the humbucker in the bridge of the GS.

I reckon bridge HB plus neck MQ would be a great combo - unless the MQ is louder than the Riff Raff or 57 Classic?

[sgmypod]

yeah think was expecting wrong thing in a p90...great for old style rock...and stoner rock....but not high gain.....and you bought another guitar?

Think I bought one for wrong sound why I sold mine

[dave_mc]

I've never fiddled with the pickup heights on the SG (I've only had it  3-1/2 years, Dave, haven't got round to it yet!  :lol:  :roll: ) but the bridge pickup is 2.5mm and the neck is 2mm, on both bass and treble sides.  

was that aimed at me? :lol:

I've even got round to adjusting (slightly) the pickups in my eggle, lol. Only had that for 5 months!

(apologies if it's not aimed at me  :oops: )

I probably can't add too much to the thread, only to echo what philly and the others have already said... i kind of equate p90 (based on the few I've tried) as kind of midway between a strat single coil tone and a humbucker... possibly slightly closer to a humbucker? but still with a little top-end sparkle...

kind of like the sound you'd imagine when gibson made a single coil, funnily enough...

 :lol:

[Philly Q]

was that aimed at me? :lol:

I've even got round to adjusting (slightly) the pickups in my eggle, lol. Only had that for 5 months!

(apologies if it's not aimed at me  :oops: )

No, it was aimed at Twinfan (well, in sarcasm terms it was aimed at myself - I've been known to buy then sell guitars without ever having changed the strings....).

But if the cap fits, Dave...  :lol:

[Twinfan]

Hmm.  Maybe I need to try it a lot cleaner then.  Townsend used Hiwatts which are really clean amps...