Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Sifu Ben on December 05, 2008, 12:01:40 PM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7766683.stm
When I first read this I thought they were taking the p*ss, but now I've listened to them back to back I think he may have something.....
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And so he should.... I picked this up when I first heard the track.
Shame they can't also be sued for the release of lifeless, dull, middle class cr@p.....
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Surely, though, Coldplay can sue Athlete, Snow Patrol, and so on, ad nauseum, to get the money to pay Satch?
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As much as i think Coldplay suck, it sounds like a coincidence more than a direct rip off of Joe's song.
At the end of the day, both are very simple chord progs and anyone could make them, it's not like they actually took a guitar riff.
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Ahh, but what's interesting here is not about chord progressions and riffs, it's about the similarity of the melodic guitar line of one and the vocal melody of the other.
I think proving exposure could be tricky though, unless there's a magazine article somewhere where they say that they really like Satriani (pretty unlikely)
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I can't see Satch getting anything. But I see the similarity.
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Ahh re read
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You tube comparisonhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofFw9DKu_I&feature=related (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofFw9DKu_I&feature=related)
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Awesome.
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You tube comparisonhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofFw9DKu_I&feature=related (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofFw9DKu_I&feature=related)
Haha, listening to that i think he has more of a case now. I still don't think he will get anything though. He is saying he is seeking damages and "any and all profits". That's not going to happen.
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Damage by plagarism. But still.. however it's worded I still think he has a chance.
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Stupid move by Satch IMO. Nothing good will come of it - it will be a PR disaster & he'll gain no money (in fact he'll probably make a net loss after lawyers fees etc)
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If it is a coincidence its a bit freaky or perhaps Joe wants a go on the singers missus, I would.
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I'm certain I read an interview with Satriani many years back where he talked about the plethora of TV commercials and soundtrack work that sounded curiously reminiscent of some of his famous tracks; his (paraphrased) attitude was that it was galling, but that there was no really sensible way of pursuing people who did it because it's unreasonable to expect the legal profession to pick up on the subtleties that are obvious to musicians. Nice to see he's becoming more litigious as the years roll on and the follicles evaporate. :)
I suspect he's on a hiding to nothing with this one. I do seem to remember Oasis getting hammered with some sort of plagiarism case back in the days when they were relevant, but I think there was a lyrical similarity to the source (Stevie Wonder?) as well. And of course the Rubinoos recently had a crack at Avril Lavigne*, but they were doomed from the start because "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend" is a carbon-copy of "Get Off My Cloud" anyway.
* bonus points if you could read that sentence without interjecting "I JUST BET THEY DID" in a seedy voice
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who knows if its a coincidence or not... but is it also coincidence that coldplay where nominated for 7 grammys yesterday!! No fuss about this when it came out and i cant believe that neither satch or any or his people were aware of it so why wait till now to bring it up???
At the end of the day its about PR and thats all.
it seems strange to me that you would copy a song so closely... if i was purposely copying something i would at least change enough to avoid legal problems. That makes me think it must be coincidence
btw, i am no coldplay fan, lets make that clear
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I'm sure it's accidental, I can't imagine Coldplay listening to Satch to be perfectly honest.
I'm a bit surprised he's trying to sue them. Then again, he is American.
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^ maybe he's annoyed that they've been nominated for umpteen grammies because they're "cool" (and with his song, no less)? i wonder how many grammies satch would have won if he'd released the exact same song (i mean with the words and everything)... :lol:
Shame they can't also be sued for the release of lifeless, dull, middle class cr@p.....
:lol:
I didn't actually know the satriani song (haven't bought a satch album since strange beautiful music), but now i've listened to it, they're more or less identical (except satch's is better). I always wondered why that was the only coldplay song i even vaguely liked... :twisted:
At the end of the day, both are very simple chord progs and anyone could make them, it's not like they actually took a guitar riff.
it's not just the intro riff, have you listened to the lead guitar "chorus" in satch's piece versus the sung chorus in coldplay's? it's the exact same melody as well! when i heard the chord progression, i though, "well, it's close, but arguably not enough to win a case", but then i heard the chorus melody and thought, "ok, so it's an exact copy"... :lol:
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it's not just the intro riff, have you listened to the lead guitar "chorus" in satch's piece versus the sung chorus in coldplay's? it's the exact same melody as well! when i heard the chord progression, i though, "well, it's close, but arguably not enough to win a case", but then i heard the chorus melody and thought, "ok, so it's an exact copy"... :lol:
The choruses overlap 100%
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yeah, exactly. :lol:
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^I'm not convinced.
Satch's chorus melody differs from Coldplay's vocals after the the initial 3-note phrase, which could EASILY be coincidental.
And the only other part which is vaguely similar is the chord progression, which is so generic it's probably used in THOUSANDS of tracks.
So discounting the chord progression, which would be ludicrous to sue over due to how commonplace it is, Satch would be suing on the basis of a C#, D, B pattern...
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You tube comparisonhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofFw9DKu_I&feature=related (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofFw9DKu_I&feature=related)
I like the two tracks doubled up... maybe they should put their differences aside and make one kick-ass band?
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I like the two tracks doubled up... maybe they should put their differences aside and make one kick-ass band?
:lol: I was thinking exactly the same! :lol:
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i dunno sambo, it's pretty similar (more than 3 notes in any case), almost the exact rhythm etc. Plus that's more or less the song's main hook (in both cases).
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Similarity in the Oasis/Wonder case is putting it mildly. He's now credited as co-writer on the track.
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I kinda see it but, satch's song sounds like a satch song and coldplays song sounds like a coldplay song... neither really remind me of the other.
Theres billions of possibilities in music, but theres only so many that work, and work together.
There are some right rip off's out there, but i don't think this is one of them. I can understand where satch is coming from, but if i were creating a melody to that backing track, i would have done something similar too.
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That comparison vid is HILARIOUS, the two together is $%&#ing incredible. Seems impossible, I reckon they could've ripped it off - I don't imagine them to be talented enough to write a whole song.
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When is Bono going to sue the singer, or the EDGE, for that matter?
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I kinda see it but, satch's song sounds like a satch song and coldplays song sounds like a coldplay song... neither really remind me of the other.
Theres billions of possibilities in music, but theres only so many that work, and work together.
There are some right rip off's out there, but i don't think this is one of them. I can understand where satch is coming from, but if i were creating a melody to that backing track, i would have done something similar too.
George Harrison tried that defence, he lost.
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Stupid move by Satch IMO. Nothing good will come of it - it will be a PR disaster & he'll gain no money (in fact he'll probably make a net loss after lawyers fees etc)
I'm not convinced it's that smart a move from a PR standpoint either. However, even though I'm no musicologist, the two tracks do sound quite similar. Like you say, Satch probably won't win (though I'd like him to - I'm a fan), but I'm just hoping his record company lawyers are acting for him so he doesn't get too screwed by lawyers' fees.
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I reckon it is a rip off. They sound almost identical. When trying to write something the possibilitys are almost endless, limited only by what works musically, the writers imagination and limitations. Where did Chris Martin start the writing process of this song? The rhythm? The Chords? The melody? The riff? The lyrics? Then what did he do? The choice of paths for where this would have turned out are huge. For it all to sound like Satch's song suggests this is plagiarism.
There's no reason to suggest he doesn't listen to satch. Most folk who like Coldplay would never had heard of Satch so its safe that his fans wouldn't discover it.
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Like you say, Satch probably won't win (though I'd like him to - I'm a fan), but I'm just hoping his record company lawyers are acting for him so he doesn't get too screwed by lawyers' fees.
The lawyers' fees go with the territory if he's determined to see this through. I shouldn't think he's that badly off anyway.
I wouldn't like him to win the case if they haven't actually plagiarised his piece. Mind you, they probably deserve it for being middle class :roll: . The filthy b@stards.
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Like you say, Satch probably won't win (though I'd like him to - I'm a fan), but I'm just hoping his record company lawyers are acting for him so he doesn't get too screwed by lawyers' fees.
The lawyers' fees go with the territory if he's determined to see this through. I shouldn't think he's that badly off anyway.
I wouldn't like him to win the case if they haven't actually plagiarised his piece. Mind you, they probably deserve it for being middle class :roll: . The filthy b@stards.
They should hang if thats the case! :lol:
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Hmm, I dare say it, but I really like Coldplay. I think they are a great band and have that "thing" so that they can play even the most minimalist song and it still sounds great. A bit like U2 where I see a live video and I am looking for samples or hidden synths but cannot hear any, and it sounds SO FAT, unbelieveable.
Re the plagiarism, well, they should be straight about it. If they've done it, they should admit and pay. Otherwise, I mean, what's the harm. Probably more people buy the old Satriani album now due to this, so he has had his benefit anyways.
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I reckon it is a rip off. They sound almost identical. When trying to write something the possibilitys are almost endless, limited only by what works musically, the writers imagination and limitations. Where did Chris Martin start the writing process of this song? The rhythm? The Chords? The melody? The riff? The lyrics? Then what did he do? The choice of paths for where this would have turned out are huge. For it all to sound like Satch's song suggests this is plagiarism.
There's no reason to suggest he doesn't listen to satch. Most folk who like Coldplay would never had heard of Satch so its safe that his fans wouldn't discover it.
What about them sounds almost identical though? It's three notes (C#, D, B) of a melody, and a ridiculously generic chord progression. That's it!
That comparison vid, by the way: the creator said he changed the tempo and keys as they didn't even fit originally.
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I don't know what the problem is - I mean Jimmy Page made his entire reputation out stealing other people's guitar parts :D
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Not a big Satch fan...
And I'm definitely not a Coldplay fan... but I'm sat next to one at the moment (Mrs Andyr says hi)...
We followed the youtube link and... we both think Coldplay'll get done, or they'll settle out of court...
I personally don't think any established artist nowadays would deliberately plagiarise - they'd be absolutely stupid to do so, it's just not worth the effort of recording and marketing the thing. But it is so easy to come up with something that you think's original, especially when it's catchy, and then someone turns round and goes "hey, it's just like so-and-so..." which is not what you intended at all, but you know you've heard "so-and-so", though you don't listen to it regularly, and on reflection you do seem to be subconsciously quoting it... so you end up binning the new song. I suspect that's what's happened here but no-one in the Coldplay camp spotted it.
I feel for both sides - when I read this yesterday, not able to listen to it (or know either tune), I thought "Satch is being daft", but having heard it, I know exactly how he must have felt when he heard it - he had to do something (maybe he did, and Coldplay's publishers/etc said "f*ck off" and that's why it's gone this far!!).
I also feel for Coldplay. Unless they nicked it deliberately (which I doubt) they'll be feeling a bit hard done by. But assuming they're creative people who are used to writing songs - they'll know it's possible to accidentally plagiarise.
All in all, I think both sides will seek an agreement of some sort. Unless either camp is feeling bloody-minded I reckon they'll probably cut a deal to get it done as quickly/quietly as possible.
:D
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I don't know what the problem is - I mean Jimmy Page made his entire reputation out stealing other people's guitar parts :D
I was thinking Led Zeppelin when I was writing mine :lol: (that's what I meant by "deliberately plagiarise")
I feel it's more the songs themselves in LZ's case though - nowadays Howlin Wolf etc are all credited on the albums, but they weren't in days gone by. Even in the late 70s early 80s when I first bought copies of them they were credited to Page/Plant. Having said that - the Wolf didn't write half of them either, he was quoting someone else!!
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The real Plaige shockers are the ripping off of Jansch on Blackmountainside and Davey Graham on White Summer.
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I reckon it is a rip off. They sound almost identical. When trying to write something the possibilitys are almost endless, limited only by what works musically, the writers imagination and limitations. Where did Chris Martin start the writing process of this song? The rhythm? The Chords? The melody? The riff? The lyrics? Then what did he do? The choice of paths for where this would have turned out are huge. For it all to sound like Satch's song suggests this is plagiarism.
There's no reason to suggest he doesn't listen to satch. Most folk who like Coldplay would never had heard of Satch so its safe that his fans wouldn't discover it.
+1
the fact the satch version sounds more like satch while the coldplay version sounds more like coldplay is no defence, if it's the same song, just changed slightly. if you copy someone's homework, you don't hand it in in their handwriting, after all.
i have no idea if coldplay did *intentionally* rip off satriani (not that that matters overly, if i unintentionally write the day of the jackal, i shouldn't get to keep the profits, though i probably shouldn't be sued for punitive damages), but it's not beyond the realms of possibility...
What about them sounds almost identical though? It's three notes (C#, D, B) of a melody, and a ridiculously generic chord progression. That's it!
the main hook (i.e. the whole point of the song) is identical. that's pretty big if you ask me. neither song would work (or at least be anywhere near as good) without that main hook.
if i stole the first four notes of beethoven's fifth symphony would you say the same? ;)I don't know what the problem is - I mean Jimmy Page made his entire reputation out stealing other people's guitar parts :D
haha, didn't he get sued too?
someone on another site said that jp didn't sue someone else when they nicked his stuff... i thought it was a bit ironic to mention jp... :D
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if it's the same song, just changed slightly.
This is where we differ Dave- imo it's nowhere near the same song.
the main hook (i.e. the whole point of the song) is identical.
The problem with that is that the "point of the song" is completely subjective. And even if everyone COULD agree on what the 'point' of a song was, I'm not sure how that makes a difference to a plagiarism case. And more importantly, why should an artist be able to effectively own a 3 note melody on the grounds that it's his or her hook?
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i disagree that it's only 3 notes, that's the problem. if you ask me, the entire melody of the chorus (of satch's song) is the same (or as near as makes no difference). and the entire coldplay song is more or less based on that chorus. :)
i'm aware that satch might not win, but imo he deserves to (whether or not he should get millions, i don't know, especially if they unconsciously copied it)...
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Apparently this was written and released before Satch released his song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57CgtX-BsI
sounds like he has some explaining to do :lol: If its true that they did release that song before him and he's blatantly copied it, then I have lost any respect I had for him - trying to sue someone for a song he himself ripped off :lol:
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disagree that it's only 3 notes, that's the problem. if you ask me, the entire melody of the chorus (of satch's song) is the same (or as near as makes no difference)
Well... agh! :lol:
Tom that just proves to me how incredibly generic that phrase is. There's probably another 20 songs on indie labels with the same melody.
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Apparently this was written and released before Satch released his song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57CgtX-BsI
Oh Joe, just give it up! :lol:
Tom that just proves to me how incredibly generic that phrase is. There's probably another 20 songs on indie labels with the same melody.
It is a really simple little melody, isn't it? I just figured it out in about 10 seconds, and you know what a fvcking shite player I am.
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Then again, he is American.
Ahem... aahem! Treading murky waters here. Let us not generalize.
Satch has a point! However, I think it is enough just to let CP know he knows.
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Then again, he is American.
Ahem... aahem! Treading murky waters here. Let us not generalize.
Wasn't meant as an insult or criticism, just an observation that you guys are historically much more inclined to litigiousness than we are over here.
For example:
Before he retired, my uncle was an anaesthetist in a hospital in Tacoma. One day a guy suddenly collapsed in a corridor. My uncle administered CPR, saved the guy's life.... but cracked one of his ribs in the process. The guy sued him.
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Apparently this was written and released before Satch released his song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57CgtX-BsI
sounds like he has some explaining to do :lol: If its true that they did release that song before him and he's blatantly copied it, then I have lost any respect I had for him - trying to sue someone for a song he himself ripped off :lol:
Now if the Coldplay track differed from the Satriani track by that degree there wouldn't be a problem, but Viva la Vida is WAY closer to If I could Fly than If I could fly is to that.
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The lead line sounds pretty damn similar to me, except it has too much trem arm wankage :P
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Now if the Coldplay track differed from the Satriani track by that degree there wouldn't be a problem, but Viva la Vida is WAY closer to If I could Fly than If I could fly is to that.
yeah, exactly. For example, that other creaky boards song which coldplay is also accused of ripping off sounds very similar to viva la vida too, but probably not close enough to sue- unlike the satch song (in my opinion, of course).
Apparently this was written and released before Satch released his song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57CgtX-BsI
sounds like he has some explaining to do :lol: If its true that they did release that song before him and he's blatantly copied it, then I have lost any respect I had for him - trying to sue someone for a song he himself ripped off :lol:
at the risk of sounding ridiculously biased, to me that doesn't sound as similar to satch's as coldplay's does. it has a whole extra line (maybe two), etc. you couldn't put one over the other, in other words. it sounds like a different chord progression too (could be wrong- just going by ear), and has a bunch of extra notes.
that almost sounds closer to this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8zmhY20ZZkY
:lol:
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^What?! :lol:
You said a minute ago it was the melody which was the whole point of the song, and THAT is the part which is exactly the same in the song tom linked.
I do see what you're saying- the Coldplay and Satriani tracks are more generally similar, but being generally similar isn't enough for a plagiarism case, imo.
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the fact of the matter is, Coldplay are wank and deserve to pay for their crimes against music :P
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the fact of the matter is, Coldplay are wank and deserve to pay for their crimes against music :P
Fine, but let them pay in such a way that everyone benefits, not just Joe Satriani.
If Satch has a strong enough case to get something out of Coldplay, I sincerely hope Los Enanitos Verdes sue his ass.
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I am on satch's side, but, at the same time,arent we all a little f#%ked up here...???unless we got into music to "make a million dollars"......arentwe all thieves????now, realize, If I came up withan identifiable melody like that, I would want some compensation...but at the same time , I would be VERY PLEASEd if someone..anyone...was LISTENING to stuff I made up...lets give satch some royalty love and move on???I dont really know....BUT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CPKPpgJAwo
-this tells a lovely story....
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Shouldnt the people who invented musical scales and chords also get some moolah? ;)
That other track's guitar hook sounds extremely close, probably even more close because it's on guitar too...
I think all the good hooks like that have been made already, and is why i haven't heard a song with a good one in a long long time.
Edit : Just spent some time noodling around in rifftracker with my new bass and slapping guitar on top of it, guess what it sounds like? you freaking betcha! ... do i get sued now?
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Apparently this was written and released before Satch released his song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57CgtX-BsI
sounds like he has some explaining to do :lol: If its true that they did release that song before him and he's blatantly copied it, then I have lost any respect I had for him - trying to sue someone for a song he himself ripped off :lol:
Hmmm the plot thickens. Plus they have 'Nan' on drums :lol:
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I am going to give CP the benefit of the doubt. I didn't know either song and when I listened I thought that the chord sequence and melody were indeed generic as Sambo has (I think) pointed out.To me, neither are that original.
I have had experience of writing a song that I was pleased with only to have someone say "that sound just like....".I go off and hear the song I have ripped off and yes indeed and yet to my knowledge I have never heard it in my life. I should imagine that the CP boys are, if innocent, horrified.I am not a fan of either.
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Talking of Coldplay, this one is also intersting. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cRv_yMg5nvw&feature=related (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cRv_yMg5nvw&feature=related) - same people involved in the recording and writing. However this one was interesting too http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tnzOR8jr7FU&feature=related (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tnzOR8jr7FU&feature=related). I also like Chris Martin's quote from rolling stone about Coldplay being incredibly good plagiarists!
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^What?! :lol:
You said a minute ago it was the melody which was the whole point of the song, and THAT is the part which is exactly the same in the song tom linked.
I do see what you're saying- the Coldplay and Satriani tracks are more generally similar, but being generally similar isn't enough for a plagiarism case, imo.
yeah, that's what i mean (the last sentence you wrote). just the coldplay and satch ones sound extremely similar (to me, anyway), while the satch and Los Enanitos Verdes one just sounds kind of similar.
my point being that the entire chorus of the satch song is very, very similar, if not identical, to coldplay's verse/chorus (you can put them over each other!), while the Los Enanitos Verdes one only has the first line of the chorus similar to the satch lick, but then it goes into this whole other descending theme, which is an old trick from classical music (or even, say, the lead bit from parisienne walkways/still got the blues).
i dunno. it's subjective, i guess, but to me the coldplay one is too close for comfort, while satch's isn't. :lol:
pretty much what the first comment (by kickmydog1234) is saying, in other words (though i'd agree being in a different key doesn't matter).
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I was talking to Ben (TO) about this the other night on MSN and he said something that I hadn't thought of (hopefully he won't mind my quoting him on here, so I'll try to be word perfect):
"My guess would be that Coldplay used an outside writer who'd copied Satch's riff, and that Coldplay themselves didn't have any idea it was from another song"
Now, I'm no expert (or fan come to think of it) of Coldplay, but this is an angle that I'd not thought of.
To anyone that may know; do they write all/most of their own songs or do they work with outsider writers?
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No, I think they're a proper band, they write almost all their own material, including that song.
So they get to take the credit... or the blame.
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Well, both songs are lame and derivative anyway. The "ENANITOS VERDES - FRANCES LIMON" video ripped off a chord progression which has been around for centuries anyway.
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This story has made it into The Sun! :lol: I read it in the cafe at lunchtime. God knows where it all goes now. Perhaps Joe should move on.
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Before he retired, my uncle was an anaesthetist in a hospital in Tacoma. One day a guy suddenly collapsed in a corridor. My uncle administered CPR, saved the guy's life.... but cracked one of his ribs in the process. The guy sued him.
That's not Americans. That's fellow man.
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No, I think they're a proper band, they write almost all their own material, including that song.
So they get to take the credit... or the blame.
that's what i'd have thought. i'm not much a fan, but i think they do write their own stuff. could be wrong, though (i usually am :oops: ). :lol:
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No, I think they're a proper band, they write almost all their own material, including that song.
So they get to take the credit... or the blame.
that's what i'd have thought. i'm not much a fan, but i think they do write their own stuff. could be wrong, though (i usually am :oops: ). :lol:
They suck at song writing then, I hear their "music" a lot when I go out of the house and I've forgotten all of them, even viva la vida.