Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Roobubba on January 12, 2009, 04:57:25 PM
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http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/
Go go go!
Roo
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May I ask as to how the proposed limiter systems would work and how they would be policed?
I would propose a law against whinging for no good reason about legitimate noise levels as a solution to the problem as opposed to punishing artists.
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Restricted to what level?
97 to 100db would be an idea I'd favour - thats permanent hearing loss at 3 and 2 hours a day, respectively.A suitable amount of time for a gig. I like my hearing.
Masking means its doesnt really make a difference how loud it seems after a few minutes anyway, save covering crowd noises.
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May I ask as to how the proposed limiter systems would work and how they would be policed?
I would propose a law against whinging for no good reason about legitimate noise levels as a solution to the problem as opposed to punishing artists.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I signed it. There was a time, in the early days of these devices, that we used to take extra long mains cables and would run out gear from a socket that is not governed and play happily whilst the unit flashed away. I don't know if you can still do it though-I guess it depends on the installation. We recently had a gig booked where the venue had a governor and the venue was switched to one where there was none. I played a gig once where the power was being cut before we started playing-due to the cumulative volume of voices. The gig was a disaster and the punters very unhappy-not with us I'd hasten to add.
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I signed it. There was a time, in the early days of these devices, that we used to take extra long mains cables and would run out gear from a socket that is not governed and play happily whilst the unit flashed away. I don't know if you can still do it though-I guess it depends on the installation. We recently had a gig booked where the venue had a governor and the venue was switched to one where there was none. I played a gig once where the power was being cut before we started playing-due to the cumulative volume of voices. The gig was a disaster and the punters very unhappy-not with us I'd hasten to add.
I havent the slightest doubt that they could be circumvented in various ways. There would probably be laws against it though.
I signed it though. I go to a gig and i expect loud. Its something you buy into if you go to one. Its a known thing. If I want to protect my hearing (and I do) I have a couple of sets of these
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41iuBqqy5UL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
They work very well!
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how would the dB level be measured too? - a snare drum at one meter and a snare drum at ten metres are quite different in volume.
I personally think its mental - if it's too loud, you're too old.
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how would the dB level be measured too? - a snare drum at one meter and a snare drum at ten metres are quite different in volume.
I personally think its mental - if it's too loud, you're too old.
Very good point. The levels throughout the venue are going to vary with distance mostly, also standing modes, reflections, number of people in there. Its not a matter of "Its THIS loud" and have done with it. Likely it would be at 1m from PA speakers. 1m distance is pretty standardised measurement point. In that case in large venues 100dB @1m would be really boringly quiet at greater distances (dependant on geometry of the room)
Its when it still seems quiet and you cant hear detail in things that youre too old ;) For the time being, I value my hearing, for some reason its still quite good despite being regularly loud and in loud places (I can just hear 20khz at 26 years old) and I want it to stay that way!
To reiterate though, I've given it some thought and dont like this idea - like I said, I expect loud music in various places if I'm worried, I can wear plugs. No dice. This is just a law for whining curtain twitching gits that didnt realise living next to a venue would be loud
That said, there are a lot of places that I would dearly love to see turned down, or off, or burn and replace all their CDs!
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It's not a bad idea in theory....in practise it's ridiculous.
Sound pressure levels are notoriously difficult to measure accurately and repeatably. It's not like speed, which is clearcut. Not only, that human perception of sound varies from person to person.
Some sounds can have high SPL's without being either harmful or dangerous, and vice versa.
Anyone who's ever gigged with some muppet stood in front of the band with a sound level meter, or with sound level limiters will know how hard it is to never exceed any given limit.
The other flaw with the idea is that the levels picked tend to be Occupational maximum exposure limits. However, there's a huge difference between being in a factory with continuous background machinery noise at 100dB for 8 hours a day, and music with transients (like cymbals) at 100dB for a couple of hours.
It's a typical example of moronic beurocracy not being able to think outside of simple rules, and also of the extent to which the nanny state now sees fit to interfere with our lives. Laws like this should be opposed as a matter of principle, otherwise pretty soon you won't be able to take a shite without wearing gloves and a respirator.
Music's too loud? Leave, stand elsewhere or wear plugs. Bar staff? Wear earplugs if you choose to, it's a free country.......or was...
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As has already been mentioned above: Elacin ER-20s (or similar) are the way to protect your hearing, and still feel that good old thump in your chest when the band hit a big note. I, too, value my hearing, and I never do practices/gigs without earplugs.
Of course, as with smoking (the ban of which I was a proponent, I might add), the key is to protect workers - ie bar staff, security, etc etc. The establishment already has a duty of care for them under current legislation (and how expensive is it really to buy them all good quality custom ear protection, when compared with the potential cost of litigation for not doing so!!).
It's for this reason - that current legislation is sufficient to protect workers' health, if implemented properly - that the Government should NOT be wasting their time and our money on a venture which we pretty much all also agree will put the final nail in the coffin of live music in the UK.
Roo
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Too bad I can't sign it because I'm not from the UK.
The AC/DC concert in Rotterdam will also be limited because some believe the structure of the arena can't take the volume and all those people jumping up and down. Rediculous!
If this goes on, nobody will ever be able to fully enjoy Motorhead or Dick Dale. These guys need to be ear bleeding loud.
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I think you can go to gigs that are too loud, I remember going to Night and Day Cafe to watch a band and couldn't hear properly for 2 days. The deaf sound engineer just piled on the treble to compensate for years of hearing damage and we all suffered - there's nothing good about that. It's nothing to do with age either, I was about 20 at the time. I usually find it's when the bands are shitee as well, 2 Epi Les Pauls set with maximum treble and preamp gain trying to be Oasis playing bar chords constantly, no dynamics etc. It's funny how a decent band at the same volume doesn't hurt your ears the same. Dynamics, tone, gear all plays a part.
That said, sound meters are annoying when the cut the power, that's just wrong. Pehrhaps just a light warning the engineer would be better? Thn he could bring the sound down a bit. It would have to measure an average though, it's not so much the spikes but the constant average level in the higher frequencies that's the problem for many an ear.
Anybody who just thinks loud is better just needs to learn about dynamics :D
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I think you can go to gigs that are too loud, I remember going to Night and Day Cafe to watch a band and couldn't hear properly for 2 days. The deaf sound engineer just piled on the treble to compensate for years of hearing damage and we all suffered - there's nothing good about that. It's nothing to do with age either, I was about 20 at the time. I usually find it's when the bands are shiteee as well, 2 Epi Les Pauls set with maximum treble and preamp gain trying to be Oasis playing bar chords constantly, no dynamics etc. It's funny how a decent band at the same volume doesn't hurt your ears the same. Dynamics, tone, gear all plays a part.
That said, sound meters are annoying when the cut the power, that's just wrong. Pehrhaps just a light warning the engineer would be better? Thn he could bring the sound down a bit. It would have to measure an average though, it's not so much the spikes but the constant average level in the higher frequencies that's the problem for many an ear.
Anybody who just thinks loud is better just needs to learn about dynamics :D
I don't think anyone is saying that 'too loud' is clever - but what's really stupid is going to a gig without thinking about ear protection. You don't need to put the ear-plugs in, but if you need them, you have them! Either way, if this is as much of an issue as the Government is trying to say, then they should invest time and effort into better ways to remedy it, rather than cutting power - that's just cretinous!!
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Tom Jackson, I agree 100%.
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I remember doing a gig years ago where there was a limiter that cut the power. We blew it immediately in the soundcheck (thought we'd taken the power out - did that several times as well!).
When the landlord explained what the problem was, we started seeing how to get the volume down. We found that my voice without the PA tripped the power!! When they suggested that I sing quieter, I said "that's it, we're going home..." (I was serious, started packing up) "I suggest you book an accoustic duo next time..."
"We did, they had the same problem... I suppose we could do the same thing we did for them..."
"Which was?"
The landlord went round the back of the contraption and disabled it!!
"It cuts out the jukebox on a Friday night as well, we always have to turn it off on fridays..."
Complete tw@t :lol:
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I signed it. There was a time, in the early days of these devices, that we used to take extra long mains cables and would run out gear from a socket that is not governed and play happily whilst the unit flashed away. I don't know if you can still do it though-I guess it depends on the installation. We recently had a gig booked where the venue had a governor and the venue was switched to one where there was none. I played a gig once where the power was being cut before we started playing-due to the cumulative volume of voices. The gig was a disaster and the punters very unhappy-not with us I'd hasten to add.
i've played gigs with limiters too, if they cut the sound completely then it sucks - completely destroys the show. fully agree with your comments.
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If they are cutting power that would be particularly harmful to the electronics concerned as well.
Not worth the expense for the venue.
I'd be very tempted to hit them with legal action if they buggered my equipment by jogging the mains feed on purpose, which is what these seem to be doing.
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It's not a bad idea in theory....in practise it's ridiculous.
Sound pressure levels are notoriously difficult to measure accurately and repeatably. It's not like speed, which is clearcut. Not only, that human perception of sound varies from person to person.
Some sounds can have high SPL's without being either harmful or dangerous, and vice versa.
Anyone who's ever gigged with some muppet stood in front of the band with a sound level meter, or with sound level limiters will know how hard it is to never exceed any given limit.
The other flaw with the idea is that the levels picked tend to be Occupational maximum exposure limits. However, there's a huge difference between being in a factory with continuous background machinery noise at 100dB for 8 hours a day, and music with transients (like cymbals) at 100dB for a couple of hours.
It's a typical example of moronic beurocracy not being able to think outside of simple rules, and also of the extent to which the nanny state now sees fit to interfere with our lives. Laws like this should be opposed as a matter of principle, otherwise pretty soon you won't be able to take a shitee without wearing gloves and a respirator.
Music's too loud? Leave, stand elsewhere or wear plugs. Bar staff? Wear earplugs if you choose to, it's a free country.......or was...
Martin, you have hit the nail squarely on the head with your comments.
.......although I will be seriously considering your suggestions of a respirator and gloves.
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Most local authorities (especially in London) have required them as part of their licensing policy for 3 years now - So petition is 3 years too late as noise limiters are ubiquitous and the power to require them is in the hands of local government, not central government.
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It's not a bad idea in theory....in practise it's ridiculous.
Sound pressure levels are notoriously difficult to measure accurately and repeatably. It's not like speed, which is clearcut. Not only, that human perception of sound varies from person to person.
Some sounds can have high SPL's without being either harmful or dangerous, and vice versa.
Anyone who's ever gigged with some muppet stood in front of the band with a sound level meter, or with sound level limiters will know how hard it is to never exceed any given limit.
The other flaw with the idea is that the levels picked tend to be Occupational maximum exposure limits. However, there's a huge difference between being in a factory with continuous background machinery noise at 100dB for 8 hours a day, and music with transients (like cymbals) at 100dB for a couple of hours.
It's a typical example of moronic beurocracy not being able to think outside of simple rules, and also of the extent to which the nanny state now sees fit to interfere with our lives. Laws like this should be opposed as a matter of principle, otherwise pretty soon you won't be able to take a shitee without wearing gloves and a respirator.
Music's too loud? Leave, stand elsewhere or wear plugs. Bar staff? Wear earplugs if you choose to, it's a free country.......or was...
Damn fine post
I've come full circle on this one. Time to kick around my head, I suppose. Its silly, and nanny state-ish. I'll take care of my own ears, same as my lungs, liver, arteries and heart (or not as the case may be, and by may be, I mean is). They're mine, I know how to look after them, and I can choose not to if I wish.
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Thankyou Alan! :)
Note that I'm not in favour of overly loud gigs.
I've been to many gigs where the bands been too loud, both in pubs (guitar has 4x12 and a Mesa, bass has 8x10, all drums miced up etc) and large venues (Airbourne at the Academy, where the sound engineer should have been shot).
And in fact, as has been said, larger venues should have the technology and the already have the compulsion under existing legislation to keep levels fairly cool, and still deliver great sound. Journey at Manchester Apollo was a good example; perfect with no earplugs in, loud but crystal clear.
No, it's pub and small club gigs that will suffer :(
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Ever noticed how loud brass instruments are?
I never heard old farts and govt. idiots complain about that.
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Ever noticed how loud brass instruments are?
I never heard old farts and govt. idiots complain about that.
Orchestras are pretty bloody loud on the whole, and thats never gonna be touched!
This whole thing reeks of cantankerous whining curtain twitching gits complaining about the "Bloody noise", so categorised purely because they dont like the music, and not understanding that they live near a venue/club/pub and its going to be a noisy place as a result.
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Ever noticed how loud brass instruments are?
I never heard old farts and govt. idiots complain about that.
That's because their hearing is really damaged already! Orchestral musicians, specifically the brass section, get really bad hearing due to having a loud instrument right by their ear. The systems that are installed in clubs, are set at a level, and if that is exceeded for a certain amount of time (ie 3mins), then it will cut out. The dynamics of classical music are such that a sustained high spl level is not there.
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Many of you will have heard of the Brian Setzer Orchestra.
Brian needs two Bassman amps and a monitor just to get himself heard on stage.
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Why don't venues just hand out disposable earplugs and have a few signs on the wall saying:-
Warning, Loud music may damage your hearing, Protect your ears
ear protection abailable at the door
Trouble is there will always be sound monitoring / cutting because idiots decide to buy flats next to venues and then complain about the noise. Then the meddling council communists spoil the fun :(
Has anybody seen It's All Gone Pete Tong, BTW?
That's an interesting film about a DJ that goes deaf.
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Why don't venues just hand out disposable earplugs and have a few signs on the wall saying:-
Warning, Loud music may damage your hearing, Protect your ears
ear protection abailable at the door
Trouble is there will always be sound monitoring / cutting because idiots decide to buy flats next to venues and then complain about the noise. Then the meddling council communists spoil the fun :(
Has anybody seen It's All Gone Pete Tong, BTW?
That's an interesting film about a DJ that goes deaf.
Have you heard about the island of Lundy? they have two signs on the whole island, and no H&S bollocks.
One of my mates went to, errrm, somewhere in Europe following Pearl Jam, and this country had the free earplug thing. Belgium, Luxembourg, Sweden, Switzerland are the places that it could have been
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I found this similarish petition:
After the petition against sound metering at venues, here’s another. This time the government are requesting personal data from musicians via a form (696) that has to be completed by the venue. This data will include names, private addresses and telephone contact details of all musicians. Apparently, this is being used to monitor bands that cause problems, but I guess may also be used for tax reasons!
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Scr@pthe696/
Andy
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The correct link for that petition is:
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Scr@pthe696/sign
I've also signed it, thanks for the heads up! :)
Roo
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I've been wearing ear plugs to concerts for the past few years. Works great.
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Gigs need to be load, otherwise I can't hear it when I'm being made to stand outside and smoke.
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http://www.nme.com/news/various-artists/42188
Teehee.
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I'd sign it but Im not in the UK, does that matter?
Just looked and saw I need address details etc so guess not.
But Noise Control is the worst thing ever.
I live in a commercial area in the city. Our house in the only place within about 100 metres and we have a big garage so practice in there. its got the budget soundproofing job (mattresses everywhere) but we still get a noise control complaint every few weeks. There used to be a dB level that was classed as excessive, but they got rid of that rule and now its just basically if there is a complaint its deemed excessive and you have to shut up or risk having the cops take all the gear in the house. Even though the noise level down the road by the closest apartments is probably about as loud as a car driving past.
Too make it even more ironic, the city Im from, Wellington NZ, trys to class itself as a cultural centre encouraging the arts and music scenes etc, but anything not mainstream they dont give a rats about. They have torn down most places in the city that were available practice spaces and built cheaply made apartments with no insulation for noise proofing, so then the people that move in to the city complain about any noise around them even more so. [/friday bored at work Rant]
But yeah sounds like a stink situation. Good luck with the petition. Otherwise invest in a generator in case of power cuts, and pillows and other things to try and cover up wherever the spl reading is taken.