Petition against the introduction of sound control devices to live venues (UK)

[Roobubba]

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/

Go go go!

Roo

[maverickf1jockey]

May I ask as to how the proposed limiter systems would work and how they would be policed?

I would propose a law against whinging for no good reason about legitimate noise levels as a solution to the problem as opposed to punishing artists.

[MDV]

Restricted to what level?

97 to 100db would be an idea I'd favour - thats permanent hearing loss at 3 and 2 hours a day, respectively.A suitable amount of time for a gig. I like my hearing.

Masking means its doesnt really make a difference how loud it seems after a few minutes anyway, save covering crowd noises.

[hendrixfan]

May I ask as to how the proposed limiter systems would work and how they would be policed?

I would propose a law against whinging for no good reason about legitimate noise levels as a solution to the problem as opposed to punishing artists.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[38thBeatle]

I signed it. There was a time, in the early days of these devices, that we used to take extra long mains cables and would run out gear from a socket that is not governed and play happily whilst the unit flashed away. I don't know if you can still do it though-I guess it depends on the installation. We recently had a gig booked where the venue had a governor and the venue was switched to one where there was none. I played a gig once where the power was being cut before we started playing-due to the cumulative volume of voices. The gig was a disaster and the punters very unhappy-not with us I'd hasten to add.

[MDV]

I signed it. There was a time, in the early days of these devices, that we used to take extra long mains cables and would run out gear from a socket that is not governed and play happily whilst the unit flashed away. I don't know if you can still do it though-I guess it depends on the installation. We recently had a gig booked where the venue had a governor and the venue was switched to one where there was none. I played a gig once where the power was being cut before we started playing-due to the cumulative volume of voices. The gig was a disaster and the punters very unhappy-not with us I'd hasten to add.

I havent the slightest doubt that they could be circumvented in various ways. There would probably be laws against it though.

I signed it though. I go to a gig and i expect loud. Its something you buy into if you go to one. Its a known thing. If I want to protect my hearing (and I do) I have a couple of sets of these



They work very well!

[HTH AMPS]

how would the dB level be measured too? - a snare drum at one meter and a snare drum at ten metres are quite different in volume.

I personally think its mental - if it's too loud, you're too old.

[MDV]

how would the dB level be measured too? - a snare drum at one meter and a snare drum at ten metres are quite different in volume.

I personally think its mental - if it's too loud, you're too old.

Very good point. The levels throughout the venue are going to vary with distance mostly, also standing modes, reflections, number of people in there. Its not a matter of "Its THIS loud" and have done with it. Likely it would be at 1m from PA speakers. 1m distance is pretty standardised measurement point. In that case in large venues 100dB @1m would be really boringly quiet at greater distances (dependant on geometry of the room)

Its when it still seems quiet and you cant hear detail in things that youre too old ;) For the time being, I value my hearing, for some reason its still quite good despite being regularly loud and in loud places (I can just hear 20khz at 26 years old) and I want it to stay that way!

To reiterate though, I've given it some thought and dont like this idea - like I said, I expect loud music in various places if I'm worried, I can wear plugs. No dice. This is just a law for whining curtain twitching gits that didnt realise living next to a venue would be loud

That said, there are a lot of places that I would dearly love to see turned down, or off, or burn and replace all their CDs!

[martinw]

It's not a bad idea in theory....in practise it's ridiculous.

Sound pressure levels are notoriously difficult to measure accurately and repeatably. It's not like speed, which is clearcut. Not only, that human perception of sound varies from person to person.

Some sounds can have high SPL's without being either harmful or dangerous, and vice versa.

Anyone who's ever gigged with some muppet stood in front of the band with a sound level meter, or with sound level limiters will know how hard it is to never exceed any given limit.

The other flaw with the idea is that the levels picked tend to be Occupational maximum exposure limits. However, there's a huge difference between being in a factory with continuous background machinery noise at 100dB for 8 hours a day, and music with transients (like cymbals) at 100dB for a couple of hours.

It's a typical example of moronic beurocracy not being able to think outside of  simple rules, and also of the extent to which the nanny state now sees fit to interfere with our lives. Laws like this should be opposed as a matter of principle, otherwise pretty soon you won't be able to take a shite without wearing gloves and a respirator.
Music's too loud? Leave, stand elsewhere or wear plugs. Bar staff? Wear earplugs if you choose to, it's a free country.......or was...

[Roobubba]

As has already been mentioned above: Elacin ER-20s (or similar) are the way to protect your hearing, and still feel that good old thump in your chest when the band hit a big note. I, too, value my hearing, and I never do practices/gigs without earplugs.

Of course, as with smoking (the ban of which I was a proponent, I might add), the key is to protect workers - ie bar staff, security, etc etc. The establishment already has a duty of care for them under current legislation (and how expensive is it really to buy them all good quality custom ear protection, when compared with the potential cost of litigation for not doing so!!).

It's for this reason - that current legislation is sufficient to protect workers' health, if implemented properly - that the Government should NOT be wasting their time and our money on a venture which we pretty much all also agree will put the final nail in the coffin of live music in the UK.

Roo

[Ratrod]

Too bad I can't sign it because I'm not from the UK.

The AC/DC concert in Rotterdam will also be limited because some believe the structure of the arena can't take the volume and all those people jumping up and down. Rediculous!

If this goes on, nobody will ever be able to fully enjoy Motorhead or Dick Dale. These guys need to be ear bleeding loud.

[tomjackson]

I think you can go to gigs that are too loud, I remember going to Night and Day Cafe to watch a band and couldn't hear properly for 2 days.  The deaf sound engineer just piled on the treble to compensate for years of hearing damage and we all suffered - there's nothing good about that.  It's nothing to do with age either, I was about 20 at the time.  I usually find it's when the bands are shitee as well, 2 Epi Les Pauls set with maximum treble and preamp gain trying to be Oasis playing bar chords constantly, no dynamics etc.   It's funny how a decent band at the same volume doesn't hurt your ears the same.   Dynamics, tone, gear all plays a part.

That said, sound meters are annoying when the cut the power, that's just wrong.  Pehrhaps just a light warning the engineer would be better?  Thn he could bring the sound down a bit.  It would have to measure an average though, it's not so much the spikes but the constant average level in the higher frequencies that's the problem for many an ear.

Anybody who just thinks loud is better just needs to learn about dynamics :D

[Roobubba]

I think you can go to gigs that are too loud, I remember going to Night and Day Cafe to watch a band and couldn't hear properly for 2 days.  The deaf sound engineer just piled on the treble to compensate for years of hearing damage and we all suffered - there's nothing good about that.  It's nothing to do with age either, I was about 20 at the time.  I usually find it's when the bands are shiteee as well, 2 Epi Les Pauls set with maximum treble and preamp gain trying to be Oasis playing bar chords constantly, no dynamics etc.   It's funny how a decent band at the same volume doesn't hurt your ears the same.   Dynamics, tone, gear all plays a part.

That said, sound meters are annoying when the cut the power, that's just wrong.  Pehrhaps just a light warning the engineer would be better?  Thn he could bring the sound down a bit.  It would have to measure an average though, it's not so much the spikes but the constant average level in the higher frequencies that's the problem for many an ear.

Anybody who just thinks loud is better just needs to learn about dynamics :D

I don't think anyone is saying that 'too loud' is clever - but what's really stupid is going to a gig without thinking about ear protection. You don't need to put the ear-plugs in, but if you need them, you have them!  Either way, if this is as much of an issue as the Government is trying to say, then they should invest time and effort into better ways to remedy it, rather than cutting power - that's just cretinous!!

[Ratrod]

Tom Jackson, I agree 100%.

[AndyR]

I remember doing a gig years ago where there was a limiter that cut the power. We blew it immediately in the soundcheck (thought we'd taken the power out - did that several times as well!).

When the landlord explained what the problem was, we started seeing how to get the volume down. We found that my voice without the PA tripped the power!! When they suggested that I sing quieter, I said "that's it, we're going home..." (I was serious, started packing up) "I suggest you book an accoustic duo next time..."

"We did, they had the same problem... I suppose we could do the same thing we did for them..."

"Which was?"

The landlord went round the back of the contraption and disabled it!!

"It cuts out the jukebox on a Friday night as well, we always have to turn it off on fridays..."

Complete tw@t :lol: