Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: MF_Kitten on February 10, 2009, 10:28:16 PM
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i´m planning on purchasing new bridge pickups for two of my guitars:
one is a schecter 7 string with a custom 28.6" scale baritone neck, and has a basswood body. i´m going to tune it as low as f#, F and E. i´ve been told that the Cold Sweat is the perfect bridge pickup for this, by someone who knows their BKP :D
now, for the guitar in wuestion, i was thiking painkiller until the cold sweat was recommended. with the super-low tunings in mind, which one would be the most articulate and clear-sounding? (i like a high mid focus, and the current pickup in there now is an Evo 7)
now, the other guitar is 28" scale 6 string, and has an alder body. i might tune it as low as the 7 string, but in an open tuning (like f#-B-f#-B-f#-B). i was thinking a ceramic Warpig would complement the alder very well, since it has a low-mid focus, yet is also tight and clear. would other pickups do a better job in this guitar for my purposes?
thanks! :)
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tim's recomendation for baritones is lower powered pickups
i but a blackdog on my 26.5-28" fanned fret baritone - great choice. i was asking about Ceramic warpig, normal warpig or painkillers and am glad i was talked out of it
anyway, we have covered the reasoning behind this a fair bit recently so a search for baritone should give you some answers
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=search2
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apparently, a search for "baritone" comes up with my first post there, and your reply :P
i´m not a fan of low-powered pickups myself. i´m going to play metal with it, and i usually boost the highs and high mids pre-distortion to get some superb note definition.
think Bulb´s tone (from the band Periphery), and also Meshuggah´s tone. both have really super-clear tones. if i´m not mistaken, Bulb has three guitars equipped with bare knuckle pickups so far. one with a ceramic warpig, one with a painkiller, and one with a pair of cold sweats. Meshuggah, on the other hand, use another certain hand-made pickup (that is ridiculously hot :P).
the Evo 7 (i´m guessing you know what brand that is :P) i have in the 7 string at the moment has the right idea going, and sounds awesome, but i´m ready to take the sound further :)
the alder guitar, btw, has the industry standard active pickup in the bridge (ceramic), and i´m sick of it! :P
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this is my baritone thread with some discussion of the pickup choice and even a clip or two
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14815.0
this is another one discussing scale length choice, tuning and pickup choice
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15807.0
here is tim's response to my querys about putting a high output pickup in a barry
Generally the lower the output the better the clarity and definition on a baritone. When I was recording for Iced Earth we used baritones alot and the best results where from VHII, Black Dog and Mississippi Queen-the hottest we used was a PK but it sounded super saturated and alot of sizzle on the highs as they're driven by the thicker strings.Personally I wouldn't use a WP/ CWP but go for something lower output and let the amp handle the gain-black Dog was my fav
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The thing with high output pickups and baritones is they end up sounding like a bass guitar plugged into a distortion pedal-all boom and fizz-primarily because the amount of signal the strings generate is way more than on a standard 6. ... from my experience hot humbuckers don't sound clear or precise under gain with a baritone.
Ceramic is OK but again will sound fizzy once those big gauge strings start to push the signal-have you ever tried ceramic bass p/ups?Nasty!!
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heyyy, i´ve seen that one guitar before! :P
thanks :)
from all the explanations i´ve seen about the subject there, it seems people want to make the baritone sound more like a regular guitar, and give it a natural even sound. the problem is that this is quite the opposite from what i´m looking for :P
what tim says about the ceramic hot pickups in baritones is what i´m looking for (not overly so, but that´s the general idea)
i like it when you can really hear the high end through the distortion, with a kinda quacky pick attack sound.
my concern is that it´ll be TOO much like that :P
i think i´m pretty set on which pickups i´ll like, the question is just which ones will complement the woods better, and retain the most clarity in low tunings.
sorry that i seem not to be listening to your advice, because i am. it´s just that the typical suggestions people give for pickups are usually not what i want, because i´m looking to do something that most people would be disgusted by :P
here´s a clip that has some guitar all by itself in the intro that kinda shows off what i´m after:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6406367
that super-duper-clarity with the really biting high mids that cut right through the distortion to give a very focused and "quacky" tone that really shows off the timbre of the strings... the "industry standard active humbucker" in the bridge really doesen´t deliver that. it has a really boring mid-range with a high-end bump that does the chugga-chugga stuff (just to give some perspective on what i´m after :P)
man, it´s hard to put words to what i´m after, hah! i would say "djent", but i feel bad about using the word, as i rarely actually make the "djent" sound :P
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sorry that i seem not to be listening to your advice, because i am.
i dont mind you not listening, i work in a school - i am used to it :D
i just wanted to make sure you had the info i had on the subject
it´s just that the typical suggestions people give for pickups are usually not what i want, because i´m looking to do something that most people would be disgusted by :P
this does make it rather difficult you know!! ;)
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yeah, that´s why i´m trying to explain what i´m after, instead of "what works with that?" :)
i´ll probably ask Tim when the time to buy comes, and see what he says. your suggestions, along with a couple other people´s suggestions, and then Tim´s suggestions, should amount to a good decision i´d say :P
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So as long as you don't mind a muddier and less defined bass end, then the higher output pickups should be just right ;)
Roo
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So as long as you don't mind a muddier and less defined bass end, then the higher output pickups should be just right ;)
Roo
As a dealer who has sold/installed probably around 200 7-string Bare Knuckles and many others for down-tuned 6s, I have to disagree with the popular notion around here that high-output BKPs don't excel for low tunings. While yes theoretically cleaner pickups will have a clearer sound on the low-end, there are a lot of important factors that aren't being considered here:
1) If you use a high quality amp with good speakers that is is voiced well for baritone (assuming we're talking about in a metal context not Duane Eddy stuff here) then this is a non-issue. In my personal guitars and countless of my customers' ones, pickups from the Cold Sweat, Painkiller, all the way up to the Warpig all have achieved amazing results. It's not going to be muddy or undefined if you have decent technique and good gear. I primarily play 7-strings tuned (low-to-high): ADGCFAD and with various models (Painkiller, Warpig, Cold Sweat, Miracle Man, Nailbomb).
2) Some amps, especially tube amps, respond better to high-output pickups than others. Sometimes that extra juice that is slamming the front end of the amp actually tightens things up and gives it more focus. There's a difference between distortion and output, you know? It's the same reason why 99.9% of signed metal bands use a Tube Screamer variant in front of the amp as a clean boost to get a tighter, crisper sound. With some amps, low output pickups can end up producing a very dry, unpleasant sound with high distortion settings. It is my experience with many high-end tube amps they produce better results when you can hit the front of the amp with a hot signal and then turn the 'gain' knob down, versus going in with low output and then turning up the preamp gain on the amp. It varies amp to amp, pickup to pickup, speaker to speaker, style to style.
3) It really depends amp to amp, guitar to guitar, etc. Certainly if you put a Warpig in an all mahogany guitar with a rosewood board, and then run it into a fat/loose amp you're probably not going to get great results from your low B string. However, if you ran a Cold Sweat or Painkiller which stays incredible tight and focused in mahogany guitars under heavy distortion with low tunings then you're in good shape. Especially if you're rig is setup right as I mentioned before.
4) Another factor often overlooked is strings. Another myth (IMO) is the idea that the thicker the string the better the tone. If anything, I find with downtuning the lighter the string the better the tone. When you start messing with super thick 'low B' strings, the tone becomes rounder, more mellow, muddier, with decreased attack and tightness. As string vibration decreases, a less aggressive tone is achieved. Part of that 'growl' is the string vibration. You'd be shocked at the amount of times a simple change in string gauge (or brand... companies like Elixir NanoWeb make some of the best sounding low B strings on the market) can completely save the day for a guitar's tone.
The bottom line is, I reject this rubbish about high-output BKPs not being ideal for baritones. I see and hear proof otherwise every single day with the army of baritone and 7-string guitar players I deal with. I think a much more important factor than output in gauging what works best for the low B string is the voicing of the pickup. Pickups that focus more on upper mids seem to keep the low-end tighter and more focused, regardless of output. But again, that doesn't mean thick low-mid heavy pickups like the Warpig or Miracle Man don't absolutely perform beautifully with baritones. If the rig is setup right (good amp, speakers, strings, tubes, biasing, technique, etc) all will be well.
I have a Cold Sweat in my 8-string guitar and that sounds absolutely incredible. Tight, focused, punchy low end with great attack, power, and harmonics. I could not be happier with my decision. I'm sure the Black Dog Tim recommended would have sounded good too but I knew the CS is always a winner in basswood guitars and I figured my amp (VHT Pittbull UL) would respond well with it, and low and behold the results were absolutely perfect.
I'm not trying to say Tim doesn't give superb advice, he is practically a God to me, no one respects him more than me, but sometimes people on forums get way too caught up in absolutes and don't really know what they're talking about, like some of the posts I've been reading in this thread. There are nearly infinite variables which come into play when determining tone. When Tim gives his opinion, he is speaking generally and can't account for everything. So it's good to factor that in but also do your own research.
MF_Kitten: You know me from ss.org you should have come to me with this, you know I'd set you right ;)
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but sometimes people on forums get way too caught up in absolutes and don't really know what they're talking about,
this comes across a little insulting, i am going to assume thats not the intention.
I am passing on advice i got from tim and i have found it to be very good advice which is why i am happy to pass it on... I would suggest to anyone in this position that a lower powered pickup with a pedal is just as worth trying as a high powered pickup - the search for tone is different for everyone which is why i never speak in absolutes like you seem to be suggesting is a problem of this forum. Its something i never do with guitars and one of the reasons i rarely participate in the 'what pickup' threads
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sometimes people on forums get way too caught up in absolutes and don't really know what they're talking about, like some of the posts I've been reading in this thread.
:roll:
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Hey Vic,
I've just got back from holiday here, and I've not seen you about before, so welcome to the forum.
Much of what you say I agree with completely, thanks for the comments. Just a couple of points you've skimmed over. Firstly, the scale length undoubtedly has an impact on output level (and probably on perceived 'distortion', although I say probably, as this part of the statement is just conjecture). I agree that slamming the front end of the amp harder is often (almost always?) a great way of tightening up the sound of a tube amp; indeed, I'll be doing this with my Black Dog-loaded 26.5-28" multiscale baritone with 14-70 strings in A-E-A-D-F#-B tuning, as and when the Bloody Murder I ordered last May arrives.
However, you've basically got a bit carried away in your post, and essentially accused both WezV and me of not knowing what we're talking about. While I can't and won't speak for Wez, he's a lot more experienced than me with this sort of thing. Given that I do, contrary to your absolute statement, know from first-hand experience what I'm talking about from my own experimentation, a reasonable extrapolation puts the luthier of my most recent guitar in an equal or greater position of authority to provide his advice than me, too.
For my part, I'll admit that I could have phrased 'muddier and less defined bass' in perhaps more flattering terms, especially in view of the fact that none of the BKPs I know of (either first-hand or second-hand from my time on these forums/other BKP user friends) are in any really tangible way muddy or poorly defined. The way I put it could be misconstrued as absolute (at a stretch), but that was not my intention, and indeed I don't believe in absolutes at all when it comes to guitar tone.
My reasoning for suggesting lower output pickups is that the option to boost with a pedal in front of the amp leaves more dynamic range available for cleans by cutting the boost and cutting back on the volume. It's still very easy to achieve the desired slamming of the front end of the amp, even with lower output pickups, especially if you have a long scale length coupled with reasonably large strings. This isn't me as a person on a forum getting caught up in absolutes, this is me as a person with said setup saying what works well for me, and advising that this works in my case. Sure, your mileage may vary - of course it can and will from guitar to guitar, from player to player and so on!
The vast majority of your post was accurate, helpful and friendly. Perhaps if you respectfully disagreed rather than launching a (albeit muted) personal attack, your posts might not be quite so abrasive...
Roo
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My reasoning for suggesting lower output pickups is that the option to boost with a pedal in front of the amp leaves more dynamic range available for cleans
seems strange hearing you talk about cleans ;)
also, re-reading the thread i can see my second post may come over as bolschy. the reason for posting the links was because i tried posting a search results page but it just came up as the search option - so i posted directly to the threads i was referring to instead
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Vic Deakins, if you´re Zimbloth, and i assume you are, i DID ask you, and you gave great advice, so i got what i needed from your side :)
i´m trying to get lots of angles on the choises, so i can get arguments for both sides.
and guys, no-one is being mean, we all just have different goals tone-wise :P
now, what i´m wondering is if the ceramic warpig would work for my purpose (looow tunings etc) in the alder, or if i should go for a slightly less low-mids-y pickup?
i hear people saying the cold sweats are perfect for the low-tuned guitars in basswood etc (that´s you, zimbloth :P), but the painkiller is tempting me. how different are the two, and what is the winning argument on the side of the cold sweat?
i think "Vic Deakins" has the right idea as far as my way of thinking goes. consider that meshugah plays 8 string guitars tuned to F, and play with super-ultra-hot pickups :P
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Vic Deakins, if you´re Zimbloth, and i assume you are, i DID ask you, and you gave great advice, so i got what i needed from your side :)
i´m trying to get lots of angles on the choises, so i can get arguments for both sides.
and guys, no-one is being mean, we all just have different goals tone-wise :P
now, what i´m wondering is if the ceramic warpig would work for my purpose (looow tunings etc) in the alder, or if i should go for a slightly less low-mids-y pickup?
i hear people saying the cold sweats are perfect for the low-tuned guitars in basswood etc (that´s you, zimbloth :P), but the painkiller is tempting me. how different are the two, and what is the winning argument on the side of the cold sweat?
i think "Vic Deakins" has the right idea as far as my way of thinking goes. consider that meshugah plays 8 string guitars tuned to F, and play with super-ultra-hot pickups :P
I'm not 100% sure about this, but don't Meshuggah play clean and add the distortion afterwards? Can't remember where I got that idea, so it could be urban legend...
Roo
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Vic Deakins, if you´re Zimbloth, and i assume you are, i DID ask you, and you gave great advice, so i got what i needed from your side :)
i´m trying to get lots of angles on the choises, so i can get arguments for both sides.
and guys, no-one is being mean, we all just have different goals tone-wise :P
now, what i´m wondering is if the ceramic warpig would work for my purpose (looow tunings etc) in the alder, or if i should go for a slightly less low-mids-y pickup?
i hear people saying the cold sweats are perfect for the low-tuned guitars in basswood etc (that´s you, zimbloth :P), but the painkiller is tempting me. how different are the two, and what is the winning argument on the side of the cold sweat?
i think "Vic Deakins" has the right idea as far as my way of thinking goes. consider that meshugah plays 8 string guitars tuned to F, and play with super-ultra-hot pickups :P
I'm not 100% sure about this, but don't Meshuggah play clean and add the distortion afterwards? Can't remember where I got that idea, so it could be urban legend...
Roo
I don't know about that, but they don't play with a huge amount of gain anyway.
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they record with PODs, so this is not really relevant
it's like reamping without amps :lol:
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they record directly into their line 6 Vetta II heads, but they recently changed to Axe-FX :)
but yeah, they get super-duper-clear and articulate tone on the lower strings, even when the guitars play alone (the bass adds alot of clarity). the reason they can do that with super-hot pickups is because it has a slightly scooped low-mid range, as well as a little dip in the higher bass register (100 hz, the boomy zone! :P), and then there´s lots of high mids and treble. after using an EQ pedal with lots of amps and guitars (some with ridiculously crummy pickups), i can honestly say that this is the recipe for a tight tone in ultra-low tunings.
let´s see if some more people will have suggestions :)
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Hey Vic,
I've just got back from holiday here, and I've not seen you about before, so welcome to the forum.
Much of what you say I agree with completely, thanks for the comments. Just a couple of points you've skimmed over. Firstly, the scale length undoubtedly has an impact on output level (and probably on perceived 'distortion', although I say probably, as this part of the statement is just conjecture). I agree that slamming the front end of the amp harder is often (almost always?) a great way of tightening up the sound of a tube amp; indeed, I'll be doing this with my Black Dog-loaded 26.5-28" multiscale baritone with 14-70 strings in A-E-A-D-F#-B tuning, as and when the Bloody Murder I ordered last May arrives.
However, you've basically got a bit carried away in your post, and essentially accused both WezV and me of not knowing what we're talking about. While I can't and won't speak for Wez, he's a lot more experienced than me with this sort of thing. Given that I do, contrary to your absolute statement, know from first-hand experience what I'm talking about from my own experimentation, a reasonable extrapolation puts the luthier of my most recent guitar in an equal or greater position of authority to provide his advice than me, too.
For my part, I'll admit that I could have phrased 'muddier and less defined bass' in perhaps more flattering terms, especially in view of the fact that none of the BKPs I know of (either first-hand or second-hand from my time on these forums/other BKP user friends) are in any really tangible way muddy or poorly defined. The way I put it could be misconstrued as absolute (at a stretch), but that was not my intention, and indeed I don't believe in absolutes at all when it comes to guitar tone.
My reasoning for suggesting lower output pickups is that the option to boost with a pedal in front of the amp leaves more dynamic range available for cleans by cutting the boost and cutting back on the volume. It's still very easy to achieve the desired slamming of the front end of the amp, even with lower output pickups, especially if you have a long scale length coupled with reasonably large strings. This isn't me as a person on a forum getting caught up in absolutes, this is me as a person with said setup saying what works well for me, and advising that this works in my case. Sure, your mileage may vary - of course it can and will from guitar to guitar, from player to player and so on!
The vast majority of your post was accurate, helpful and friendly. Perhaps if you respectfully disagreed rather than launching a (albeit muted) personal attack, your posts might not be quite so abrasive...
Roo
Hey Roo,
My long post was not meant to be anything personal and I'm sorry if you or anyone interpreted it that way. I'm glad you understand the majority of where I was coming from however. I just had observed over the months the same (in my view) short-sighted posts regarding 7-strings and baritones and it got on my nerves since I knew better. I wasn't singling anyone out, I was just trying to say that the idea that you can't get clear, tight, musical response out of the low B (or A) with the high output BKPs is not true. It varies amp to amp, style to style, cabinet to cabinet, etc.
I know as well as any that low output pickups can yield great results w/ low tunings, as someone who has been tuning down to B (or lower) for 10 years I've experienced that first hand. However, I've also been through a wide array of amps, and with some the low B is enhanced with high output pickups while low-outputters can be detrimental in fact (too dry, peaky for the heavy stuff).
Again, my only point was, let's settle down with the absolutes. Every time someone asks a question about 7-string or baritone, instead of just cutting and paste Tim's stock recommendation, let's keep our minds open. All my guitars have Bare Knuckles, 6 7 and 8-strings, most of them have the high-output BKPs in them and sound amazing. This is because Tim's designs are so perfect that you can get the aggression and saturation while still having the dynamics, definition and organicness of a mid-gain pickup. And also because my VHT rig is voiced well for it. Certainly someone else's rig may respond to low/mid-output pickups instead, thats the point though, it all depends.
PS: Yes I don't post here much but I lurk often. I get 2207207429724 BKP questions/advice solicitations/order inquiries a day on other forums as it is, but I've been meaning to post here more too :)
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vic, i think you are misinterpreting my posts
I just had observed over the months the same (in my view) short-sighted posts regarding 7-strings and baritones and it got on my nerves since I knew better.
i think what you have observed is an alternative viewpoint, rather than short sightedness or mis-information. I dont think anyone has ever said that you cant get "clear, tight, musical response out of the low B (or A) with the high output BKPs"
i have aimed to pass on great advice i have received from tim in the hope it serves somebody else as well as it has for me. I dont think that has ever been done with absolutes as you seem to be suggesting - but it is advice i will continue to pass on, as well as continuing my experimentation with scale lengths, tuning and different pickups whenever i get the chance.
Again, my only point was, let's settle down with the absolutes. Every time someone asks a question about 7-string or baritone, instead of just cutting and paste Tim's stock recommendation, let's keep our minds open.
indeed, keeping your mind open is a good thing. I made a suggestion and i copied tim's response and some links to other threads to back it up. You seem to view this negatively but what i was doing was trying to back up a recommendation with some kind of evidence (for what its worth) as i know its a recommendation that doesnt always sit straight with peoples expectations right away. pointing to threads where it has been discussed was meant to be helpfull too
at the end of the day it does not bother me if someone takes my advice or not, it was never presented as an absolute as you keep suggesting but an opinion in a thread where somebody asked for opinions.
its good to have the alternative opinions and experience on this issue, and i must say you have my interest in high output pickups for a barry renewed
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Hi Vic,
Indeed, it's a privileged position we find ourselves in: with such a good range of amazing quality pickups!
I think we're all agreed that absolutes are a waste of time in this business (well, speaking about BKPs at least), so I think we can lay that one to rest...
Roo
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In Vic's defense, some of you did keep making recommendations for low output pickups after MF_Kitten clearly expressed he wasn't interested in that type of tone. That's what made it seem like, to me at least, you were disregarding his opinion and that of others who had good results with high output BKPs in low tunings.
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yes, and i did point out earlier how i can see my second post as being taken the wrong way
also, re-reading the thread i can see my second post may come over as bolschy. the reason for posting the links was because i tried posting a search results page but it just came up as the search option - so i posted directly to the threads i was referring to instead
i dont agree that i ever disregarded anyones opinion, although this is the internet and 50% of whats written gets taken the wrong way ;)
anyway, i am aware i am being a grouchy bar-steward this week (for many reasons) so apologies if my opinions or the way i have phrased them has caused any issues
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In Vic's defense, some of you did keep making recommendations for low output pickups after MF_Kitten clearly expressed he wasn't interested in that type of tone. That's what made it seem like, to me at least, you were disregarding his opinion and that of others who had good results with high output BKPs in low tunings.
I was simply trying to re-phrase the point that my setup is aimed at very high gain, tight, low, articulate and punchy metal/hardcore brutality, which I am able to achieve with a low output pickup (I'm not getting sucked into absolutes again!!). An alternative view to the OP's but one which I felt, and still feel, is relevant and worthy of consideration!
Roo
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EMGs work quite well with baritones, they are kind of low output and have a little preamplifier. That would work as an argument in favor of the Blackdogs I guess.