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Author Topic: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?  (Read 8041 times)

MF_Kitten

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i´m planning on purchasing new bridge pickups for two of my guitars:

one is a schecter 7 string with a custom 28.6" scale baritone neck, and has a basswood body. i´m going to tune it as low as f#, F and E. i´ve been told that the Cold Sweat is the perfect bridge pickup for this, by someone who knows their BKP :D

now, for the guitar in wuestion, i was thiking painkiller until the cold sweat was recommended. with the super-low tunings in mind, which one would be the most articulate and clear-sounding? (i like a high mid focus, and the current pickup in there now is an Evo 7)

now, the other guitar is 28" scale 6 string, and has an alder body. i might tune it as low as the 7 string, but in an open tuning (like f#-B-f#-B-f#-B). i was thinking a ceramic Warpig would complement the alder very well, since it has a low-mid focus, yet is also tight and clear. would other pickups do a better job in this guitar for my purposes?

thanks! :)

WezV

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2009, 10:36:57 PM »
tim's recomendation for baritones is lower powered pickups

i but a blackdog on my 26.5-28" fanned fret baritone - great choice.  i was asking about Ceramic warpig, normal warpig or painkillers and am glad i was talked out of it

anyway, we have covered the reasoning behind this a fair bit recently so a search for baritone should give you some answers

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=search2

MF_Kitten

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2009, 11:10:30 PM »
apparently, a search for "baritone" comes up with my first post there, and your reply :P

i´m not a fan of low-powered pickups myself. i´m going to play metal with it, and i usually boost the highs and high mids pre-distortion to get some superb note definition.

think Bulb´s tone (from the band Periphery), and also Meshuggah´s tone. both have really super-clear tones. if i´m not mistaken, Bulb has three guitars equipped with bare knuckle pickups so far. one with a ceramic warpig, one with a painkiller, and one with a pair of cold sweats. Meshuggah, on the other hand, use another certain hand-made pickup (that is ridiculously hot :P).

the Evo 7 (i´m guessing you know what brand that is :P) i have in the 7 string at the moment has the right idea going, and sounds awesome, but i´m ready to take the sound further :)

the alder guitar, btw, has the industry standard active pickup in the bridge (ceramic), and i´m sick of it! :P

WezV

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 07:20:27 AM »
this is my baritone thread with some discussion of the pickup choice and even a clip or two

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14815.0

this is another one discussing scale length choice, tuning and pickup choice
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15807.0

here is tim's response to my querys about putting a high output pickup in a barry

Quote
Generally the lower the output the better the clarity and definition on     a baritone. When I was recording for Iced Earth we used baritones alot     and the best results where from VHII, Black Dog and Mississippi     Queen-the hottest we used was a PK but it sounded super saturated and     alot of sizzle on the highs as they're driven by the thicker     strings.Personally I wouldn't use a WP/ CWP but go for something lower     output and let the amp handle the gain-black Dog was my fav

....

The thing with high output pickups and baritones is they end up sounding like a bass guitar plugged into a distortion pedal-all boom and fizz-primarily because the amount of signal the strings generate is way more than on a standard 6.  ...  from my experience hot humbuckers don't sound clear or precise under gain with a baritone.
Ceramic is OK but again will sound fizzy once those big gauge strings start to push the signal-have you ever tried ceramic bass p/ups?Nasty!!


MF_Kitten

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 02:58:30 PM »
heyyy, i´ve seen that one guitar before! :P

thanks :)

from all the explanations i´ve seen about the subject there, it seems people want to make the baritone sound more like a regular guitar, and give it a natural even sound. the problem is that this is quite the opposite from what i´m looking for :P

what tim says about the ceramic hot pickups in baritones is what i´m looking for (not overly so, but that´s the general idea)

i like it when you can really hear the high end through the distortion, with a kinda quacky pick attack sound.

my concern is that it´ll be TOO much like that :P

i think i´m pretty set on which pickups i´ll like, the question is just which ones will complement the woods better, and retain the most clarity in low tunings.

sorry that i seem not to be listening to your advice, because i am. it´s just that the typical suggestions people give for pickups are usually not what i want, because i´m looking to do something that most people would be disgusted by :P

here´s a clip that has some guitar all by itself in the intro that kinda shows off what i´m after:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6406367

that super-duper-clarity with the really biting high mids that cut right through the distortion to give a very focused and "quacky" tone that really shows off the timbre of the strings... the "industry standard active humbucker" in the bridge really doesen´t deliver that. it has a really boring mid-range with a high-end bump that does the chugga-chugga stuff (just to give some perspective on what i´m after :P)

man, it´s hard to put words to what i´m after, hah! i would say "djent", but i feel bad about using the word, as i rarely actually make the "djent" sound :P

WezV

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 08:52:00 PM »
sorry that i seem not to be listening to your advice, because i am.

i dont mind you not listening, i work in a school - i am used to it  :D

i just wanted to make sure you had the info i had on the subject

Quote
it´s just that the typical suggestions people give for pickups are usually not what i want, because i´m looking to do something that most people would be disgusted by :P

this does make it rather difficult you know!! ;)



MF_Kitten

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2009, 11:00:05 AM »
yeah, that´s why i´m trying to explain what i´m after, instead of "what works with that?" :)

i´ll probably ask Tim when the time to buy comes, and see what he says. your suggestions, along with a couple other people´s suggestions, and then Tim´s suggestions, should amount to a good decision i´d say :P

Roobubba

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2009, 12:00:30 PM »
So as long as you don't mind a muddier and less defined bass end, then the higher output pickups should be just right ;)

Roo

Axe Palace

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2009, 01:09:27 PM »
So as long as you don't mind a muddier and less defined bass end, then the higher output pickups should be just right ;)

Roo

As a dealer who has sold/installed probably around 200 7-string Bare Knuckles and many others for down-tuned 6s, I have to disagree with the popular notion around here that high-output BKPs don't excel for low tunings. While yes theoretically cleaner pickups will have a clearer sound on the low-end, there are a lot of important factors that aren't being considered here:

1) If you use a high quality amp with good speakers that is is voiced well for baritone (assuming we're talking about in a metal context not Duane Eddy stuff here) then this is a non-issue.  In my personal guitars and countless of my customers' ones, pickups from the Cold Sweat, Painkiller, all the way up to the Warpig all have achieved amazing results. It's not going to be muddy or undefined if you have decent technique and good gear. I primarily play 7-strings tuned (low-to-high): ADGCFAD and with various models (Painkiller, Warpig, Cold Sweat, Miracle Man, Nailbomb).

2) Some amps, especially tube amps, respond better to high-output pickups than others. Sometimes that extra juice that is slamming the front end of the amp actually tightens things up and gives it more focus. There's a difference between distortion and output, you know? It's the same reason why 99.9% of signed metal bands use a Tube Screamer variant in front of the amp as a clean boost to get a tighter, crisper sound. With some amps, low output pickups can end up producing a very dry, unpleasant sound with high distortion settings. It is my experience with many high-end tube amps they produce better results when you can hit the front of the amp with a hot signal and then turn the 'gain' knob down, versus going in with low output and then turning up the preamp gain on the amp. It varies amp to amp, pickup to pickup, speaker to speaker, style to style.

3) It really depends amp to amp, guitar to guitar, etc. Certainly if you put a Warpig in an all mahogany guitar with a rosewood board, and then run it into a fat/loose amp you're probably not going to get great results from your low B string. However, if you ran a Cold Sweat or Painkiller which stays incredible tight and focused in mahogany guitars under heavy distortion with low tunings then you're in good shape. Especially if you're rig is setup right as I mentioned before.

4) Another factor often overlooked is strings. Another myth (IMO) is the idea that the thicker the string the better the tone. If anything, I find with downtuning the lighter the string the better the tone. When you start messing with super thick 'low B' strings, the tone becomes rounder, more mellow, muddier, with decreased attack and tightness. As string vibration decreases, a less aggressive tone is achieved. Part of that 'growl' is the string vibration.  You'd be shocked at the amount of times a simple change in string gauge (or brand... companies like Elixir NanoWeb make some of the best sounding low B strings on the market) can completely save the day for a guitar's tone.

The bottom line is, I reject this rubbish about high-output BKPs not being ideal for baritones. I see and hear proof otherwise every single day with the army of baritone and 7-string guitar players I deal with. I think a much more important factor than output in gauging what works best for the low B string is the voicing of the pickup. Pickups that focus more on upper mids seem to keep the low-end tighter and more focused, regardless of output. But again, that doesn't mean thick low-mid heavy pickups like the Warpig or Miracle Man don't absolutely perform beautifully with baritones. If the rig is setup right (good amp, speakers, strings, tubes, biasing, technique, etc) all will be well.

I have a Cold Sweat in my 8-string guitar and that sounds absolutely incredible. Tight, focused, punchy low end with great attack, power, and harmonics. I could not be happier with my decision. I'm sure the Black Dog Tim recommended would have sounded good too but I knew the CS is always a winner in basswood guitars and I figured my amp (VHT Pittbull UL) would respond well with it, and low and behold the results were absolutely perfect.

I'm not trying to say Tim doesn't give superb advice, he is practically a God to me, no one respects him more than me, but sometimes people on forums get way too caught up in absolutes and don't really know what they're talking about, like some of the posts I've been reading in this thread. There are nearly infinite variables which come into play when determining tone. When Tim gives his opinion, he is speaking generally and can't account for everything. So it's good to factor that in but also do your own research.

MF_Kitten: You know me from ss.org you should have come to me with this, you know I'd set you right ;)
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WezV

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2009, 03:56:47 PM »
Quote
but sometimes people on forums get way too caught up in absolutes and don't really know what they're talking about,

this comes across a little insulting, i am going to assume thats not the intention. 

I am passing on advice i got from tim and i have found it to be very good advice which is why i am happy to pass it on... I would suggest to anyone in this position that a lower powered pickup with a pedal is just as worth trying as a high powered pickup - the search for tone is different for everyone which is why i never speak in absolutes like you seem to be suggesting is a problem of this forum.  Its something i never do with guitars and one of the reasons i rarely participate in the 'what pickup' threads




FernandoDuarte

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2009, 04:58:14 PM »
sometimes people on forums get way too caught up in absolutes and don't really know what they're talking about, like some of the posts I've been reading in this thread.

:roll:

Roobubba

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2009, 05:36:32 PM »
Hey Vic,

I've just got back from holiday here, and I've not seen you about before, so welcome to the forum.

Much of what you say I agree with completely, thanks for the comments. Just a couple of points you've skimmed over. Firstly, the scale length undoubtedly has an impact on output level (and probably on perceived 'distortion', although I say probably, as this part of the statement is just conjecture). I agree that slamming the front end of the amp harder is often (almost always?) a great way of tightening up the sound of a tube amp; indeed, I'll be doing this with my Black Dog-loaded 26.5-28" multiscale baritone with 14-70 strings in A-E-A-D-F#-B tuning, as and when the Bloody Murder I ordered last May arrives.

However, you've basically got a bit carried away in your post, and essentially accused both WezV and me of not knowing what we're talking about. While I can't and won't speak for Wez, he's a lot more experienced than me with this sort of thing. Given that I do, contrary to your absolute statement, know from first-hand experience what I'm talking about from my own experimentation, a reasonable extrapolation puts the luthier of my most recent guitar in an equal or greater position of authority to provide his advice than me, too.

For my part, I'll admit that I could have phrased 'muddier and less defined bass' in perhaps more flattering terms, especially in view of the fact that none of the BKPs I know of (either first-hand or second-hand from my time on these forums/other BKP user friends) are in any really tangible way muddy or poorly defined. The way I put it could be misconstrued as absolute (at a stretch), but that was not my intention, and indeed I don't believe in absolutes at all when it comes to guitar tone.
My reasoning for suggesting lower output pickups is that the option to boost with a pedal in front of the amp leaves more dynamic range available for cleans by cutting the boost and cutting back on the volume. It's still very easy to achieve the desired slamming of the front end of the amp, even with lower output pickups, especially if you have a long scale length coupled with reasonably large strings. This isn't me as a person on a forum getting caught up in absolutes, this is me as a person with said setup saying what works well for me, and advising that this works in my case. Sure, your mileage may vary - of course it can and will from guitar to guitar, from player to player and so on!

The vast majority of your post was accurate, helpful and friendly. Perhaps if you respectfully disagreed rather than launching a (albeit muted) personal attack, your posts might not be quite so abrasive...


Roo

WezV

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2009, 06:07:00 PM »
Quote
My reasoning for suggesting lower output pickups is that the option to boost with a pedal in front of the amp leaves more dynamic range available for cleans

seems strange hearing you talk about cleans ;)


also, re-reading the thread i can see my second post may come over as bolschy.  the reason for posting the links was because i tried posting a search results page but it just came up as the search option - so i posted directly to the threads i was referring to instead

MF_Kitten

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2009, 09:55:33 PM »
Vic Deakins, if you´re Zimbloth, and i assume you are, i DID ask you, and you gave great advice, so i got what i needed from your side :)

i´m trying to get lots of angles on the choises, so i can get arguments for both sides.

and guys, no-one is being mean, we all just have different goals tone-wise :P

now, what i´m wondering is if the ceramic warpig would work for my purpose (looow tunings etc) in the alder, or if i should go for a slightly less low-mids-y pickup?

i hear people saying the cold sweats are perfect for the low-tuned guitars in basswood etc (that´s you, zimbloth :P), but the painkiller is tempting me. how different are the two, and what is the winning argument on the side of the cold sweat?

i think "Vic Deakins" has the right idea as far as my way of thinking goes. consider that meshugah plays 8 string guitars tuned to F, and play with super-ultra-hot pickups :P

Roobubba

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Re: two baritone guitars, both with different woods. what pickups do they get?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2009, 11:14:17 PM »
Vic Deakins, if you´re Zimbloth, and i assume you are, i DID ask you, and you gave great advice, so i got what i needed from your side :)

i´m trying to get lots of angles on the choises, so i can get arguments for both sides.

and guys, no-one is being mean, we all just have different goals tone-wise :P

now, what i´m wondering is if the ceramic warpig would work for my purpose (looow tunings etc) in the alder, or if i should go for a slightly less low-mids-y pickup?

i hear people saying the cold sweats are perfect for the low-tuned guitars in basswood etc (that´s you, zimbloth :P), but the painkiller is tempting me. how different are the two, and what is the winning argument on the side of the cold sweat?

i think "Vic Deakins" has the right idea as far as my way of thinking goes. consider that meshugah plays 8 string guitars tuned to F, and play with super-ultra-hot pickups :P

I'm not 100% sure about this, but don't Meshuggah play clean and add the distortion afterwards? Can't remember where I got that idea, so it could be urban legend...

Roo