Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Dr. Vic on March 04, 2009, 08:14:24 PM
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Greetings !
I have just registered on this great forum where I found very helpfull informations, thank you all guys ! :good: I need some explanations about the Painkiller and the Nailbomb :
About the PK :
The PK is told to be thin (or dry sounding) and because it is VERY bright it better has to go in dark sounding guitars. It's voice is often associated to old metal school, especially old Mustaine sound (Peace Sells, Rust in Peace, Countdown to extinction) which is very precise, crunchy, agressive and tight but it's true rather sharp than thick or meaty.
BUT THAT SAID, on the other hand, I read some posts stating that the PK is very fat and full sounding, fat with a fat ceramic magnet, fat with lots of bass and a huge bottom end. I also read that the PK has more bass than the MM :gne:!! For instance I read that the Painkiller seems to have the miracle man tightness with a fatter sound with more bass response and biting treble.
These statements are quite opposite to me, maybe it is just a question of language, but where is the truth ? :wallbash:
Is the PK thin (dry) or thick (fat) ?
Isn't the voice of the MM more powerfull and thick for fast rythm tracks ?
And what do you guys call a « huge bottom end » ?
And if the PK has this old school metal vibe, why do people say it is modern sounding ?
About the NB :
That is the pickup on which I saw the most controvertial opinions !!!!.
It is often said on this place NB has rather a deep, thick, extremely punchy/percussive low-end AND a very hot, open and aggressive midrange grind/crunch. And it's description says it all : « a huge agressive assault (,,,) with punchy mids». What's more I even read that if the PK was « old Mustaine » period, the NB will be « current Mustaine » sound which is still agressive and still tight in the bass. Reading that I might understand the NB as a less tight, more warm PK but still with a specific upper mid cut in its voice...a British voice !
BUT THAT SAID, lots of review (have a look at harmony central) are mentioning a « scooped » pickup :roll:, sometimes « muddy » :( in dark sounding guitars with an overall « smooth tone »...As for me (I do not want to receive « all the drama of thunder and lightning ! » from all of you guys :rip:) BUT when I listen to Tim clip of the NB and the other ones, I cannot feel thoses agressive mids. I feel it rather warm, fat and soft (for the rythm chugga things) and fluid (in the leads). I make this statement while comparing NB clips at least to S. Steven clip of the RY (still A5 powered) that sound more agressive and biting to me and far more straight talking, with more « in your faceness » imo... It just « seems » not to cut thru the mix, as well as either PK, RY or even MM (even if this one is told to have the smoother mids) ...
So is there agressive mids in the NB ?
And is the voicing of the NB somewhere close to the PK (british voice), of course with all the difference Ceramic / A5 makes regarding warmth, tightness, versality (though the PK is told to be very versatile too ?)
Can you point me to some clips with a great chuggy / growly / biting riff with some fast palm mutes ala « modern mustaine » to see how it tastes ? :band5:
I also read somewhere that « the PK would be a DARKER and tighter alternativ to the NB » and I do not understand that : is the NB brighter than the PK ? :stupid:
Any help will be greatly appreciated ! :drink:
Cheers !
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Well, I've found the PK to have a bright, open high end AND a huge low end. Mine is double screw pole though, which ups the lows maybe 15% or so.
The MM has about the same lows (I've had MM, covered MM and settled on a double screw 23k MM), but more low mids and less high mids and is smoother and more compressed.
The NB is fairly balanced, has less lows than a PK (I've had double screw poles of both in the same guitar, so the difference levels out), and a more even EQing after that. Its a lot looser and not as big or punchy sounding. More organic. I dont think its smooth - the NB is the only BK I've palyed I didnt like - I thought it was loose (compared to the manner that I am acustomed to being kept in with my main pickups being PK, A-Pig, C-Pig and MM) and kinda harsh.
Bear in mind that BKs are VERY sensitive to the guitar you put them in, so YMMV. Also, much more sensitive to pickup height. If you want the variable-eliminated what-the-pickup-really-sounds-like story the best man to ask is Tim. We've hammered out most of the characteristics of most of the pickups between us (theres still some disagreement that probably stems from the different guitars and setup proclivities of different users) and a lot of us have used different BKs in the same guitar, or the same BKs in different guitars, which is what gives you a much better understanding of the pickup, but Tims testing is extremely extensive - if in doubt (like if we arent saying the same thing) ask The Man.
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...and what you get here is, of course, contraddictory ideas... :)
me and mdv have got a completely different opinion of the nailbomb - that is, by now, the BKP i prefer.
i cannot say what's the difference with the painkiller because i haven't got yet my set... but i don't find harsh at all the nailbombs... just "open" and organic, with a great and balanced midrange... not too bright (but brighter and clearer than a Seymour Duncan JB), with a sound that's perfect for lead purposes. cleans are excellent, clear and defined. if you're after ultratight rhythm sounds (and mdv is, explaining his dislike) it can be a bit too loose, though, and it's not the most aggressive sounding BKP...
scooped is maybe the ONLY word that i would never use to describe the NB (i don't read anymore HC reviews, they say everything and its contrary and are often written by kids with 2 or 3 months of playing experience, so are perfectly useless). no, not the only one... muddy is another... as i said before they can be a little loose for some purpose, but they're definitely tighter and clearer than most pickups on the market, and are very versatile... so i don't think you'll make a bad choice if they're your first BKPs.
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Oh, hell yeah, the nailbombs nowhere near scooped. Or muddy. I can easily see how people like it, I just dont. It lacks the surgical precision I need. A-Pig is my cutoff for that (tight for an A5, so it is).
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Thanks for the replies !!!!
If the PK has more lows than the NB then this might be a clue to understand why the PK is darker than the NB. GOOD POINT ! :D
Then if the PK and MM seems to have about the same amount of bass I thought there was more chunk or meat in the low strings for rythm works with the MM rather than with the PK. (maybe it is a question of voicing instead of frequencies details) :?
For instance MDV clip « holy tyranny » is incredibly tight, agressive, biting AND clear, To me this is what I call an « agressive assault » with an absolute in-your-faceness. BUT I do not hear fatness / thickness which is why I would like to know what do you call a « huge bottom or low end ». I feel it to be dry like...............your throat if you were to the pub to see a France-England rugby match without having the chance to have at least one little fresh beer to be served...at all. :drink:
Then regarding the NB I appreciate to see lots of likes and dislikes that expresses all our different personal tastes which makes the richness of all theses discussions. :wink: As for tightness the thing is that the NB might just not be for tech metal....
BUT my question is toward it's agressivity and mid cut and you both agree to say the EQ is very balanced. So of course there are mids in there but if they are open, fat, organic then I might understand that doesn't help to make them focused, biting and agressive, like the RY or the PK.
So, it is true the NB clean habilities are really tempting BUT where is the « huge agressive assault » of the NB with it's « punchy mids », that you expect to have for some serious riffage :?:
Oh and I won't go to harmony central anymore, I promise :lol:
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Well Holy Tyranny falls victim to recording mechanics - 4 tracking guitars that need to mix with a kick and were planned to mix with a bass as well, plus the 245bpm with lots of palm muted 16ths and youre (or rather I was) forced to use a tone with a lot more high end and less low end than the PK will naturally give through, say, my powerball or a 5150 or dual recto set to 5-5-5 (or 5-5-5-5 or whatever). The settings on my tonelab as I recall were nearly all treble - it was one of the modern metal settings on something like bass 3 mids 0 treble 8.
That PK has about the same low end, maybe just the tiniest shade less, than a C-Pig in the same guitar.
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Oh, thanks for the complementary (parts oif the!) description, btw :D
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at least in my view (but maybe we don't have got the same tonal needs) NB has got a very nice and punchy midrange... but i think that Tim (the Boss) makes better pickups than descriptions! NBs are quite refined pickups (in a modern and aggressive way, of course), and NOT the raw sonic assault you're supposed to expect from the description and the name itself...
exactly what you're planning to buy those pickups for? what's your main style?
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Where to start? :)
PAINKILLER
The PK is told to be thin (or dry sounding) and because it is VERY bright it better has to go in dark sounding guitars.
Not convinced about this. My Jackson KV2 is a VERY bright guitar & the PK sounds awseome in it (clips here (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=11926.0) & here (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=11727.0))
On the other hand, my Charvel model 5 is very thick sounding & bassy. It's a really quirky guitars so my first impressions (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6985.0) post was probably made before I'd experienced the best of the PK (clip here (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7038.0)
Is the PK thin (dry) or thick (fat) ?
Fat.
Isn't the voice of the MM more powerfull and thick for fast rythm tracks ?
No. I'd say the MM is more "dense" & "intense" wheras the PK is more "in yer face". Damn, now we're back to square one with different interpretations of language :lol:
Are you familiar with the term "Djent"? That's the PK all over (see here (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15223.0) if you're not :))
And if the PK has this old school metal vibe, why do people say it is modern sounding ?
Presumably because the power & ceramic tightness makes it ideal for very modern technical metal (e.g. Meshuggah kinda stuff & MDV's excellent lips).
I guess the reference to old school metal is simply because of the name referring to a Priest song. But remember that Painkiller is relatively modern priest. I'm not convinced there's anything "old school" about it...
NAILBOMB
...with a specific upper mid cut in its voice...
That's the most accurate part of your first paragraph :)
a « scooped » pickup :roll: ... with an overall « smooth tone »
I can only assume that whoever wrote this confuse it with the Cold Sweat. It is absolutely NOT scooped - if anything it's the exact opposite of scooped.
muddy
um, no. Absolutely no way.
So is there agressive mids in the NB ?
Yes, I think so.
I also read somewhere that « the PK would be a DARKER and tighter alternativ to the NB » and I do not understand that
Me neither. Big difference in power, voice, dynamics, eq.
I think that one mistake many people make is choosing a pickup to "offset" (or work against) certain qualities in a guitar, where often the best thing to do would be to accentuate those qualities as these are what make that guitar special (i.e. bright pickup in bright guitar as opposed to bright pickup in dark guitar). I think I made that mistake with the Nailbomb - having tried it in 2 Les Pauls & a PRS, it wasn't until I put it in my alder strat that I really heard it at its best.
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I know it has a lot do with words : thanks for having make me learn a new one : Djent !! 8)
Your clips of the PK are more fat than the MDV « holy tyranny » sound, but still too much dry sounding for my personal tastes. For instance I have to tell « Rust in Peace » is my favorite metal album, but for it's songs and style, and not for it's sound, that I find too sharp and thin (dry), not enough fat (thick), ballsy....
The kind of sounds I want to nail will be something in between Dream theater (going under), megadeth (youthanasia and TSHF album), or Linkin Park (meteora album) or even Ozzy osbourne in the Zakk area (M. Tinkertrain, Perry mason). Something in between all theses kind of flavors (but not beyond tech-death metal) Just Thick + aggressive. I never use detunings and I play a 6 strings.
I think the PK is associated to old school metal because you can easily nail those « rust in Peace » « countdown to extinction », « reign in blood », « Kill'em all » vibe, Does that make sense ?
Antag, in your review "Painkiller first impression" mention " Tonally it's totally different to the MM, more mids & treble, less bass" I really tought the MM would have more chunk and be more generous and fat sounding in the bass than the PK but I should be wrong, I need to listen back to some MM clips... :headphones4:
You guys seems to agree to say the NB has aggressive mids but that's still a mystery to me : I do not find them. :boulet:
As Dheim said I might have expect them to be more raw, less refined. I am also positive the Man had take the time to choose the most appropriate words to describe the BKP range, that's why I'll be glad if someone can make me learn more about what MDV called with accuracy the « what-the-pickup-really-sounds-like story »...
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The kind of sounds I want to nail will be something in between Dream theater (going under), megadeth (youthanasia and TSHF album), or Linkin Park (meteora album) or even Ozzy osbourne in the Zakk area (M. Tinkertrain, Perry mason). Something in between all theses kind of flavors (but not beyond tech-death metal) Just Thick + aggressive. I never use detunings and I play a 6 strings.
Then miracle man or even holy diver.
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The kind of sounds I want to nail will be something in between Dream theater (going under), megadeth (youthanasia and TSHF album), or Linkin Park (meteora album) or even Ozzy osbourne in the Zakk area (M. Tinkertrain, Perry mason). Something in between all theses kind of flavors (but not beyond tech-death metal) Just Thick + aggressive. I never use detunings and I play a 6 strings.
Then miracle man or even holy diver.
I was thinking "Holy Diver or possibly Miracle Man" :lol:
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Why guys a MM over a PK if you agree to say they have about the same bass and thickness ?
I fear the lack of versality of the MM which is reviewed as the least versatile in the BKP range and the most "only metal". (I want a bridge humbucker that has to be useable with cleans.) My guitar has to stay versatile + I fear the MM to be too compressed
And why a HD over a NB if it is said here the NB can nail "modern mustaine sound". Can anyone say which current Megadeth song is close to the NB ?
The pickup I am going to replace will be a TB4 JB which lacks tightness / aggressivity for some metal (but which is still OK for cleans rythm works, especially when splitted). I want something really better for metal and the HD is the one closest to the JB in the BKP range, I think the HD won't be "enough" evil :twisted:
Quite funny to look at some PK or NB and be pointed at a MM or HD :lol:
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I play all instrumental music in a band, and dop all lead guitar and heavier rythm work (for themost part). The painkiller will let your rig and your guitar sound its best. Non coloring, and EXTREMELY tight and focused, but still has GREAT low end...Lots (and lots) of midrange push and open vocal quality, but doesnt sound honky, just Extremely harmonic and clean, and an amazingly clear top end, great treble but is not too bright...I am VERy against bright pickups, and generally go through about 10 per guitar to find the right one, and my treble on my amp is ALWAYS under half...The painkiller is not bright in my rig, it makes me sound like me...It also has the best articulation and characteristic response for your right hand. Whether Im playing dream theater or Joe satriani, it sounds AMAZING DUDE!!!
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The pickup I am going to replace will be a TB4 JB which lacks tightness / aggressivity for some metal (but which is still OK for cleans rythm works, especially when splitted). I want something really better for metal and the HD is the one closest to the JB in the BKP range, I think the HD won't be "enough" evil :twisted:
I made that change & really liked (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6308.0) it :D (my RR1T became my #1 guitar as a result)
Is this (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14365.0) evil enough? How about this (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12997.0)? or this (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6461.0)? or this (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9744.msg124744#msg124744)? :twisted:
IMHO it's absolutely wonderful clean (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6459.0), really versatile (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6608.0)
The one thing I'd avoid is de-tuning - it does it OK down to around drop-C# (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6460.0) but I think the PK, WP, NB (or CWP though I don't have one) are better at going really low.
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Quite funny to look at some PK or NB and be pointed at a MM or HD :lol:
It's an unwritten rule on this forum that if someone posts a "should I get A or B?" type question, that we recommend something else... :)
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I used to have a Jackson RR1, it was back to 1993, it was before the Fender invasion in Fort Worth, Texas...
Mine was an absolute blast. She camed with the 500-L and 500-XL as standard. I just put a SH1 on the neck instead of the 500-L. And she was awesome. I miss her :cry:
Anyway you seem to be a whole sample-library by yourself :lol:
I like your sound with the HD on the RR1. Incredibly more thick and less dry than the one you have with your KV2 with the PK and still agressive. But I do not know if your mesa and / or Engl head are not a lot part of it (As for me I play a Marshall JCM2000 DSL 401 combo).
And there is a lack of some tightness in the bass for my personal tastes.
Quite funny to look at some PK or NB and be pointed at a MM or HD :lol:
It's an unwritten rule on this forum that if someone posts a "should I get A or B?" type question, that we recommend something else... :)
I expected that the BKP forum rule you mention would also have worked for me which is why I would like to stay in the « what-the-pickup-really-sounds-like story », in order to learn about pickup particularities at first.
So Why a MM over a PK if you say they have the same amount of bass and thickness ?
And why a HD over a NB, if the NB is more agressive ? Do you have NB clips as well that would show the agressive mids I am looking for ? If you say Yes, then I'll call you « Virgin Megastore » or « Amazon » if you prefer :D.
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maybe i already said that, you know, i'm getting old and i've just finished probing asses (i'm not a sodomite, just a surgeon... ;)), but i tink that the NB could be seen as a nastier, middier and brighter JB...
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Not sure it is necessary in your life to be a surgeon to catch the asses your after, anyway.... :orcass:
Back to pickups : As I am telling from the beginning I trust you all guys when you say the NB is nasty and middy and aggressive, just would like to be sure this one is really able to kick bad asses, with a REAL bite and REAL aggressivity. To me the leads (where the NB seems to be at his best) are really fluids and the rythm stuff are always warm, some say tight enough, depending on how fast you like you chugga things, the choards are fat, BUT never, to me, aggressive (compared to the RY and the PK), from what I've heard at the moment...
But I am waiting for Antag to come back with some new samples !! :D
Oh and I forgot to tell you, I cannot explain why, but I find this chick more pleasant to look at than the other one. Maybe I need to create a topic to let people vote for the best one ! :lol:
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are you talking about miss emilie autumn?
yes, she's definitely hot. :)
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Sorry, I don't have any Nailbomb clips - never recorded any because there are so many on the forum already (FWIW, the reason I recorded so many Holy Diver clips is that I was one of the first on this forum to really rave about the HD & there were no clips of it at all at the time. Plus it's by far my favourite :))
Why I think the NB is described as "aggressive" is the scything ripping upper mids & the dynamic response. For some reason, when I play a NB under really high gain I find my self wanting to hit the strings really hard, shout "raaaaahhhhh" & headbutt the wall :twisted:
If it helps, we discussed the differences between HD/NB here (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7042.0)
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Nice to hear back from you. Reading what you said I was thinking the NB will be very addictive to play with :D
I knew about this HD/NB topic and there is another one somewhere (I don't know how to put the link) called « Nailbomb vs holydiver ». In this one we have Eric Hellstyle explaining the NB is a « ninja » whereas the HD is a « samouraļ ». :lol: Very funny to look at but more seriously, also very demonstrative...
Anyway you absolutely spot it : I am looking for this upper mid cut because imo that is what gives you aggressive bite AND the in-your-faceness of your sound. And because the NB is told to have this upper mid cut, that's why I was tempted to say at the beginning to this topic that the NB might have some PK voice in it, also called « british voice ».
THAT SAID, I cannot hear it from the clips I've heard. They all are beautiful, especially the one of The Man (Of course 8)), but also the others like the ones from Derya Nagle that are on the same vibe, for instance « pastel shade » and of course « september solo » which is absolutely stunning. BUT the upper mid cut described before just doesn't show (nothing ripping here. To me, of course).
If someone could point me to a NB clip that is very demonstrative on this field I would really appreciate.
And may I ask you guys again why you and MDV are suggesting a MM over a PK ?
and a HD over the NB, if the NB is expected to me more agressive ?
what would be the altenative to the HD if as I told you I would find it more tasty with a twist of more tightness + more bite ?
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ok, I'm in :lol:
lot of info
let's see
About the PK :
The PK is told to be thin (or dry sounding) and because it is VERY bright it better has to go in dark sounding guitars. It's voice is often associated to old metal school, especially old Mustaine sound (Peace Sells, Rust in Peace, Countdown to extinction) which is very precise, crunchy, agressive and tight but it's true rather sharp than thick or meaty.
BUT THAT SAID, on the other hand, I read some posts stating that the PK is very fat and full sounding, fat with a fat ceramic magnet, fat with lots of bass and a huge bottom end. I also read that the PK has more bass than the MM :gne:!! For instance I read that the Painkiller seems to have the miracle man tightness with a fatter sound with more bass response and biting treble.
These statements are quite opposite to me, maybe it is just a question of language, but where is the truth ? :wallbash:
Is the PK thin (dry) or thick (fat) ?
Isn't the voice of the MM more powerfull and thick for fast rythm tracks ?
And what do you guys call a « huge bottom end » ?
And if the PK has this old school metal vibe, why do people say it is modern sounding ?
the painkiller is not thin
it has a really vast and full range of frequencies, but definitely more midrange specifically
it can sound dry, cause it's low end end is punchy, but really tight, with a "tchenk tchenk" effect on palm mutes, but the mids are full and the highs aren't ice picky or harsh
not a pickup I'd match with alder or ash, for example
it is fat and thick sounding, but doesn't have a big low end
it has nice and firm ass, but not big and bouncy :lol:
pickups react differently on each wood/guitar type, specially GOOD pickups
my holy diver sounded completely different in 3 mahogany guitars
in my japanese LP mahogany/maple top, it sounded fat, but bright, aggressive
in the brazilian mahogany (same species as the honduran) LP with imbuya top (that was a very dark guitar), it sounded smoother, a bit darker and more full sounding, but brighter than the miracle man in the same guitar
in my Gibson SG (which is a pretty good and really resonant guitar), it sounded way darker, much less powerful, and no near as good as it did in the les paul
now I have it in the SG, but with an alnico 8 magnet installed, so it sounds brighter, tighter and more powerful, like it did in the first les paul, but lost some of the depth and it's more dry sounding, a bit less organic
the braziliam mahogany les paul also had a painkiller and two miracle man (different pickup samples of the same model, I mean)
it had A LOT more low end punch with the miracle man than with the painkiller and holy diver
it also sounded a bit darker than both, more dense and focused
bit less organic, though, but it really matches that guitar
the painkiller had a better lead tone than the MM, but miracle man was much more punchy
the other ones sounded VERY punchy anyway (except a cr@ppy bill lawrence that made the guitar sound like a strat)
note that Mustaine used a Duncan Distortion and some Bill lawrence in the 80's AND he used mostly alder guitars in bright sounding amps, so of course a painkiller would sound bright and thin in the same conditions
also, have in mind that 90% of the pickups used by modern rock/metal musicians are the SAME used in the 80's
JB, distortion, super distortion, l500xl, emg 81, invader... and a few supposedly "evolved" versions of older models like x2n/megadrive, dimebucker/l500xl, 500t/dirty fingers
About the NB :
That is the pickup on which I saw the most controvertial opinions !!!!.
It is often said on this place NB has rather a deep, thick, extremely punchy/percussive low-end AND a very hot, open and aggressive midrange grind/crunch. And it's description says it all : « a huge agressive assault (,,,) with punchy mids». What's more I even read that if the PK was « old Mustaine » period, the NB will be « current Mustaine » sound which is still agressive and still tight in the bass. Reading that I might understand the NB as a less tight, more warm PK but still with a specific upper mid cut in its voice...a British voice !
BUT THAT SAID, lots of review (have a look at harmony central) are mentioning a « scooped » pickup :roll:, sometimes « muddy » :( in dark sounding guitars with an overall « smooth tone »...As for me (I do not want to receive « all the drama of thunder and lightning ! » from all of you guys :rip:) BUT when I listen to Tim clip of the NB and the other ones, I cannot feel thoses agressive mids. I feel it rather warm, fat and soft (for the rythm chugga things) and fluid (in the leads). I make this statement while comparing NB clips at least to S. Steven clip of the RY (still A5 powered) that sound more agressive and biting to me and far more straight talking, with more « in your faceness » imo... It just « seems » not to cut thru the mix, as well as either PK, RY or even MM (even if this one is told to have the smoother mids) ...
So is there agressive mids in the NB ?
And is the voicing of the NB somewhere close to the PK (british voice), of course with all the difference Ceramic / A5 makes regarding warmth, tightness, versality (though the PK is told to be very versatile too ?)
Can you point me to some clips with a great chuggy / growly / biting riff with some fast palm mutes ala « modern mustaine » to see how it tastes ? :band5:
I also read somewhere that « the PK would be a DARKER and tighter alternativ to the NB » and I do not understand that : is the NB brighter than the PK ? :stupid:
I don't have any experience with the nailbomb, but I've always seem it as the diver older brother (sheet, you found my retarded samurai/ninja metaphor :lol:)
you gotta have in mind that it is an alnico 5 pickup, so you'll hardly be able to have a fair comparison with a high output ceramic model when it comes to punch, tightness and aggressivity comparisons
so compared to ALNICO pickups, I'd say it IS punchy, percussive (all BKP's are very percussive, imo), thick, deep sounding
and definitely a very middy pickup, like the painkiller
I don't think it will be brighter than the painkiller and not really comparable by any aspect, except amount of mids, maybe
totally different pickups (like expected)
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Anyway you absolutely spot it : I am looking for this upper mid cut because imo that is what gives you aggressive bite AND the in-your-faceness of your sound. And because the NB is told to have this upper mid cut, that's why I was tempted to say at the beginning to this topic that the NB might have some PK voice in it, also called « british voice ».
actually, what some call "british voicing", I'd call Seymour Duncan's voicing
most Duncan medium/high output models are bright, aggressive and middy, like mid boosted versions of the old Gibson models
different from the nasal and processed Dimarzios, for example
and I think Tim must be a big Duncan/Gibson fan, since most BKP models sound like heavily improved Duncan/Gibsons
the diver definitely sounds fatter, tighter and bigger than the JB, but not more aggressive
its upper mids and highs are much more rounded, "friendly" and smoother
the nailbomb sounds less thick, but more "hairy"
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I have Nailbombs in an alder superstrat, and I'd describe them as middy and smooth - definitely not aggressive.
When I talked to Tim about them asking for something that would get the smooth gain of Gary Moores Wild Frontier album, but also be versatile, that's what he recommended.
Mark.
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I have a couple of mahogany bodied Ibanez RGs with calibrated sets of Nailbombs and PainKillers and while I generally agree with previous comments about them I'd also say that the NBs in particular have a distinctive organic "breathing" sound to them, especially in response to playing dynamics and pick attack whereas the PKs are more "present" and immediate, but both are far more than one trick ponies and tweaking the controls on the guitar/effects/amp soon opens up more tone and overall sound dimensions. Even changing the tone capacitor value on the guitar offers subtle yet distinctive variations in pickup response. Which is why my guitars are fitted with 3 way switches so I can choose between .022, .033 and .047 caps.
Both of these pups are superb but you'll never know if they are right for you until they're in your guitar in your hands and playing through your rig ....so goodluck :lol:
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not a pickup I'd match with alder or ash, for example
I did. Sounds great.
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Hum...
Lots of great infos thank you guys !. PDT_003
Some points still on debate :
starting from the basis :
my holy diver sounded completely different in 3 mahogany guitars
in my japanese LP mahogany/maple top, it sounded fat, but bright, aggressive
in the brazilian mahogany (same species as the honduran) LP with imbuya top (that was a very dark guitar), it sounded smoother, a bit darker and more full sounding, but brighter than the miracle man in the same guitar
in my Gibson SG (which is a pretty good and really resonant guitar), it sounded way darker, much less powerful, and no near as good as it did in the les paul
I would have thought that considering 2 guitars built with the same wood (mahogany), the one you find the most resonant, will be the one that allow pickups to catch more vibrations (and more overtone harmonics) and thus will be brighter than the other (a darker guitar guitar would be, as far as I understand it, the guitar that will soak up the most vibration and thus resonance from the instrument). But you said your SG is darker than your LP, quite difficult for me to see what is going on here.... :?
For the PK :
Then if the PK isn't thin sounding, maybe his reputation may has more to do with some dry-ness in his voice. You are good at these sound illustration and the nice and firm ass as opposed to a big bouncy one speaks a lot. :P As I said previously, and while reading these 3 comments here after, I'm not sure to have completely understand what « a huge bottom end » is. I think this might be usefull to say more about that because this is still confusing me especially when speaking about the difference with the MM regarding it's bass power and thickness :
the painkiller is not thin (...) it is fat and thick sounding, but doesn't have a big low end
(...) the braziliam mahogany les paul (...) had A LOT more low end punch with the miracle man than with the painkiller and holy diver. it also sounded a bit darker than both, more dense and focused
Well, I've found the PK to have a bright, open high end AND a huge low end.
The MM has about the same lows (I've had MM, covered MM and settled on a double screw 23k MM), but more low mids and less high mids and is smoother and more compressed.
Isn't the voice of the MM more powerfull and thick for fast rythm tracks ?
No. I'd say the MM is more "dense" & "intense" wheras the PK is more "in yer face".
Can you clear it up for me ? And why do Antag and MDV think the MM will be a better alternative for me ?
I really fear the lack of versality of the MM and cleans seems to work best with the PK too...
For the NB :
you gotta have in mind that it is an alnico 5 pickup, so you'll hardly be able to have a fair comparison with a high output ceramic model when it comes to punch, tightness and aggressivity comparisons
so compared to ALNICO pickups, I'd say it IS punchy, percussive (all BKP's are very percussive, imo), thick, deep sounding and definitely a very middy pickup, like the painkiller
I compared the punch, tightness, and agressivity of the NB to the RY (also A5 powered). As a result I found the RY far more efficient on these 3 fields. And this report we have here show pretty well the difficulty to understand the agressivity expected on the NB...
I have Nailbombs in an alder superstrat, and I'd describe them as middy and smooth - definitely not aggressive.
When I talked to Tim about them asking for something that would get the smooth gain of Gary Moores Wild Frontier album, but also be versatile, that's what he recommended.
Mark.
Any other thoughts or demonstrative clips of the NB would be very appreciated !
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i am not sure if this will help you, but if i ever said anything less than AWESOME about the PK before actually playing it... well, i've been an asshole. period.
i finally got my ibanez with a PK set yesterday and it's frightening! i won't use it to play rock, that's for sure... it's a totally metal oriented pickup but it does its work perfectly... tight, aggressive, evil and NOT thin at all!
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thaaanks for the reply Dheim. So you find the PK perfect...and maybe more agressive than the NB ? :D
And You didn't find it having the most pronounced bright and/or dry voicing, at least compared with to the other BKP you have in your rig ?
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i wouldn't call it dry, not at all. i feared it could be too bright, but the story is all about high mids, so it's not harsh, and it nicely balanced by mid and low mids, so it sounds very "full". not round as a holydiver or warm as a warpig, but definitely not thin. one thing you should consider is that the S is a very middy guitar, and so the PK exhalts its tonal features...
the nailbomb has got a more open and rich voice, that works better for leads or solos, but the PK beats it for rhythm work. artificial harmonics ring everywhere at the slightest touch, and this is another great thing!
i feared it could be a sort of one trick pony, but it isn't, and it sounds great for lead work too, anyway.
and yes, it's more aggressive than the NB... that is still my first choice for progressive tones. straighter kinds of metal need a PK, other could have said this before, and they were right!
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Thanks for the input !
I was "focused" PDT_023 on something particulary dry or bright in the PK voicing compared to the rest of the BKP range because I read that it has "a permament snarl that is not for everyone", and because of that kind of review, which sum up quite well (I think) what was the experience of peoples who had a dislike with the PK :
Well, I will give you my "personal" thoughts...
I also play melodic death metal, and I've tried the Nailbombs (alnico set), Miracle man (set) and also the Painkiller bridge...
For my personal tastes, the PK didnt work at all... was too trebly with many highs - middle/highs... I had a bad time on stage when I change guitars from one with the MM to the PK... the sound changed a lot, and I had to start tweaking the amp on the fly... (bad moment).
But you guys here didn't seem to have that same bad experience...Pretty interesting !
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in response to your PM, Vic - I said MM because those bands sounds would be best achieved with a MM. Dream theatre has MM all over it, as does Ozzy, and mid-career, darker-toned megadeth is eminently achievable with a MM. Its the smooth, lots of high end, lots of low mids, slightly dark in the high mids, bright, sharp treble thing its got going on.
Doesnt roll back very well though (unlike all the other BKs) and its cleans are passable, but not great (unlike all other BKs).
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uhm... the "permanent snarl" is definitely there. it happens also with the warpig, only a bit more on the left side of the spectrum (the WP, of course!)... this is what makes them sound so aggressive and i don't point it as a negative feature...
i heard a PK - NB comparison clip in which the PK sounded very thin in comparison... and i must say that this very thing kept me away from the PK unless i decided to BKPize every guitar of mine... playing it i hadn't this impression, not at all.
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Now I've got it ! Thank you guys. PDT_003
In fact as I remember you, MDV, and Darth hellstyle (!) both saying on this forum that ''NB = modern mustaine tone'', I guess this had confused me as I applied the second and now famous BKP forum rule :lol::
miracle man
The truth Darth Hellstyle speaks. The Miracle Man you must have.
when MDV and I about something agree, an unquestionable truth that shall be :lol:
:lol: New forum rule :lol:
But it seem obvious to me now the MM is more close to the sound I want to nail. So yes I am definetely looking for that MM voicing with his low mid push AND darker tone
BUT THAT SAID cleans are also important to me AND I cannot allow me to kill the versality of my guitar, which is really versatile (maybe it's its first quality), with such a pup. And MM seems clearly to lack the versatily of the rest of the BKP range... :(
So here I am....on a never ending circle, looking for those qualities in one pup :lol: :
1/ the voicing of the MM with maybe a little less compressed and more organic tone
2/ the bite / agressivity of the PK without it's high mid focus / snarl voicing
3/ the warmth / thickness of the HD without it's too much rounded tone and with more tightness
4/ the versality of the NB without it's too « refined voicing » as dheim said, or this I-dunnot-know-how-to-define-and-what-disturb-me. This pup is still a mystery to me. Maybe looking for a more raw (like ROOAARR !) overall agressive tone !
A sort of compromise to find I suppose....But more considering a MM or a HD at the moment. Anyway unless you say I am wrong, I suppose I have to stay on ceramic, for great tightness + the in-your-faceness I am interrested in. (Nolly sent me a video showing the tightness of the NB would not be a problem for me though, see it but I guess it is already done, it is just :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: www.brokebands.com. )
So which one will complete more easily this equation ?
MM voicing + NB versality = ?
Did anyone experiment a C-HD ? Is it a bad idea to consider it, if it does exist ?
will a DSP PK be more close to the MM voicing ?
Any other ideas ? :idea:
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Yeah, optimally for the modern megadeth. Doesnt mean the MM cant do it, and the NB isnt as good for the other stuff you said
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...warpig?
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...warpig?
Way too beefy for me and not sure about it's voicing...too much for me.
Yeah, optimally for the modern megadeth. Doesnt mean the MM cant do it, and the NB isnt as good for the other stuff you said
Hummm. I see Thanks for that precision. And what alternative choice for that MM voicing + NB versality
C-HD?, DSP PK ?
Thanks guys !
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things are getting a bit complicated... after 3 pages memory starts to fail... have you already asked tim?
i think i'll give you the same suggestion i gave yesterday after the 4 pages of another similar thread... you have few possibilities to get a pickup that's completely wrong for your tonal needs... on the other hand it's very probable that any BKP you'll try will give you a GOOD sound.
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Ceramic Nailbomb?
-Zaned
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Cold Sweat?
Very rounded, got a reasonable bite, and is definitely aggressive if you dig in. Very versatile. Not voiced like the MM, though.
I find the MM to be pretty dry, great for surgical riffage and taming Mesa Rectifiers but not massively fat (it's not thin, just not as massive sounding as the CS), and the clean isn't good.
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I'll say it again:
wood matters.
a lot.
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Cold Sweat?
Very rounded, got a reasonable bite, and is definitely aggressive if you dig in. Very versatile. Not voiced like the MM, though.
I find the MM to be pretty dry, great for surgical riffage and taming Mesa Rectifiers but not massively fat (it's not thin, just not as massive sounding as the CS), and the clean isn't good.
not true
the cold sweat was a direct replacement the miracle man I had
the miracle man sounds more massive and it isn't that much more dry
the cold sweat has just a fair amount of mids (not an extra ton of mids) and has definitely less bass and low mids
the clean is better, but I'd say like 30% tops
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I had a look at those ones...
What Tim told me about the CS is that it is bright in the highs, tight in the bass with very smooth mids.
(And that the CS is lower in output and will not cut through the upper mids as well as a PK). He also described the C-NB as in between the PK and the CS, with more bottom end and more low mid than the CS. BUT he said the C-NB will be brighter than a PK (and a CS brighter than a C-NB). And as I thought the PK would already be too bright for me, then maybe these ones are not for me...
And I had in mind that the NB would be kind of a warmer-less-tight-more-versatile alternative to the PK...But now I am more interested in a more darker voice I think. Thanks to you guys who pointed also at the MM and the HD ! now choosing between 4 pickups instead of 2 :lol:....
So is there any other option for a MM voiced pickup (with a low mids push) BUT more versatile :?:
I thought I read somewhere here (but I may be wrong) that the stock HD model used to be available first with a ceramic magnet. Can someone confirm that ? And did someone experiment that ? Can this be an option ?
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not entirely on topic.
i don't like to talk on second-hand knowledge (as i think i've steted before i've never played yet a MM), so i can't tell you if MMs and HDs can be compared in some way... i like my HDs, but i don't LOVE them. not yet, at least, and i could tell you the same thing for the CS... on the other hand with WP, NB, PK, MQ, PiG90 i fell instantly in love.
I began to like more my CS after i played them with my valve amp (they didn't such an impression on my POD), while for the HD the story is quite the opposite... i just used them with the band and they disappeared, completely suffocated by the overly bright sound of the other guitarist... i noticed the same contrast with other pickups (the guy is always annoyingly trebly), but somehow they managed to emerge anyway. HDs didn't, but maybe it was just because my performance was quite awful...
the only thing i can say is that HDs not only didn't come though the wall of screeching highs of the other guitar, but they failed to overpower it in the bottom end... usually all i need to show who's the boss is to do some palm muting and feel the air moving... HDs were curiously weak in this department, despite their otherwise dark sound.
a mistery.
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I just installed some Nailbombs in my SG special last night. I'm really happy. Like most BKPs, they were a bit fussy about pickup height, but once I got the bridge pickup up nice and high it fattened up a whole heap, and the neck sounds nice and lush. The EQ is more balanced than the stock Gibson pickups, and there's more life and harmonic response. The NBs definitely aren't too dark in the all mahogany SG, though if I were playing metal I'd probably want a bit more articulation (but I'm not, so I don't ;)). Awesome blues/ballad tones!
ATM, I have the controls wired up as master volume and master tone (with two disconnected pots), but i may do away with the tone pot altogether. The neck is as close to "woman tone" as I like with the tone on full, and the bridge just gets truly horrendous "suck tone" when I touch the tone pot :(
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Oh ! :o
That ! PDT_023
HDs not only didn't come though the wall of screeching highs of the other guitar, but they failed to overpower it in the bottom end... usually all i need to show who's the boss is to do some palm muting and feel the air moving... HDs were curiously weak in this department, despite their otherwise dark sound. a mistery.
I started this topic with enigmas around 2 pups, but it's name has now to be changed with the HD to be added !!!. Have you ever speak to some HD users (like Antag and Eric H on this topic) to see if they had the same feeling? I have understood the HD as a really THICK Pickup with loads of lows and mids (not upper mids, but mids and lows mids ) . Don't you have any pb with some wood or something with your guitar design that could explain that to us ????? This is just :o
As for me, you guys solved the questions I had about the PK : Congratulations 8).
As a result I know this one is not for me :lol:
BUT as for the NB I still stay in trouble... :? :? :? since I discover the demo of the JCM800 KK by Chris George using some NB on this other topic : http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=16434.0
And a clip of the NB I didn't heard before too here : http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14300.0
........The sounds are awesome, It has what I look for : tight - quite enough / thick / agressive / growly / organic / top harmonics. But not sure if it has some of the low-mid push I love in the MM... And if it will be dark enough too... As you seems to agree the NB is close to the modern Megadeth, and that I am searching to nail that sound + dream theater (pull me under) + Linkin Park (Meteora) then I might not be so far... What would the HD adds or take out in those sounds ??
AND Do you think these 2 clips are rather demonstrative of the tonal possibilities of the NB as for rythm palm mute + agressivity (to me these 2 sounds have absolutely nothing to do with ALL the other NB clip I have listen to and that always gave me a sensation of something warm, smooth, or what you want BUT raw and agressive...).
Is the NB Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde ?? :crazy2: :hmm: And can the NB be the versatile MM I am looking for ?
Any answer very very welcome here !!!!!!!!!
Many Thanks !!
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What I've come clear after tried a few BKP, and read tons of posts is this...
You must try...
Everybody has their own guitars... different woods, shapes, weights... different amps, different, different cabs, different playing style... and definitly, different TASTES...
So what is good for me cannot be good for other...
My best advise is... if you are between 2... MM and NB (for example), simply get both, try them both, and keep the most you like and sell the other (or whatever you think)...
That's the only way... That's what I did...
No matter how can I explain with my words how I felt the pickup :(, there are many many different factors that really matter in the sound...
I've read amazing descriptions in this thread, and I think that shoudl be good enough to help you "to make an idea"... of what should you get...
There are many different pickups that really works well for what you asked... dont be affraid man, and go for it ;) and then tell us your experience :D
Good luck and I hope you can back here with the pickup installed and good clips of it ;)
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I've been wondering about something regarding the Nailbomb. What would happen if I were to get one wound to 18-19k? How would that affect the sound? Has anyone tried it before? I'd email Tim, but I don't want to bother the man until maybe a week or so before I order. What benefits would I get from a calibrated set, vs. a Nailbomb at the bridge and a P-92 at the neck?
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What benefits would I get from a calibrated set, vs. a Nailbomb at the bridge and a P-92 at the neck?
with calibrated sets you get two pickups that match perfectly (in terms of tone and output) according to the taste of their maker... i won't change anything - but of course i've got the advantage of having a wide choice of sets... a great "alternative" set is a bridge warpig with a pig90, and many (i'd say most) players on this forum couple whatever bridge pickup they like with a cold sweat neck... assuming that you've got two humbucker sized pickup sockets your choice is huge, and you can put in bridge position an HB sized p90 (aka Mississippi Queen) wound as you prefer... original MQs sound great but they're too vintagey to be mixed with high output humbuckers... a pig90 rivals even the warpig. and is very clear and tight, more articulated than the WP neck (it's a single coil, after all!) and i bet you can ask for intermediate windings...
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I'm buying a body and neck, so I can get it bored any way I like. I'm kinda ambivalent about having a humbucker at the neck anyway (my previous experiences with them were eh), and I'm a P-90 junkie anyway. To be honest, I'm more curious about an overwound Nailbomb...
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uhm... it seems like i'm one of the few who actually finds the nailbomb pretty brutal when it needs to be, but i think you should try it (unless you've already done) as it is!
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I've been wondering about something regarding the Nailbomb. What would happen if I were to get one wound to 18-19k? How would that affect the sound? Has anyone tried it before? I'd email Tim, but I don't want to bother the man until maybe a week or so before I order.
interesting question...do you know if it possible to get an overwound NB ?
I wonder if it will just give you more output or also give you more tightness and maybe a little different EQ..??
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I've been wondering about something regarding the Nailbomb. What would happen if I were to get one wound to 18-19k? How would that affect the sound? Has anyone tried it before? I'd email Tim, but I don't want to bother the man until maybe a week or so before I order.
interesting question...do you know if it possible to get an overwound NB ?
I wonder if it will just give you more output or also give you more tightness and maybe a little different EQ..??
If Tim can overwind my Mississippi Queen for me, I have no doubt that he'll overwind a Nailbomb, provided it doesn't compromise the sound.
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I have a 23k miracle man. So, yes.
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thanks man !
I know that the NB isn't your cup of tea :lol:, but how would you expect of the sound of :
- an overwound NB compared to a regular NB
- a C-NB compared to the regular NB
I mean they will have more /less of what ?
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how would you expect of the sound of :
- an overwound NB compared to a regular NB
darker, thicker, more compressed, less tight
like a warpig, but probably darker
- a C-NB compared to the regular NB
brighter, tighter, hotter, less organic, stiffer response
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how would you expect of the sound of :
- an overwound NB compared to a regular NB
darker, thicker, more compressed, less tight
like a warpig, but probably darker
- a C-NB compared to the regular NB
brighter, tighter, hotter, less organic, stiffer response
What woods do you think nailbombs are best in?
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Many many thanks for the top chrono input :lol:
What about the mids in the C-NB ? more or less than the NB ? smoother or more biting than the NB ?
I read that ceramic "sucks" the mids of the A5, but don't know what to think about that...
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My overwound MM is no less tight than my previous 2 mms in the same guitar. Tighter, if anything.
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Many many thanks for the top chrono input :lol:
What about the mids in the C-NB ? more or less than the NB ? smoother or more biting than the NB ?
I read that ceramic "sucks" the mids of the A5, but don't know what to think about that...
can't answer that
maybe the great Nolly can
he said it's middy, just not melting middy like the painkiller
but ceramic magnets don't suck mids
usually A5 sounds LESS middy than ceramics, A2, A4, A8, A3, specially in PAF wound pickups, but that depends a lot on the winding
maybe the dry ceramic feel may cause some misunderstandment
people usually relate stiff/tight/dry picking response with scooped mids
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My overwound MM is no less tight than my previous 2 mms in the same guitar. Tighter, if anything.
but he's talking about a very middy and already hot alnico pup
I doubt it will retain the same low end tightness with extra output, bass, mids, compression and less top end
not with the same winding
the miracle man and warpig have thinner wire to retain the treble and clarity (thinner wire = more resistance = less turns on the coil = less treble loss)
I'd really like to try a 18k cold sweat in my Gibson SG, though :D
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I'm aware of the differences in voicing and wire. Increased resistance also decreases treble.
One of the major factors against an overwound NB is that it uses plain enamel wire, and only polysol can be taken up to such high DCs with good tonal results (i.e. Tim doesnt do it because he doesnt like it, I forget the details of why)
And the points you raise are moot anyway, since Tim compensates for deceased high transmission (greater run of the same wire) in the wind. Hence, my MM sounds the same as any other save its a bit more compressed and its way hotter. It would likely be brighter, in fact, were it not for the double screw pole.
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When did you guys agreed for the last time ? :lol:
Anyway. Heard back from Tim... 8) He didn't mention anything about tightness, but the idea to overwound standard pickups doesn't seem to please him 'that much', and as for the NB he didn't seem to think it could be a good idea...
A NB is somewhere in between 15,7K to 15,9K and he advised against pushing it more than that. The pickup are designed to give the best equilibrium between treble and bass / middle. He explained me that overwounding would break this equilibrium while lowering the trebble and raising the bass / middle, for a too dark sounding result..
I also sent him some precise samples of the sounds I am after (Modern Deth, L. Park, D. Theater) and The Man, answered quietly and so easily :rock:: 'hey Vic, I can get all the tone you want here using a MM !'
But for a more versatile alternative to the MM (which is what I am looking for) he said NB because the HD would be too rounded for what I am after (I already was unsure about having enough agressivity with the NB, and he said the HD was less agressive, even though it is hotter...)
So I applied the forum rule number one and will see what happen next.... Thanks again guys !
PDT_003
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You ordered pickups!!?!?!
Well $%&# me sideways, I thought this day would never come. A decision!!! Yay for decisions!!!
Congrats, tell us what you th....wait, I dont think we need to tell you that, huh? ;)
Enjoy!
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:lol: :lol:
A Nailbomb has been launched...
And Thanks for your lights on this 5 pages topic Sir Yoda ! You pointed it pretty well with Antag on the MM / HD options !
:drink: