PK and NB enigmas

[Antag]

Quite funny to look at some PK or NB and be pointed at a MM or HD  :lol:

It's an unwritten rule on this forum that if someone posts a "should I get A or B?" type question, that we recommend something else... :)

[Dr. Vic]

I used to have a Jackson RR1, it was back to 1993, it was before the Fender invasion in Fort Worth, Texas...
Mine was an absolute blast. She camed with the 500-L and 500-XL as standard. I just put a SH1 on the neck instead of the 500-L. And she was awesome. I miss her 

Anyway you seem to be a whole sample-library by yourself  :lol:
I like your sound with the HD on the RR1. Incredibly more thick and less dry than the one you have with your KV2 with the PK and still agressive. But I do not know if your mesa and / or Engl head are not a lot part of it (As for me I play a Marshall JCM2000 DSL 401 combo).

And there is a lack of some tightness in the bass for my personal tastes. 

Quite funny to look at some PK or NB and be pointed at a MM or HD  :lol:

It's an unwritten rule on this forum that if someone posts a "should I get A or B?" type question, that we recommend something else... :)

I expected that the BKP forum rule you mention would also have worked for me which is why I would like to stay in the « what-the-pickup-really-sounds-like story », in order to learn about pickup particularities at first. 

So Why a MM over a PK if you say they have the same amount of bass and thickness ?

And why a HD over a NB, if the NB is more agressive ? Do you have NB clips as well that would show the agressive mids I am looking for ? If you say Yes, then I'll call you « Virgin Megastore » or « Amazon » if you prefer  :D. 

[dheim]

maybe i already said that, you know, i'm getting old and i've just finished probing asses (i'm not a sodomite, just a surgeon... ;)), but i tink that the NB could be seen as a nastier, middier and brighter JB...

[Dr. Vic]

Not sure it is necessary in your life to be a surgeon to catch the asses your after, anyway....  :orcass:

Back to pickups : As I am telling from the beginning I trust you all guys when you say the NB is nasty and middy and aggressive, just would like to be sure this one is really able to kick bad asses, with a REAL bite and REAL aggressivity. To me the leads (where the NB seems to be at his best) are really fluids and the rythm stuff are always warm, some say tight enough, depending on how fast you like you chugga things, the choards are fat, BUT never, to me, aggressive (compared to the RY and the PK), from what I've heard at the moment...

But I am waiting for Antag to come back with some new samples !! :D

Oh and I forgot to tell you, I cannot explain why, but I find this chick more pleasant to look at than the other one. Maybe I need to create a topic to let people vote for the best one !  :lol:   

[dheim]

are you talking about miss emilie autumn?
yes, she's definitely hot. :)

[Antag]

Sorry, I don't have any Nailbomb clips - never recorded any because there are so many on the forum already (FWIW, the reason I recorded so many Holy Diver clips is that I was one of the first on this forum to really rave about the HD & there were no clips of it at all at the time.  Plus it's by far my favourite :))

Why I think the NB is described as "aggressive" is the scything ripping upper mids & the dynamic response.  For some reason, when I play a NB under really high gain I find my self wanting to hit the strings really hard, shout "raaaaahhhhh" & headbutt the wall :twisted:

If it helps, we discussed the differences between HD/NB here

[Dr. Vic]

Nice to hear back from you. Reading what you said I was thinking the NB will be very addictive to play with  :D

I knew about this HD/NB topic and there is another one somewhere (I don't know how to put the link) called « Nailbomb vs holydiver ». In this one we have Eric Hellstyle explaining the NB is a « ninja » whereas the HD is a « samouraļ ».   :lol:  Very funny to look at but more seriously, also very demonstrative...

Anyway you absolutely spot it  : I am looking for this upper mid cut because imo that is what gives you aggressive bite AND the in-your-faceness of your sound. And because the NB is told to have this upper mid cut,  that's why I was tempted to say at the beginning to this topic that the NB might have some PK voice in it, also called « british voice ». 

THAT SAID, I cannot hear it from the clips I've heard. They all are beautiful, especially the one of The Man (Of course 8)), but also the others like the ones from Derya Nagle that are on the same vibe, for instance « pastel shade » and of course « september solo » which is absolutely stunning. BUT the upper mid cut described before just doesn't show (nothing ripping here. To me, of course).

If someone could point me to a NB clip that is very demonstrative on this field I would really appreciate.   

And may I ask you guys again why you and MDV are suggesting a MM over a PK ?
and a HD over the NB, if the NB is expected to me more agressive ?

what would be the altenative to the HD if as I told you I would find it more tasty with a twist of more tightness + more bite ?

[ericsabbath]

ok, I'm in  :lol:
lot of info
let's see

About the PK :

The PK is told to be thin (or dry sounding) and because it is VERY bright it better has to go in dark sounding guitars. It's voice is often associated to old metal school, especially old Mustaine sound (Peace Sells, Rust in Peace, Countdown to extinction) which is very precise, crunchy, agressive and tight but it's true rather sharp than thick or meaty.

BUT THAT SAID, on the other hand, I read some posts stating that the PK is very fat and full sounding, fat with a fat ceramic magnet, fat with lots of bass and a huge bottom end. I also read that the PK has more bass than the MM   :gne:!!  For instance I read that the Painkiller seems to have the miracle man tightness with a fatter sound with more bass response and biting treble.

These statements are quite opposite to me, maybe it is just a question of language, but where is the truth ? :wallbash:
Is the PK thin (dry) or thick (fat) ?
Isn't the voice of the MM more powerfull and thick for fast rythm tracks ?
And what do you guys call a « huge bottom end » ?
And if the PK has this old school metal vibe, why do people say it is modern sounding ?

the painkiller is not thin
it has a really vast and full range of frequencies, but definitely more midrange specifically
it can sound dry, cause it's low end end is punchy, but really tight, with a "tchenk tchenk" effect on palm mutes, but the mids are full and the highs aren't ice picky or harsh
not a pickup I'd match with alder or ash, for example
it is fat and thick sounding, but doesn't have a big low end
it has nice and firm ass, but not big and bouncy :lol:



pickups react differently on each wood/guitar type, specially GOOD pickups
my holy diver sounded completely different in 3 mahogany guitars
in my japanese LP mahogany/maple top, it sounded fat, but bright, aggressive
in the brazilian mahogany (same species as the honduran) LP with imbuya top (that was a very dark guitar), it sounded smoother, a bit darker and more full sounding, but brighter than the miracle man in the same guitar
in my Gibson SG (which is a pretty good and really resonant guitar), it sounded way darker, much less powerful, and no near as good as it did in the les paul
now I have it in the SG, but with an alnico 8 magnet installed, so it sounds brighter, tighter and more powerful, like it did in the first les paul, but lost some of the depth and it's more dry sounding, a bit less organic

the braziliam mahogany les paul also had a painkiller and two miracle man (different pickup samples of the same model, I mean)
it had A LOT more low end punch with the miracle man than with the painkiller and holy diver
it also sounded a bit darker than both, more dense and focused
bit less organic, though, but it really matches that guitar
the painkiller had a better lead tone than the MM, but miracle man was much more punchy
the other ones sounded VERY punchy anyway (except a cr@ppy bill lawrence that made the guitar sound like a strat)

note that Mustaine used a Duncan Distortion and some Bill lawrence in the 80's AND he used mostly alder guitars in bright sounding amps, so of course a painkiller would sound bright and thin in the same conditions

also, have in mind that 90% of the pickups used by modern rock/metal musicians are the SAME used in the 80's
JB, distortion, super distortion, l500xl, emg 81, invader... and a few supposedly "evolved" versions of older models like x2n/megadrive, dimebucker/l500xl, 500t/dirty fingers

About the NB :


That is the pickup on which I saw the most controvertial opinions !!!!.

It is often said on this place NB has rather a deep, thick, extremely punchy/percussive low-end AND a very hot, open and aggressive midrange grind/crunch. And it's description says it all : « a huge agressive assault (,,,) with punchy mids». What's more I even read that if the PK was « old Mustaine » period, the NB will be « current Mustaine » sound which is still agressive and still tight in the bass. Reading that I might understand the NB as a less tight, more warm PK but still with a specific upper mid cut in its voice...a British voice !


BUT THAT SAID, lots of review (have a look at harmony central) are mentioning a « scooped » pickup :roll:, sometimes « muddy »   :(  in dark sounding guitars with an overall « smooth tone »...As for me (I do not want to receive « all the drama of thunder and lightning ! » from all of you guys  :rip:) BUT when I listen to Tim clip of the NB and the other ones, I cannot feel thoses agressive mids. I feel it rather warm, fat and soft (for the rythm chugga things) and fluid (in the leads). I make this statement while comparing NB clips at least to S. Steven clip of the RY (still A5 powered) that sound more agressive and biting to me and far more straight talking, with more « in your faceness » imo...  It just « seems » not to cut thru the mix, as well as either PK, RY or even MM (even if this one is told to have the smoother mids) ...



So is there agressive mids in the NB ?
And is the voicing of the NB somewhere close to the PK (british voice), of course with all the difference Ceramic / A5 makes regarding warmth, tightness, versality (though the PK is told to be very versatile too ?)
Can you point me to some clips with a great chuggy / growly / biting riff with some fast palm mutes ala « modern mustaine » to see how it tastes ?  :band5:

I also read somewhere that « the PK would be a DARKER and tighter alternativ to the NB » and I do not understand that : is the NB brighter than the PK ?  :stupid:

I don't have any experience with the nailbomb, but I've always seem it as the diver older brother (sheet, you found my retarded samurai/ninja metaphor  :lol:)

you gotta have in mind that it is an alnico 5 pickup, so you'll hardly be able to have a fair comparison with a high output ceramic model when it comes to punch, tightness and aggressivity comparisons
so compared to ALNICO pickups, I'd say it IS punchy, percussive (all BKP's are very percussive, imo), thick, deep sounding
and definitely a very middy pickup, like the painkiller
I don't think it will be brighter than the painkiller and not really comparable by any aspect, except amount of mids, maybe
totally different pickups (like expected)

[ericsabbath]

Anyway you absolutely spot it  : I am looking for this upper mid cut because imo that is what gives you aggressive bite AND the in-your-faceness of your sound. And because the NB is told to have this upper mid cut,  that's why I was tempted to say at the beginning to this topic that the NB might have some PK voice in it, also called « british voice ».

actually, what some call "british voicing", I'd call Seymour Duncan's voicing  
most Duncan medium/high output models are bright, aggressive and middy,  like mid boosted versions of the old Gibson models
different from the nasal and processed Dimarzios, for example
and I think Tim must be a big Duncan/Gibson fan, since most BKP models sound like heavily improved Duncan/Gibsons

the diver definitely sounds fatter, tighter and bigger than the JB, but not more aggressive
its upper mids and highs are much more rounded, "friendly" and smoother
the nailbomb sounds less thick, but more "hairy"

[MrBump]

I have Nailbombs in an alder superstrat, and I'd describe them as middy and smooth - definitely not aggressive.

When I talked to Tim about them asking for something that would get the smooth gain of Gary Moores Wild Frontier album, but also be versatile, that's what he recommended.

Mark.

[pagan7]

I have a couple of mahogany bodied Ibanez RGs with  calibrated sets of Nailbombs and PainKillers and while I generally agree with previous comments about them I'd also say that the NBs in particular have a distinctive organic "breathing" sound to them, especially in response to playing dynamics and pick attack whereas the PKs are more "present" and immediate, but both are far more than one trick ponies and tweaking the controls on the guitar/effects/amp soon opens up more tone and overall sound dimensions. Even changing the tone capacitor value on the guitar offers subtle yet distinctive variations in pickup response. Which is why my guitars are fitted with 3 way switches so I can choose between .022, .033 and .047 caps.
Both of these pups are superb but you'll never know if they are right for you until they're in your guitar in your hands and playing through your rig   ....so goodluck  :lol:

[MDV]

not a pickup I'd match with alder or ash, for example

I did. Sounds great.

[Dr. Vic]

Hum...

Lots of great infos thank you guys !. PDT_003

Some points still on debate :

starting from the basis :

my holy diver sounded completely different in 3 mahogany guitars
in my japanese LP mahogany/maple top, it sounded fat, but bright, aggressive
in the brazilian mahogany (same species as the honduran) LP with imbuya top (that was a very dark guitar), it sounded smoother, a bit darker and more full sounding, but brighter than the miracle man in the same guitar
in my Gibson SG (which is a pretty good and really resonant guitar), it sounded way darker, much less powerful, and no near as good as it did in the les paul

I would have thought that considering 2 guitars built with the same wood (mahogany), the one you find the most resonant, will be the one that allow pickups to catch more vibrations (and more overtone harmonics) and thus will be brighter than the other (a darker guitar guitar would be, as far as I understand it, the guitar that will soak up the most vibration and thus resonance from the instrument). But you said your SG is darker than your LP, quite difficult for me to see what is going on here.... :?




For the PK :

Then if the PK isn't thin sounding, maybe his reputation may has more to do with some dry-ness in his voice. You are good at these sound illustration and the nice and firm ass as opposed to a big bouncy one speaks a lot.  :P As I said previously, and while reading these 3 comments here after, I'm not sure to have completely understand what « a huge bottom end » is. I think this might be usefull to say more about that because this is still confusing me especially when speaking about the difference with the MM regarding it's bass power and thickness :

the painkiller is not thin (...) it is fat and thick sounding, but doesn't have a big low end
(...) the braziliam mahogany les paul (...) had A LOT more low end punch with the miracle man than with the painkiller and holy diver. it also sounded a bit darker than both, more dense and focused

Well, I've found the PK to have a bright, open high end AND a huge low end.

The MM has about the same lows (I've had MM, covered MM and settled on a double screw 23k MM), but more low mids and less high mids and is smoother and more compressed.

Isn't the voice of the MM more powerfull and thick for fast rythm tracks ?

No. I'd say the MM is more "dense" & "intense" wheras the PK is more "in yer face". 

Can you clear it up for me ? And why do Antag and MDV think the MM will be a better alternative for me ?
I really fear the lack of versality of the MM and cleans seems to work best with the PK too...




For the NB :

you gotta have in mind that it is an alnico 5 pickup, so you'll hardly be able to have a fair comparison with a high output ceramic model when it comes to punch, tightness and aggressivity comparisons
so compared to ALNICO pickups, I'd say it IS punchy, percussive (all BKP's are very percussive, imo), thick, deep sounding and definitely a very middy pickup, like the painkiller

I compared the punch, tightness, and agressivity of the NB to the RY (also A5 powered). As a result I found the RY far more efficient on these 3 fields. And this report we have here show pretty well the difficulty to understand the agressivity expected on the NB...

I have Nailbombs in an alder superstrat, and I'd describe them as middy and smooth - definitely not aggressive.
When I talked to Tim about them asking for something that would get the smooth gain of Gary Moores Wild Frontier album, but also be versatile, that's what he recommended.
Mark.

Any other thoughts or demonstrative clips of the NB would be very appreciated !

[dheim]

i am not sure if this will help you, but if i ever said anything less than AWESOME about the PK before actually playing it... well, i've been an asshole. period.
i finally got my ibanez with a PK set yesterday and it's frightening! i won't use it to play rock, that's for sure... it's a totally metal oriented pickup but it does its work perfectly... tight, aggressive, evil and NOT thin at all!

[Dr. Vic]

thaaanks for the reply Dheim. So you find the PK perfect...and maybe more agressive than the NB ?   :D

And You didn't find it having the most pronounced bright and/or dry voicing, at least compared with to the other BKP you have in your rig ?