Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: hunter on March 19, 2009, 01:55:39 PM
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I was wondering, some luthiers advertise with "hand made" guitars. But where are the boundaries, which processes must be manual so that a guitar actually may be called "hand made"?
Is the usage of CNC machines for body and neck sculpting prohibited?
Which processes are actually purely machine done on let's say a Chinese Epiphone versus a PRS Private Stock?
Aren't even on mass produced guitars many of the processes manual, just the difference is the skill and experience one has, and the attention and time one takes for the steps? Maybe luthiers should rather advertise with "built one at a time, with precision, skill and no compromise"?
What do you guys think of this?
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Maybe luthiers should rather advertise with "built one at a time, with precision, skill and no compromise"?
IMO that's what most people understand by this particular use of the word "handmade".
You're right that it's not strictly the best use of the word, but it's gained general use in this context & is less clumsy than a longer sentence...
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You're right- most every guitar is made by hands,
-it all comes down to how many hands ( 2, or production line),
where those hands were when they made their contribution,
how talented ( or un-talented) the strongest & weakest links of the chain were,
and like you stated, cnc vs. "old school": blood, toil, tears, and sweat.
cnc is a mass production staple, whether we're talking Fender custom shop, Gibson custom shop, or any place that produces more guitars annually per employee than there is months in the year ...
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I loathe the relentless use of "handmade" in marketing speil, since, in guitar terms, 99% of the time it's an outright lie.
Jonathan can call his guitars handmade, Doug at Black Machine can call his guitars handmade. No major manufacturer can (bar maybe Chris Martin, actually) If the bulk of the process is done by a computer, it isn't handmade, full stop.
I think the use of relentless photos of craftsmen in old fashioned workshops in guitar advertising is absolutelu shameless.
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i dont think it matters - but i appreciate it when peoples marketing includes some honesty about how they do it.
I personally cut every body and neck out by hand and carve and shape every neck by hand. I even used to do all my finishing by hand too. i now ship our logos to someone with a laser cutter and finishing to someone who is better than me. i may ship out more stuff soon
sooner or later i may consider having a batch of bodies knocked up on CNC - its a tool like any other... at the end of the day it comes down to the person putting it together, the material selection and the set-up.
so where would you place the boundaries if they did exist. would i need to be chopping down my own trees and carving a guitar with a spoon for it to be handmade or am i allowed to use a router and template??
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Like I said, if the BULK of the work is done by hand, I'd call it handmade, if the bulk is done by machines (ones you aren't directly controlling all the time, I don't mean saws :lol:) then it isn't.
Obviously not being handmade isn't a negative per se, but it IS used as a selling point, and most of the time, it's a flat out lie, and one that's often used to justify prices that would reflect the labour involved in a geniunely handmade product.
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To me handmade is "NOT made with CNC", in a pratical point of view...
But want to have everything literally **done by hand** is just unpratical and less precise than with some machines...
**(http://www.davistownmuseum.org/pics/tab1001_p5.jpg)**
:)
The biggest difference is the materials, Gibson will think about US$5 on price of each guitar, because in the end of the years this becomes million, a guitar builder who build them "by hand" won't care, if the product is better... At least in my point of view... would be completely out of sense make economy on everything on a "custom guitar", it's supposed and meant to be build with top notch materials... I wouldn't care much if I would buy a guitar from Feline or Wez and it was build on CNC IF the woods and parts are the best on market... My point of view...
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Like I said, if the BULK of the work is done by hand, I'd call it handmade, if the bulk is done by machines (ones you aren't directly controlling all the time, I don't mean saws ) then it isn't.
so it needs to be 51% of jobs done with hands or hand tools to be called handmade. Are we going for 51% time or 51% difficulty, 51% removal of wood done by hand/handtools. see, its still difficult to set the boundaries. it makes "hand made" a pointless marketing term.
I dont see the point in worrying about it. I like to know how a guitar has been built and who has put it together or designed it.
for me 'individually built/assembled' is more important than 'hand made'. That doesnt mean i am against batch production where more than one guitar is made at a time, far from it. It means i think its important that guitars are assembled, finalised and set-up by a particularly skilled person.
the reason i mentioned a router and template is because they are tools/machines used to help faster production... CNC is just a more developed version. It all comes down to the scale of your guitar building operation and whether its cheaper to pay workers to cut out a body or is it cheaper to get a CNC to do it.
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Most luthers get blanks cut elsewhere and do the final fine tuning, sanding and and assembely by hand. Thats the difference between a blackmachine B2 and B6, apart from woods and a couple of design features.
I know Bob at Legra does each guitar from scratch, now I know Wez does I dont know any others with certainty (save B2s, 7s and 8s) that do. Probably rather a few, but its becoming the exception rathat than the rule.
That said, I think that still qualifies. Right up to gibson style handmade, where there are 25 people, each responsible for one single aspect of the guitar.
I think the biggest differences between that and one man (or woman, but I dont know of any female luthiers) is that theres a man-with-the-plan. Anyone whos built something themselves and been part of a group each making different parts of one thing (anthing at all) knows theres a huge difference between one person keeping control of every aspect of a process, and taking a mental image that they have and making it reality and lots of people doing lots of much simpler little parts. The former has a clearer vision of a final result, and the job meshes better in the end
Plus, a single person making a single object of any sort almost certainly cares far more about the outcome and does it with more dedication that someone doing something monotonous and repetative. That counts for an unholy shiteload, in my opinion - the difference between the work of someone thats just doing a job and someone that cares about the job is HUGE, and much more important than distributing a workload or using more sophisticated technological assistance
And lets face it even the true 'handmades' arent - they're made with legions of tools. A bandsaw, drill press and even sandpaper are just as much tools as a CNC and laser etcher, so unless someones cutting down trees with karate chops, roughing out blanks with their teeth, routing with fingernails and sanding with 2-day stubble then its not really truely completely handmade, is it?
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I think the biggest differences between that and one man (or woman, but I dont know of any female luthiers)
http://www.manzer.com/guitars/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=7 (http://www.manzer.com/guitars/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=7)
(Not trying to be a smartarse, just for interest :) )
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Not sure I'd want a hand made engine in my car..........
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I think the biggest differences between that and one man (or woman, but I dont know of any female luthiers)
http://www.manzer.com/guitars/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=7 (http://www.manzer.com/guitars/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=7)
(Not trying to be a smartarse, just for interest :) )
Yeah but she builds girlie acoustics, no brootalz machinez :O)
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no brootalz machinez :O)
(http://www.thedctraveler.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/pat-methenys-pikasso-i-custom-guitar.jpg)
This is enough brootalz to me... show me it and oblige me to play and I won't sleep for a week with fear :o
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ellie erikson from over at the forum MIMF.com does some pretty fun stuff
http://ellieguitarstwo.blogspot.com/
there are a few out there!!
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ellie erikson from over at the forum MIMF.com does some pretty fun stuff
http://ellieguitarstwo.blogspot.com/
She makes guitars with that modern-weird shapes... don't like these kind of designs...
But I really like the girl she built a acoustic:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8dEqahvqXNg/Ryk_VEHNXhI/AAAAAAAAAHM/Bjn7Npp9l6o/s400/forum-da-eva--guitar-front-.jpg)
:o I definitevely would like her phone number :lol:
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i will say this, for the best combination of CNC and 'hand made' look no further than duncan at organic guitars
http://www.organicguitars.co.uk/
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would i need to be chopping down my own trees and carving a guitar with a spoon for it to be handmade
yes. actually, i'd prefer it if i knew you'd planted the tree too, and watered it every day etc. no non-organic plant foods to be used either.
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I dont see the point in worrying about it. I like to know how a guitar has been built and who has put it together or designed it.
It don't worry about it. But deliberately misleading advertising targeting the folks that do pisses me off.
By bulk, I guess in pratice I mean the work that transforms it from bits of shaped wood to a true guitar I don't know of a single major manufacturer other than Martin and customs shops where that's the case. I mean, there's barely a human hand touches a Fender, Gibson, PRS, Gretsch, Ibanez, etc etc until that hand is holding a duster!
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8dEqahvqXNg/Ryk_VEHNXhI/AAAAAAAAAHM/Bjn7Npp9l6o/s400/forum-da-eva--guitar-front-.jpg)
:o I definitevely would like her phone number :lol:
If that's your taste in women you would probably want this hot chicks phone number too?
(http://www.voodoomusic.gr/php/img/henderson_02.jpg)
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If that's your taste in women you would probably want this hot chicks phone number too?
:lol: :lol: Glad I wasn't eating then, I would've choked!
Surely they were separated at birth... that nose, that hair, that forehead....
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As the thread suggests there's no definitive answer, it's all down to opinions.
But....I would probably say it's now heavily used as a marketing term - used often by small builders who can't afford/have no need for CNC machines.
And the term's often used in such a way to insinuate that their product is superior to the companies that can afford a CNC machine..
... and I've owned far too many handmade guitars and been blinded by the superiority hyperbole enough times now to not pay any attention to it.
You can never stock enough un-obtanium when it comes to high-end products. Guitars, or otherwise.
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If that's your taste in women you would probably want this hot chicks phone number too?
:lol: :lol: Glad I wasn't eating then, I would've choked!
Surely they were separated at birth... that nose, that hair, that forehead....
uncanny aint it!
(http://www.channel4.com/video/images/mb/Channel4/video/clip%20images/Father_Ted/Father_Ted_001_005_001_001.jpg)
ah... g'wan Father!
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As the thread suggests there's no definitive answer, it's all down to opinions.
But....I would probably say it's now heavily used as a marketing term - used often by small builders who can't afford/have no need for CNC machines.
And the term's often used in such a way to insinuate that their product is superior to the companies that can afford a CNC machine..
... and I've owned far too many handmade guitars and been blinded by the superiority hyperbole enough times now to not pay any attention to it.
You can never stock enough un-obtanium when it comes to high-end products. Guitars, or otherwise.
Good use of unobtainium!
I agree. I've played some stunning handmade guitars (own one - Legra, another on the way, costruction is starting now), some that are just comparable with very good production guitars (my dean for example - its a custom shop dean, but its not setting the earth on fire) and have seen (and avoided) some really shite stuff.
Another couple of things that youre often buying into with handmade gear is bespokeness - getting it 100% how you want it, and the experience and skill of a craftsman. I mean how many people round here use BKs not because of the hype (which they no doubt have) but because we've dealt with Tim, and know his expertise and skills to be prodigious? How many people that got custom builds bought it because of the guy you were dealing with as much as the reputation of the product? (I know thats what it was for me with Legra and Bob, and no doubt is with Jonathon and Wez (havent had the pleasure myself, save on the boards)). Thats all part of the "Handmade" thing - whos hands are they??
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If that's your taste in women you would probably want this hot chicks phone number too?
:lol: :lol: Glad I wasn't eating then, I would've choked!
Surely they were separated at birth... that nose, that hair, that forehead....
:lol: +1
I think at that point it's called a fivehead!
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8dEqahvqXNg/Ryk_VEHNXhI/AAAAAAAAAHM/Bjn7Npp9l6o/s400/forum-da-eva--guitar-front-.jpg)
:o I definitevely would like her phone number :lol:
If that's your taste in women you would probably want this hot chicks phone number too?
(http://www.voodoomusic.gr/php/img/henderson_02.jpg)
Pah, she aint bad looking, and is probably 1000 times more interesting and fun than the pretty-but-moronic birds you pick up on a night out!
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And on the plus side this one actually looks like a bird! win/win :lol:
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Pah, she aint bad looking, and is probably 1000 times more interesting and fun than the pretty-but-moronic birds you pick up on a night out!
which one are you talking about? :?
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I dont see the point in worrying about it. I like to know how a guitar has been built and who has put it together or designed it.
It don't worry about it. But deliberately misleading advertising targeting the folks that do pisses me off.
By bulk, I guess in pratice I mean the work that transforms it from bits of shaped wood to a true guitar I don't know of a single major manufacturer other than Martin and customs shops where that's the case. I mean, there's barely a human hand touches a Fender, Gibson, PRS, Gretsch, Ibanez, etc etc until that hand is holding a duster!
I don't think that it's quite as simple as that. Certainly the process that PRS use involves a lot of human interaction (wood selection, spraying, fitting hardware and electronics), although the body and neck shaping is done by CNC... I wouldn't want to make any guesses about lower cost stuff though.
As Blackmachine's been mentioned, the B6 necks and bodies are pre-cut to his spec but the custom stuff is built from the wood up in Doug's workshop. ;) I think that he has a router template for the bodies but the neck on my B2 is definitely hand carved.
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Pah, she aint bad looking, and is probably 1000 times more interesting and fun than the pretty-but-moronic birds you pick up on a night out!
which one are you talking about? :?
:lol:
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I mean, there's barely a human hand touches a Fender, Gibson, PRS, Gretsch, Ibanez, etc etc until that hand is holding a duster!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T_tXP0W2zU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzxV1_ZGj4w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERV5E5uhLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRsr8QN-0BI
Lots of hands!!
8)
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Nice 'Seafoam Green' wouldn't you say?
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Nice 'Seafoam Green' wouldn't you say?
Yeah, but don't like HSS :P
If that's your taste in women you would probably want this hot chicks phone number too?
<--------------------------- OWNED :lol:
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Pah, she aint bad looking, and is probably 1000 times more interesting and fun than the pretty-but-moronic birds you pick up on a night out!
which one are you talking about? :?
:lol:
Cheeky sod!
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There is nothing wrong with CNC at all
It is the only way to go for any kind of volume production these days
Even Suhr guitars are all CNC machined
We use jigs and routers and woodworking machines but always guided by hand and proper "old school" luthiers would frown on that - you are supposed to just use a chisel that your grandfather passed down to you on his deathbed.
There are good and bad handmade guitars - it isnt always a guarantee of quality , although it is a sign of making a one off when dealing with small operators like myself.
Companies do like to use old fashioned imagery when advertising though - they will always show a senior or older craftsman in an apron and lots of old fashioned handtools and lots of curly woodshavings -it always creates what they call "warm fuzzies" in people looking at the adverts or brochures - a sense of this is how it used to be done and how it should be done
It is a bit like a major bakery showing someone dressed up as an old fashioned baker - putting loaves of bread into an old style oven - indicating that some degree of care has been taken over your white sliced loaf , whereas if you saw the factory production of bread-making you probably wouldn't want to eat it.
I would love a CNC machine to be fair , and a laser cutter too, and a clone of myself so one of us would have time to play with the machinery properly
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I mean, there's barely a human hand touches a Fender, Gibson, PRS, Gretsch, Ibanez, etc etc until that hand is holding a duster!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T_tXP0W2zU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzxV1_ZGj4w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERV5E5uhLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRsr8QN-0BI
Lots of hands!!
8)
Leo Fender was a freaking genius
He devised a guitar that could be assembled by relatively unskilled Mexican labour (therefore affordable in the 1950s)
There were clever people who worked at Fender, and a lot of the "unskilled" labour would over time become very good at what they did.
Forest WHite (Fender General manager) wrote a great book about it.
There is a lot of hands on contact - no matter what in all guitar making - even if just selecting wood and loading into machines.
The CNC is a great help, but it doesnt do it all without a human at all ....yet anyway!
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Totally 8)
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I mean, there's barely a human hand touches a Fender, Gibson, PRS, Gretsch, Ibanez, etc etc until that hand is holding a duster!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T_tXP0W2zU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzxV1_ZGj4w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERV5E5uhLAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRsr8QN-0BI
Lots of hands!!
8)
Hmmm, seems most of the work is rubbing. Maybe that's why people say there's a relation between Sex and playing guitar?
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I have seen how the Terada factory in Japan makes gretsch guitars. The rough stuff is cut by a CNC machine. At that point the neck doesn't even have a profile yet. The rest is done by hand. Of course they use jigs, routers and other power tools but I would considder it a handmade guitar.
On the other side of the spectrum there's my Squier CV Tele. This was made by a five axis CNC machine. The workers only have to bolt it together. It's still a very well made guitar.
Both factories use a Plek machine.
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Both factories use a Plek machine.
Good example. Manufacturers (e.g. Gibson) use PLEK as a marketing tool now, to say it's more expensive and more effort to use the machine, but the result supposed to be superior to the one that can be achieved with 100% human effort.
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Both factories use a Plek machine.
Good example. Manufacturers (e.g. Gibson) use PLEK as a marketing tool now, to say it's more expensive and more effort to use the machine, but the result supposed to be superior to the one that can be achieved with 100% human effort.
The Plek machine is a good tool
What it offers is consistency as all guitars will have pretty much the same settings and setup
It also means that the factory can use semi-skilled labour to ensure the guitars are all setup just right rather than needing highly skilled (and expensive) technicians. Thre machine will have been calibrated by someone who is skilled but once the program is in place, the "ordinary staff" can operate it.
It also looks great in the company literature and website etc - impresses potential buyers (and quite rightly so)
With enough cash and enough space I would have one, and a CNC machine and a laser cutter
I would use all three to enhance what I offer - wouldn't diminish anything I do, but would allow me a whole lot of extra options, and free up time once it is all set and running
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Not sure I'd want a hand made engine in my car..........
I would if is was an Aston Martin - the older ones have the makers name engraved on a plate on the engine.
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One can learn a lot on this forum.
Just Googled Plek.
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Not sure I'd want a hand made engine in my car..........
I would if is was an Aston Martin - the older ones have the makers name engraved on a plate on the engine.
I'd have an old Rolls Royce engine too, no problem :)
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Not sure I'd want a hand made engine in my car..........
I would if is was an Aston Martin - the older ones have the makers name engraved on a plate on the engine.
I'd have an old Rolls Royce engine too, no problem :)
What would be the guitar counterpart of that? A '59 burst?
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With enough cash and enough space I would have one, and a CNC machine and a laser cutter
I would use all three to enhance what I offer - wouldn't diminish anything I do, but would allow me a whole lot of extra options, and free up time once it is all set and running
Sounds like good sense to me.
I don't know why people talk as if using technology somehow makes the product worse. I couldn't care less if something has been cut out by a computer-guided laser or by a band of Tibetan monks using miniature chisels made from ferrets' teeth. It's the end product that counts, as far as I'm concerned *.
(* so long as the relevant workforce aren't being cruelly exploited in a ropey sweatshop somewhere)
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Does this get classed as handmade?
http://guitarsatbmusic.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9544
:lol:
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Does this get classed as handmade?
http://guitarsatbmusic.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9544
:lol:
That looks like I imagine my first attempt at building a guitar would look :lol:
Someone actually asked for payment for this?
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Does this get classed as handmade?
http://guitarsatbmusic.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9544
I read that thread, and it was funny, but I didn't get it.... did they buy the guitar just to rip the piss out of it?
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does anyone remember the guy that made the "superbass"?
that was hand made :)
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Does this get classed as handmade?
http://guitarsatbmusic.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9544
I read that thread, and it was funny, but I didn't get it.... did they buy the guitar just to rip the piss out of it?
Well, the builder (I use the term loosely) pimped his stuff on their forum, got called on QC, and basically kept repeating the line that he could build guitars that sounded better then any other. There's a lot of back story. Some forum users clubbed together and ordered one to basically call him on his claims.
The unfortunate thing is that while they did it for laughs there are other people who may spend their hard earned cash on one for real. Every proper luthier I've talked with has always been the first to say that they are always learning, this guy... Well, a cautionary tale I suppose.
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That looks like I imagine my first attempt at building a guitar would look :lol:
Someone actually asked for payment for this?
Around $1000 Aus. The case alone cost $115 Aus!!
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shiteecakes... that's worse than Gibsons QC :O
The whole thread is a good read.
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Sounds like good sense to me.
I don't know why people talk as if using technology somehow makes the product worse. I couldn't care less if something has been cut out by a computer-guided laser or by a band of Tibetan monks using miniature chisels made from ferrets' teeth. It's the end product that counts, as far as I'm concerned *.
(* so long as the relevant workforce aren't being cruelly exploited in a ropey sweatshop somewhere)
agreed. i just want the better product, assuming no-one's being badly treated.
which one are you talking about? :?
:lol:
Cheeky sod!
;)
EDIT: oh man, i knew devries had a terrible rep, but that one just takes the biscuit... o_O
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Does this get classed as handmade?
http://guitarsatbmusic.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9544
:lol:
Holy Mother!!!
My Ikea effort was better than that. And that was cr@p.
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Back on topic (and apologies for the derail), on pondering I think that one thing that can be considered is the single luthier working on an instrument vs a line system where the instrument is handed from person to person...
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My lord :o
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that truly was shocking. despite what i said about 'hand made' being largely a marketing term i do think it covers what i do.... and as a largely unknown guy trying to make a name for decnt guitars stuff like that scares the shite out of me. I guess i can be happy that decent photos and even the odd sound clip show i am above that.
I still want to see the email correspondence on that build, just because i do a lot by email and might worry if it matches what i say to people ;)
its people like that who will give us small builders a bad name and makes people think they are better off with a name they now
if you buy something from me for $800 i will still care enougth to make sure it plays good and sounds an plays good (or i wont be selling at all)... i wont be blamng you for buying an $800 guitar when it sounds and plays like shite.
truth is i set up a emily the strange Epi this week... and i had very little work to do. It was noticably better when i had finished... but nowhere near as noticably as i had hoped it would be. I even considered that with a pickup and hardware change it might be a pretty decent guitar
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Wez, are you drunk?
I dont mean anything by it, I am, but c'mon now - coherent and non-repetative sentences please ;)
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erm, maybe a little. it is 1am on a friday night!!
i am either drunk or a forum geek
truth is i am both but you really should get used to how my responses change on friday and saturday nights ;)
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at least you know me as a drunk rather than someone spouting bullshitee!! i always feel i know someone once i have seen them drunk :P
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and that was the forum adding an E rather than my bad typing ;)
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i always feel i know someone once i have seen them drunk :P
At least, then you know them drunk. :P
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erm, maybe a little. it is 1am on a friday night!!
i am either drunk or a forum geek
truth is i am both but you really should get used to how my responses change on friday and saturday nights ;)
Too right. Not mutually exclusive.
I agree completely by the way. Inhibitions the first thing to go. Neurological fact. If a persons cool when they're drunk, they're cool. Its the way it is.
Oh, I was criticising your english, not your statement or character!
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o dear lord. and i dont even believe in god. but that devries (or whatever) thing is horrendous. goes well with his attitude! makes me feel better about my work anyway!
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my english can be pretty shocking when i am sober... it gets noticably worse when drunk.
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I just like to say that despite the one or two examples of badly made hand mades illustrated in the thread there is a hell of a lot more badly made "production" shitee out there. I've seen basses where the bridge was so badly aligned that the E string completely missed the pickup, acoustics that were folding in half before they even got out of the shop, a Takamine where the bridge was positioned 4mm too far back, Epiphone Les Pauls where you could stick a 0.8mm pick in the gaps between the binding and the rest of the body and so on and so on.
I was a mechanical engineer in R&D for many years before taking up luthiery full time and I know that machine manufactured items (someone mentioned car engines; a good example) have the capability to be far superior to their hand made equivalents but when the pressure is on to get the volumes out the door to justify your investment compromise is a constant companion. The clips of the PRS workshop, which I guess were included to show that PRS are at least partly hand made, are a classic example. It's basically an assembly job with tight cycle times and machines doing all the "skilled" work. Even with the cheapest Chinese made guitars it is rarely the machine made parts that are at fault it's the design and/or the assembly; with a true quality hand made these errors are eliminated, admittedly at a price.
We're hoping to launch a part CNC machined model soon but we will not be referring to it as "Hand Made".
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I just like to say that despite the one or two examples of badly made hand mades illustrated in the thread there is a hell of a lot more badly made "production" shiteee out there.
True....but damn that thing was the complete opposite of any other quality hand-made guitars out there....yourself, De'temple, Blackmachine...ect.....the guy could've at least dusted it off :)
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Does this get classed as handmade?
http://guitarsatbmusic.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9544
I read that thread, and it was funny, but I didn't get it.... did they buy the guitar just to rip the piss out of it?
That's what I thought. So who's laughing? I didn't get to the end of the thread, way too big.
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Does this get classed as handmade?
http://guitarsatbmusic.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9544
I read that thread, and it was funny, but I didn't get it.... did they buy the guitar just to rip the piss out of it?
That's what I thought. So who's laughing? I didn't get to the end of the thread, way too big.
I think enough of them clubbed together to mean that nobody had much of an outlay , with the intention of bringing someone they considered arrogant and full of themselves down to earth.
Whether they succeeded or whether it was justified I couldn't say
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having read it all it doesnt seem like anything would bring him down to earth. he still insists its their fault its not any good cos they tuned it to e when its built to be tuned to d, played it through a diezal amp when its built to be played through a different amp (cant remember) and the fact that they're not on a stage with everything turned up to 10 on the amp.
also, having previously said what a rip off custom shop guitars are and saying that his are better quality for a fraction of the price, he then went on to say it was the people who bought it fault for it not being great quality as they only spent $800 on it. if they wanted a custom shop quality guitar they should have paid him $1500 instead.
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The clips of the PRS workshop, which I guess were included to show that PRS are at least partly hand made, are a classic example. It's basically an assembly job with tight cycle times and machines doing all the "skilled" work. Even with the cheapest Chinese made guitars it is rarely the machine made parts that are at fault it's the design and/or the assembly; with a true quality hand made these errors are eliminated, admittedly at a price.
We're hoping to launch a part CNC machined model soon but we will not be referring to it as "Hand Made".
Basically yea... 8)
I have two electric guitars at the mo, one is the 513 that I waffle on about all the time and the other is a Fibenare.
The PRS as we know is a CNC guitar made in a factory on a deadline whereas the Fib is handmade by three hungarian brothers who even machine their own hardware and is made with all the love in the world and doesn't go for sale until it's ready. On the face of it the Fib should cream the 513 in every way-but it doesn't.
If handmade meant you would get a better sounding/feeling guitar everytime then there would be no argument, but that's not how it works out. 8)
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The clips of the PRS workshop, which I guess were included to show that PRS are at least partly hand made, are a classic example. It's basically an assembly job with tight cycle times and machines doing all the "skilled" work.
That's very harsh and I would even say "untrue". Surely the skill is in putting it all together, setting the neck at the correct angle, sanding the neck and body perfectly flat to allow the finish to be applied and look "glass-like" etc.
The CNC machines at PRS cut the body shapes and neck shapes to save lots of labour. Then the skill kicks in to actually makes those into a playable instrument.
Are you saying the real skill in building a guitar is cutting a rough shape out better than a CNC machine?
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haha I think that Devries "guitar" has been posted on every guitar forum that exists right now :lol: Absolutely shocking.
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I know this is always a touchy subject Twinfan but the point I was trying to make is that you can train someone to finish sand to perfection in a day. You can also train almost anyone to do a one off repeat operation to a satisfactory standard quite easily; I also said that quality problems were usually in the design or assembly, ergo, companies without quality problems have well trained staff. As for "glass like" finishes if you spray a 0.5mm coat of polyester on almost anything you'll be able to polish it mate.
I was trying to be fair; manufacturing processes have to be boiled down to a number of simple, totally repeatable steps. To accommodate that you have to introduce machining tolerances and "design for assembly" features that you wouldn't necessarily adopt if you're making it entirely by hand.
As a development engineer and designer in my past life I spent many years designing things to make them faster and cheaper to assemble often having to accept compromises if they were deemed by marketing or manufacturing to be transparent or insignificant to the customer.
I'd hoped my post was a balanced view of the real world not a pop at PRS; I'm sorry if it offended you.
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Hey, not offended Bob :) Just discussing! :D
I think a non-handmade guitar doesn't exist anyway. It cannot be be completely made by a machine as far as I'm aware, so there's always a level of human involvement. I guess the term 'handmade' isn't the best. I think Custom Built puts it better, or something like that.
Sorry if I offended you, too!
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A theory:
I think properly custom build/hand built guitars have a lot of idiosyncrasies
Partly these could be seen as faults or quirks but lend a degree of character to an instrument
I was lucky enough to play Brian May's handbuilt red special guitar and it was a dream come true
But that guitar felt horrible to me, but had a uniqueness that was unmistakeable and I'm sure Brian feels that uniqueness too and wouldn't wish to play anything else
I have played a lot of great CNC made guitars that once well set up absolutely slay
Really well designed, and crafted (by machine - but who cares if it's that good)
But you could replace that guitar with any other that came off that production line and they too would perform equally well once set-up.
The trouble might be that as mega fantastic as those guitars are - they are replaceable and you might not notice the difference whereas if you got used to a handbuilt one, and tried another guitar it wouldn't feel the same - you might long for the original guitar