Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Trev420 on April 14, 2009, 04:57:27 PM
-
Ok so I applied for a spot on the BM waiting list a couple of months before the website went down via email. I have received no reply and am unsure as to whether or not I'm on the waiting list; naturally I'd apprecieate any info that you guys with blackmahcines can give.
-
I think the waiting list is HUGE but I don't know anything about it.
You could message Nolly, he's got two (?) guitars I think from Blackmachine.
-
Or Gooby (Martin?) from here - no idea what his connection is with Doug, but he seems to see/play all the guitars before they go out! :)
Roo
-
Or Gooby (Martin?) from here - no idea what his connection is with Doug, but he seems to see/play all the guitars before they go out! :)
Roo
He once told he is a long term friend of Doug...
-
I applied for this list along time ago to about 4-5 months ago? and no response as well if he responds great ill get one if not then oh well i guess! :D
-
uhm... so did i and received no shade of an answer...
-
Not hearing from Doug is par from the course unless you can meet him in person or talk on the phone.. he greatly dislikes e-mail. I couldn't deal with it and even though I had one of the coveted 2009 customs on order, I sold my deposit.
-
Woah, theres even a waiting list for recieving the waiting list :D
-
Doug really doesn't like e-mail! He's basically finished his backlog when he's done my B7 (scheduled after he got back from Musikmesse so it's DUE!!). The people who're down for this year will (barring accidents/disasters/etc) get their guitars on time, ditto with those going forward.... With bookings for the future it's probably best to call him. However there were only, what, 12 or so slots for next year and I don't know whether they're filled.
FWIW I don't like the phone so we don't communicate much!! :lol:
-
hmm...the man makes stunning guitars but guess he doesn't get stunning points for customer service :?
-
i dont think doug's attitude shows bad customer service at all, certainly never seen an actual customer that was unhappy. its a realisation that he cant make as many stunning guitars as there are wannabe black machine owners so something has to give, if thats his email response time then so be it - give the man a call!
-
I dont think thats good customer service at all. I think thats resting on your laurels because he knows hes got a "Name" and he'll get the orders in anyway, or worse yet; because he doesnt really care about his (potential) customers - leaving people that dont know his quirks hanging waiting for answers.
Thats just rude, IMO.
-
THAT SAID
I exchanged a few emails with him in two seperate periods about 3 or 4 years ago and about a year ago, and in his replies he was pleasant enough, moderately helpfull and invited me to call him since he doesnt like emails.
But that doesnt help those that dont get a reply at all!
(I didnt get one because its not really a custom - its a blackmachine, and I'm not buying into the hype until I've played one and can see (hear) for myself)
-
there's a luthier in my town (not cicolin, the one i usually go to and the one that's building me a custom, he's a very good and convincing seller... :)) that works for many famous musicians in italy and abroad. or at last he says so, and has got many autographed pictures to certfy it... ;)
he also works for friends, friends of his friends and people that come in company of other people he knows...
i have no connection with him.
and he made me wait a month for a fu**in' pickup change, he treated my guitar and my pickups very roughly, and lost my BKP box with included warranty... he said there were delays due to urgent works he had to do... y'know, people that needed their instruments for gigs and such...
i never stated that i used that guitar as a doorlock, though...
he's an idiot and will never see me again.
i'm not saying that doug is this kind of person, i don't know him personally and i'd never dare to speak in such terms of someone i don't know... but i'm not very fond of this kind of "inner circles", not just because i'm usually on the wrong side of the boundary...
in my work i don't treat people differently depending on who they know or who they are.
and, going back to the blackmachine topic, i can understand if someone can't satisfy every request and has a looong waiting list, but if he hates answering emails he should at least use a standard automatic reply such "thanks, you're on the list. prepare yourself to wait A LOT"
-
i dont think doug's attitude shows bad customer service at all, certainly never seen an actual customer that was unhappy. its a realisation that he cant make as many stunning guitars as there are wannabe black machine owners so something has to give, if thats his email response time then so be it - give the man a call!
Sorry Wez but as someone who's worked in customer service for years that is poor customer service, any business practice that DEFERS customers away is a bad one, if he has that many people trying to buy one he should start looking into expanding his business.
-
He has expanded. He does the B6s as cutting-farmed-out models (dunno if they're CNCd or not) with lesser woods and finishes at half the price of the still handmade B2s, 8s and 7s.
Hes just a bit overly laid back about it all.
-
i dont think doug's attitude shows bad customer service at all, certainly never seen an actual customer that was unhappy. its a realisation that he cant make as many stunning guitars as there are wannabe black machine owners so something has to give, if thats his email response time then so be it - give the man a call!
Sorry Wez but as someone who's worked in customer service for years that is poor customer service, any business practice that DEFERS customers away is a bad one, if he has that many people trying to buy one he should start looking into expanding his business.
He doesn't want to expand out of fear of inferior products. Or atleast, that's my understanding.
-
Sorry Wez but as someone who's worked in customer service for years that is poor customer service, any business practice that DEFERS customers away is a bad one, if he has that many people trying to buy one he should start looking into expanding his business.
quite frankly i think what we expect from modern customer service, and what we expect from small traditional craftsman are sometimes at odds.
Does doug even build guitars full time - is it his main earner? i dont know. maybe he should expand as you all suggest but does that fit with his lifestyle and is it economically viable? again, i dont know. The simple fact is most of dougs customers know what to expect regarding emails - if its a problem for anyone... well they will learn how to use a phone or they wont be getting a blackmachine, and i am sure doug is fine with that
Its not the way i do things but i can see the appeal. Just like i can see why bravewood guitars dont do commisions or deal with customers untill a guitar is ready to be sold. seems quite a ncie idea sometimes
now me personally. I try to answer every email within a day and i try to explain things fully and give people a few options. I do all this is my spare time as i work full time as a teacher/teaching assistant.
Because i am having a busy year with the day job, setting up a new workshop, orgainising my wedding and trying to deal with my parents affairs/divorce the first thing to go was the notion of deadlines for my guitars. In fairness the deadlines have always been flexible anyway, but they can cause stress i didnt want so just saying to myself they wouldnt be there was a load of my mind - and actually enabled me to focus on the guitars much better.
email conversations with potential customers are rarely short and things often need clarifying and quite often they come to nothing anyway. sometimes a 10 minute phone conversation is a much better idea
having said all this - the amount of personal service you will get from your local craftsmen will far exceed what any modern customer service ideas can give you. just be aware you are dealing with an individual who usually has their own quirks and ways of doing things
-
He has expanded. He does the B6s as cutting-farmed-out models (dunno if they're CNCd or not) with lesser woods and finishes at half the price of the still handmade B2s, 8s and 7s.
Hes just a bit overly laid back about it all.
If you've ever spoken to him you'll know that he isn't laid back in the slightest, or at least not in the way that you describe here.
The B6s, although I'm not sure who built them or how they were cut, were an experiment to try to satisfy the demand of people who were coming to him. As an instrument they're fantastic but I know for certain that he has a lot of misgivings over doing them again.
The impression that I've always got is that Doug has a passion that he tries to make some business out of, rather then a business first. Because of this he will be the first person to admit that his guitars aren't for everyone - he has a specific way of building instruments, and you're into it or you aren't. Any expansion has to be on this basis so chances are if there is expansion it'll be minimal as his interest lies primarily towards customs with unusual or exotic tonewoods.
There's a lot of hype over his guitars, most of which, if we're honest, is from people who've not had any direct experience. As a note I don't count the guys who posted here about waiting for responses here! ;)
I suppose that I'm biased. I've known Doug for a while (our bands used to share the same rehearsal studios a few years back), and can vouch, if that's worth anything, to the pride that he takes in making sure that his instruments are built to the best of his ability. I won't go into the ongoing saga that is my B7... although the potted version is that I ordered a B2, then was skint, then changed my order to a B7, supplier & other issues last year, and I'm now ending up with an exhibition piece... Then again, I said 'whenever' to the complete date so am basically the last guy on the queue until this year.
To the guys who put their names down, well, I suppose that phoning him is really the best way. Which reminds me, I need to.
-
Fair enough. I've nothing really bad to say about the guy from our exchanges. They were rather lacking in detail, like he was itching to get away from the keyboard, but he was nice enough.
Its the guys not getting replies at all thats prompted my more derogatory comments. My experience was fine, but this shite shouldnt be happening.
-
He has expanded. He does the B6s as cutting-farmed-out models (dunno if they're CNCd or not) with lesser woods and finishes at half the price of the still handmade B2s, 8s and 7s.
Hes just a bit overly laid back about it all.
The impression that I've always got is that Doug has a passion that he tries to make some business out of, rather then a business first. Because of this he will be the first person to admit that his guitars aren't for everyone - he has a specific way of building instruments, and you're into it or you aren't. Any expansion has to be on this basis so chances are if there is expansion it'll be minimal as his interest lies primarily towards customs with unusual or exotic tonewoods.
Alright, in fairness I can respect that concept, a passion that he is trying to make profitable moreso than an actual business....as opposed to a purely business standard of "a good business is an expanding business."
And your right about the quirks of different makers.....lets just say from someone I've worked with my expectations of customer service are high if I'm willing to shell out thousands of err..."quid" for a guitar, but I guess now i'm stuck as a lifelong customer doh....
-
BKP has got a hell of a customer service, for example...
-
He has expanded. He does the B6s as cutting-farmed-out models (dunno if they're CNCd or not) with lesser woods and finishes at half the price of the still handmade B2s, 8s and 7s.
Hes just a bit overly laid back about it all.
The impression that I've always got is that Doug has a passion that he tries to make some business out of, rather then a business first. Because of this he will be the first person to admit that his guitars aren't for everyone - he has a specific way of building instruments, and you're into it or you aren't. Any expansion has to be on this basis so chances are if there is expansion it'll be minimal as his interest lies primarily towards customs with unusual or exotic tonewoods.
Alright, in fairness I can respect that concept, a passion that he is trying to make profitable moreso than an actual business....as opposed to a purely business standard of "a good business is an expanding business."
And your right about the quirks of different makers.....lets just say from someone I've worked with my expectations of customer service are high if I'm willing to shell out thousands of err..."quid" for a guitar, but I guess now i'm stuck as a lifelong customer doh....
Hehehe, no worries dude.
The 2nd 8 string that Doug built, the first time it got put through an amp was with my Mesa. James (Diezel UK James) wasn't around when he rocked up, so we spent an hour screwing around. Great evening.
He's an obsessive builder, nothing else matters to him, including what other people think.
Seriously, the best thing to do is talk to him. You'll know how passionate he is then. He's got a shiteeload of quirks, and a certain 'you're into it or you aren't' view on his work, but he's obsessive about getting any guitar to a customer at his own level of perfection.
As a bonus, if you catch him on a good day Doug'll talk your ear off, for literally hours, about guitars.
Fair enough. I've nothing really bad to say about the guy from our exchanges. They were rather lacking in detail, like he was itching to get away from the keyboard, but he was nice enough.
Its the guys not getting replies at all thats prompted my more derogatory comments. My experience was fine, but this shiteee shouldnt be happening.
I know what you mean. ;) Love the guy but he's got at least as many screws loose as I do, if not more... but I work for 'other people' so that doesn't mean anything! I don't have to deal with randoms, the general public... yeah... not my thing. But, as I said, those guys do't pay me! :)
If you take anything that he does as an obsession that he gets other people involved in then that's about the limit that I can say.
I wasn't having a go or anything, just saying that from my dealings with Doug that he'd rather be building guitars then talking to people. ;) I've known him for several years... some days I'll get 2 minutes out of him on the phone, others it'll be 2 hours. :D
EDIT: When it comes down to it, either you're one of his clients or you're not. If you are, you get lifelong support. If you aren't then, well, you either going to be or not...
-
BKP has got a hell of a customer service, for example...
Yeah, which is damn cool, but ultimately it takes a lot less time to build a pickup then hand carve a guitar.
Tim is the f*cking man when it comes to service, no disagreement from me. Doug's product is different, very different. However, as a craftsman, The only pickups that Doug wants to put in his instruments are those built by guys who are as passionate about tone as he is - Tim/BKP, Hauessel, Lundgren. :D
-
yeah, tim does rule. whenever i phone i seem to get tim straight away which pleases me. I know tim is probably walking round with a headset to do that but its always good. In fairness i dont mind talking to someone else at the company but it seems nice talking to the head honcho when i am having doubts about some of the things i am ordering - even though i am sure any of the BKP team could give me just as good advice
like recently, i brought HTH's wide range pickup and wanted a pickup to go with it, before i had finished my sentence tim said a blackguard 50. i was instantly convinced. maybe i need to develop that clarity when i offer people options... but there are always so many and i do get carried away with possibilities
-
Its just unproffesional, IMO.
I mean Tim keeps on top of mountains of inquires, >200 emails a day, and still makes shiteeeeloads of pickups.
I've only dealt with Bob Johnson for extended periods, and his customer service is also exemplary, deals with a similar rate of email enquiry and he also makes superb guitars with passion and dedication, so guitars-are-a-bigger-job isnt really an excuse, I think.
Not that you need an excuse to not be in the elite, but just not replying to emails, especially for such a high value item, is below par, no matter what your idosyncracies.
I'm sure the guitars are superb and hes a great guy, but open communication avenues and ease of getting in contact are huge parts of dealing with custom stuff. He aint replying -> he aint getting that custom -> those people mention it on the internet -> people make their call whether they want to deal with that -> invariably loses more custom.
I'm guessing he's not in it to expand his customer base, but, regardless of my opnion (which averages to neutral or so - he seems alright and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that you can talk out a guitar with him in sufficient detail on the phone), its going to diminish his reputation, when everyones taken into account. Its not terribly wise.
In summary - He should answer his emails!
he cares about building his guitars, he should act like he cares about people wanting them - youre going after a 2k guitar, and its a big deal to you. I'm not saying eh doesnt all told, but not replying to emails makes it look that way if a no-reply is the only info you get, and you have no access to 'the loop' to learn his quirks.
-
I've only dealt with Bob Johnson
good for you,really that makes you very lucky and i hope you appreciate it. but from speaking to bob i know this is as just as much a problem for him as it is for doug. like me bob enjoys the customer input - but i think we both admire the approach where we dont have to worry about it and we could just build what we want - and obviously it would make us cooler and more desirable for not bothering to answer emails quickly
question for you all - are we actually shooting ourselves in the foot by bothering to give insightfull answers to your inquiries??? occasionally i think it might work better for me if it didnt bother and maintained a slightly distanced internet profile
-
I've only dealt with Bob Johnson
good for you,really that makes you very lucky and i hope you appreciate it. but from speaking to bob i know this is as just as much a problem for him as it is for doug. like me bob enjoys the customer input - but i think we both admire the approach where we dont have to worry about it and we could just build what we want - and obviously it would make us cooler and more desirable for not bothering to answer emails quickly
:lol:
Indeed.
Though, there was the 'for extended periods', since I've been round quite a few luthiers and dismissed a lot of them for reasons similar to (and one identical to, in rans case) the issues in this thread.
Too cool....thats exactly what it comes off as!
"Meh, I might make your guitar for you. If only I could click reply"
Its almost like dumble, where you have to submit a recording and prove youre worthy, cos he's just too cool to make stuff for anyone that happens to have an email account and however many thousands for an amp (/2000 quid they want to give him for a guitar, whatever)
I know its not like that, and I'm being faceitious now, but I can see how its that apathetic vibe to someone that doesnt get the sort of info in this thread.
P.S. I know how hard Bob works, and I do indeed appreciate it. Luck or judgment that I went with him first...bit of both in all fairness.
And doug does just build what he wants! More or less. You, Jonathon and Bob are busting your balls making every new guitar a new product from scratch, working much more closely with the customers, and Doug basically has a line that you can customise. I know fine well I dont need to tell you what a difference that is.
-
indeed - if only i could come up with a line i was happy building for evermore.
personally i like the variety those crazy customers introduce into the mix
-
indeed - if only i could come up with a line i was happy building for evermore.
personally i like the variety those crazy customers introduce into the mix
Wez, if you came up with one design that you could make nothing but and be happy, I'd be sorely dissapointed ;)
-
he cares about building his guitars, he should act like he cares about people wanting them - youre going after a 2k guitar, and its a big deal to you. I'm not saying eh doesnt all told, but not replying to emails makes it look that way if a no-reply is the only info you get, and you have no access to 'the loop' to learn his quirks.
Dude, I get you.
But...Until you know that by buying a guitar from Doug is about the same as adopting one of his children then that's it... ;)
That might sound really weird but that's what it's like. I don't know how to phrase it without it seeming bad in some way, but Doug has a lot of attachment to every guitar that he builds. And, with this in mind, he really cares that it goes to a good home.
I know that the whole situation is a bit screwed up. I bought my B2 from A.N.Other (shall we say) and the first thing I did was to phone Doug up and give him the story. He was a bit surprised, but after that happy the his guitar was kept 'in the family' so to speak.
The money, btw, isn't really the issue. The prices for the work on the exotics is actually quite reasonable (UK prices).
I'm not trying to push anyone one way or the other, especially with communication because, for f**k's sake, I've had the bad end of that!! I'm just trying to say that Blackmachine is one obsessive guy pushing his psychosis on to people who appreciate it. ;)
-
nah, shouldnt mention it chris.
did you not know that buying a guitar from doug should apparently be the same as buying one from argos. If its not perfectly in tune when you take it out the box ask for a complete refund, a new guitar, and some vouchers towards your future doug purchases
apparently thats what modern customer service is about ::)
-
he cares about building his guitars, he should act like he cares about people wanting them - youre going after a 2k guitar, and its a big deal to you. I'm not saying eh doesnt all told, but not replying to emails makes it look that way if a no-reply is the only info you get, and you have no access to 'the loop' to learn his quirks.
Dude, I get you.
But...Until you know that by buying a guitar from Doug is about the same as adopting one of his children then that's it... ;)
That might sound really weird but that's what it's like. I don't know how to phrase it without it seeming bad in some way, but Doug has a lot of attachment to every guitar that he builds. And, with this in mind, he really cares that it goes to a good home.
I know that the whole situation is a bit screwed up. I bought my B2 from A.N.Other (shall we say) and the first thing I did was to phone Doug up and give him the story. He was a bit surprised, but after that happy the his guitar was kept 'in the family' so to speak.
The money, btw, isn't really the issue. The prices for the work on the exotics is actually quite reasonable (UK prices).
I'm not trying to push anyone one way or the other, especially with communication because, for f**k's sake, I've had the bad end of that!! I'm just trying to say that Blackmachine is one obsessive guy pushing his psychosis on to people who appreciate it. ;)
I appreciate that attitude 100%
hell, I do some lowly tech work part time (just to pass some hours outside my dayjob) and sometimes I'm sad to see a frakking setup that came together really well leave the house!!
I get it.
I just think that it would be way better if he pushed his psychosis on would-be customers in emails as well! (reasonably promptly ;) a few days to a week is understandable. Not the elite, but youre busy, I understand)
-
He's an obsessive builder, nothing else matters to him, including what other people think.
Seriously, the best thing to do is talk to him. You'll know how passionate he is then. He's got a shiteeeload of quirks, and a certain 'you're into it or you aren't' view on his work, but he's obsessive about getting any guitar to a customer at his own level of perfection.
As a bonus, if you catch him on a good day Doug'll talk your ear off, for literally hours, about guitars.
Doug suffers with something that I suffer with too....
I dont always come across well in emails or IMs etc. but catch either of us on the phone or face to face and it's a different matter.
What will come across in a conversation then is how keen, passionate and obsessed we all are.
I also get a much better feel for what the customer/player is about from a proper conversation rather than an email
I have found that those enquiries that I only get by email often dont turn into projects (and some of that may be my fault)
But customers who have picked up the phone or dropped in to see me more often than not end up commissioning a guitar.
I have a mobile phone but I barely use it and I pretty much loathe text messaging as a form of communication.
However I am pretty much attatched to my landline half the day (thank god for cordless phones and headsets!)
You can exchange more ideas in 5 minutes of decent telephone time than you can in an hour of text messaging IMO
Also I bet Doug gets hundreds of emails from enthusiastic teenagers who have an interest in his stuff but dont have the money to have a guitar made along with emails from guys who are in a position to buy a guitar .
How do you tell who is who - it's really tough and you could spend your entire day corresponding with people who ultimately aren't going to buy, when you should be making guitars.
Also if you can only make 1-2 guitars a month that is only 12-24 per year and having a hundred enquiries a month is great in some ways but no use as you will be turning most people away.
-
Dude, I know.
My band's other guitfiddlist was pointed at you by Doug for fretwork/guitar $%&#up fixing, and we (bandmate & I) know that Doug wouldn't have pointed at anyone other then the best. It was a Carvin 7 string with screwed frets after an accident, btw. ;) Oh, and Feline fretwork is the nuts. I have an Agile 8 string that needs a visit!! :D
I have the recommendation after that job that the guitar now plays like nothing else. PROPS!!! I've played it too....
:D
-
Ok, this has gone too far
Who the hell TEXTS guitar commisions/ideas for builds to luthiers?
Or was that just an aside?
-
Ok, this has gone too far
Who the hell TEXTS guitar commisions/ideas for builds to luthiers?
Or was that just an aside?
I don't get that either...
WAT?????
-
Wnt 2 bld gtr. how mch 4 thru nck nd bks in mhg bdy nd 5 pc mpl mhg nck? ta.
-
Wnt 2 bld gtr. how mch 4 thru nck nd bks in mhg bdy nd 5 pc mpl mhg nck? ta.
Bwahahaha
-
Ok, this has gone too far
Who the hell TEXTS guitar commisions/ideas for builds to luthiers?
Or was that just an aside?
I don't get that either...
WAT?????
I think jonathon was just commenting on his hatred for texts. But the thought of it has tickled me.
-
Yeah, but I can just imagine some tard speccing a custom up via SMS.
Oh shite.
-
I think its at that point a luthier KNOWS they're dealing with a teenager that aint gonna get one.
Now I'm wondering if it has happened though...there are plenty of people dumb enough...
-
Thank fark I'm not a luthier....