Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: G9 on April 15, 2009, 06:00:50 AM

Title: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 15, 2009, 06:00:50 AM
Guitar's mahogany Ibanez S7320.

This is from my current Swamp Ash guitar, me playing a sloppy rendition of Rammstein's "Seemann" bassline. Pickups are stock, coil tap engaged, and settings are in the following order:
1. Neck, tone dial 10
2. Neck, tone dial 0
3. Bridge/Neck, tone dial 10
4. Bridge/Neck, tone dial 0

Amp is Line 6 Spider III 15, mic'd by Shure SM58 to TonePort UX2.  Settings have low mid and bass, high treble. Only effects turned is reverb.

Wondering if a Painkiller set, coil tapped, is capable of making these cleans. Granted, I'm using this guitar primarily for Rammstein-style Industrial Metal and Nevermorish material. Still, it'd be nice to have the cleans for those quiet moments. Again, forgive the playing. :oops:
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: Antag on April 15, 2009, 10:39:12 AM
IMHO you could get reasonably close to the neck sound.  Maybe not the exact tone but near enough in terms of feel & dynamics.  The PK neck is the only BKP ceramic neck pickup & the full humbucker is very punchy, powerful & "in yer face".  I find it quite a "hard" clean sound.  But coil-splitting gives you a decent useable clean tone.

Can't really comment on the mixed bridge/neck tones as I never coil-split the bridge & rarely use the middle selector position.

But here's an alternate suggestion: If you use the neck mainly for cleans (or to put it another way, if you don't need the neck for noodly high gain sweep-picking solos), then try a Cold Sweat neck (or even a VHII) with the PK bridge.  That gives you much more versatility...
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 15, 2009, 02:25:17 PM
Well, Ill be attempting plenty of sweeps, legato, and tapping kind of in the Nevermore style. Thing that comes to mind is the "This Godless Endeavor" solo. Now Jeff Loomis uses EMG 707s in both neck and bridge, but that particular segment of the song sounds nice and fluid.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: dheim on April 15, 2009, 08:45:17 PM
i've got a set of painkillers in an ibanes S470, and i love the neck pickup. almost obscenely.  :)
but i don't think you can really get that seemann tone with them, unless split, maybe... holy diver neck is closer, in my opinion.

playing was not so bad, after all!  :)
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 16, 2009, 12:53:53 AM
i've got a set of painkillers in an ibanes S470, and i love the neck pickup. almost obscenely.  :)
but i don't think you can really get that seemann tone with them, unless split, maybe... holy diver neck is closer, in my opinion.

playing was not so bad, after all!  :)
Mmm... split as in engage one coil only? I never got the difference between tapping and splitting, and parallel and whatnot.

Haha, thank you. :)
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: ailean on April 16, 2009, 06:23:15 AM
Coil split is using 1 coil of a 'bucker (so similar to single coil). Tapping is taking the output from the coil part way through the winding, e.g. after 3500 winds of a 7000 wind pup (or something like that).
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 16, 2009, 11:10:48 PM
Coil split is using 1 coil of a 'bucker (so similar to single coil). Tapping is taking the output from the coil part way through the winding, e.g. after 3500 winds of a 7000 wind pup (or something like that).
So I guess split is what I'm looking for.

So... anyone with experience concerning a split Painkiller?
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 17, 2009, 12:03:15 PM
Coil split is using 1 coil of a 'bucker (so similar to single coil). Tapping is taking the output from the coil part way through the winding, e.g. after 3500 winds of a 7000 wind pup (or something like that).
So I guess split is what I'm looking for.

So... anyone with experience concerning a split Painkiller?

 I have a split bridge.

I cant hear the clips though.

What do you want to know?
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 02:24:42 PM
Coil split is using 1 coil of a 'bucker (so similar to single coil). Tapping is taking the output from the coil part way through the winding, e.g. after 3500 winds of a 7000 wind pup (or something like that).
So I guess split is what I'm looking for.

So... anyone with experience concerning a split Painkiller?

 I have a split bridge.

I cant hear the clips though.

What do you want to know?
Mmm... I wanted to hear a split neck and a split neck/bridge.

Clip is attached to the first post, piano.mp3. I wanted to know if a split neck and split neck/bridge on a Painkiller set could make cleans as heard in the mp3.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 17, 2009, 02:25:48 PM
And I cant hear the clip at the moment so I asked....

matters not, I'll listen when I get home.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 02:51:28 PM
And I cant hear the clip at the moment so I asked....

matters not, I'll listen when I get home.
Ah, apologies... here's mediafire (http://www.mediafire.com/?1otbmdxqnmy) if people are still having trouble.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 17, 2009, 02:52:51 PM
No its cos I'm at work. (Slow day at work)

You'll just have to wait a few hours. (or for someone else with a split PK to come along)
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 02:56:01 PM
No its cos I'm at work. (Slow day at work)

You'll just have to wait a few hours. (or for someone else with a split PK to come along)
Dear god, my lack of communicative understanding is appalling.

Alright.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: dheim on April 17, 2009, 04:45:59 PM
ok, here i am.
and as usual i've overdone things a bit...

you've got:

PK bridge and neck doing an almost rammstein-unrelated arpeggio in full humbucker mode and almost split. almost because they're actually mixed with the middle humbucker, but the latter is so far from the strings that it works more or less like an hum-cancelling splitter.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: dheim on April 17, 2009, 04:50:33 PM
here is the same arpeggio in a mix with bass and synths, and finally what PKs do best...
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: dheim on April 17, 2009, 04:53:13 PM
i almost forgot...
guitar is a mahogany ibanez s recorded with a POD xt

mind that this way PKs sound way cleaner... with my live rig (compressor and tube amp) the bridge pickup sounds almost overdriven on clean channel if i strum a bit harder...
i realized there's some clipping in the full-bridge track, sorry...
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: gwEm on April 17, 2009, 05:04:48 PM
i would take the miracle man neck for the 'seemann' cleans, should balance with the painkiller too. its a high powered A5 neck, and nice for shred and cleans

agree that painkiller bridge would be the thing for main rammstein distortion tone.

although hard as mdv says, i do like the cleans of the painkiller bridge. regrettably, i've never tried the neck model.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 05:07:20 PM
Wow thank you so much for the examples...  :D

The neck "almost split" sounds very nice... not quite as warm as I want, like in the clips I had, but it had an almost piano-like quality to it. Du Hast clips sounds awesome... puts me back into perspective of what these pickups are really for, metal. And those are some very nice mixes!

I think I might just go with a Painkiller Set, with the neck being used primarily for sweeps and metal soloing of that nature. Unless one of the following does a better job:

But for future reference, if I do want those cleans what humbucker should I get? I've been suggested the Holy Diver, Micacle Man, and Cold Sweat but I don't really know the difference between those.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: dheim on April 17, 2009, 05:12:26 PM
i own a set of MMs but didn't install them yet. anyway from what i know gwem's advice is a bit strange... they're known to be the worst clean sounding BKPs!
holy diver neck is a bit scooped, very clear and percussive, so you should like it (i think it was me to suggest you the HD), cold sweat is warmer and smoother, it's a bit more like the PK than the HD...
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: gwEm on April 17, 2009, 05:21:32 PM
anyway from what i know gwem's advice is a bit strange... they're known to be the worst clean sounding BKPs!

my advice is often a bit strange :) (and sometimes wrong :( )

but its true the miracle man bridge clean isn't too good. neck is really nice though, IMO YMMV etc etc

edit: miracle man is my second favourite BKP set :) they've always worked in any guitar i've tried them in.
edit2: http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=11354.0 my miracle man neck 'what pickup' post
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 05:37:11 PM
i own a set of MMs but didn't install them yet. anyway from what i know gwem's advice is a bit strange... they're known to be the worst clean sounding BKPs!
holy diver neck is a bit scooped, very clear and percussive, so you should like it (i think it was me to suggest you the HD), cold sweat is warmer and smoother, it's a bit more like the PK than the HD...

When it comes to tone (and many other things) I'm pretty new. What would you describe the clips I posted? I felt that those were pretty warm and smooth, but maybe I need to check out the dictionary.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 17, 2009, 05:38:22 PM
I managed to replicate the tones quite faithfully with the bridge painkiller, both split and parallel (not series though, you've got no chance there), depending which part of the song, and my trusty poweballs clean channel.

If anything it was more piano-like, but no reverb.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 05:51:14 PM
I see. Well, I think I'll just go with the Painkiller set. However, when I go to have the pickups installed, what do I ask for? I was going to go in and ask this for the following pickup switch positions:
1: Neck Humbucker Full
2: Neck Split
3: Neck/Humbucker Mix Split
4: Bridge Split
5: Bridge Humbucker Full
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 17, 2009, 05:53:29 PM
I'd get that but make sure you get parrallel on both of them on push pull pots as well. Youre gonna like that sound.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 06:08:56 PM
I'd get that but make sure you get parrallel on both of them on push pull pots as well. Youre gonna like that sound.
Parallel for full humbucking? What makes that different from... "regular" humbucking?

And the push/pull pots... isn't that same functionality is switching from split/full as done with my switch configuration? I'm sorry, I'm really new when it comes to hardware.

I've attached what my prospective guitar has stock.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 17, 2009, 06:31:07 PM
Well, parallel is full humbucking, like series, wires the coils in parralel, so they have a much lower net resistance (1/4 as much as series), a much more open tone, lots more highs, dynamics and clarity.

Do it on both. You shall not be displeased you did.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 06:58:48 PM
Well, parallel is full humbucking, like series, wires the coils in parralel, so they have a much lower net resistance (1/4 as much as series), a much more open tone, lots more highs, dynamics and clarity.

Do it on both. You shall not be displeased you did.
Read a little about it here (http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/serpar.php) and here (http://www.musicplayers.com/tutorials/guitars/2006/0906_Pickups101.php#series)... it seems that parallel is affiliated with a quieter, "less hot" tone. That might be good when I go into split for the cleans, but for the majority of my work it might not be. Granted, some of the hum gets canceled out but still.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 17, 2009, 07:00:44 PM
All the hum is cancelled, its a fully humbucking config.
 
I find it difficult to understand how you can pass judgment on something you've never heard. Dont knock it till you've tried it!
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 07:13:20 PM
All the hum is cancelled, its a fully humbucking config.
 
I find it difficult to understand how you can pass judgment on something you've never heard. Dont knock it till you've tried it!
I just gave it a try on my S7320 that just came in... gotta say that I didn't notice hotter output from series, but did notice the hum cancellation in parallel. Still, I'd like more opinions on this matter, not that yours is invalid, I just like having numerous sources.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 17, 2009, 07:23:29 PM
Those pickups are the same as was on my 7321 - they're dreadfull. Pitifull difference between even bridge and neck. This is another ball game entirely ;)
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 07:24:43 PM
Those pickups are the same as was on my 7321 - they're dreadfull. Pitifull difference between even bridge and neck. This is another ball game entirely ;)
No yeah I realize... what go me on the quest for new pickups in the first place was because the guitar I wanted to buy had cr@p pickups stock.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: dheim on April 17, 2009, 08:05:23 PM
Those pickups are the same as was on my 7321 - they're dreadfull. Pitifull difference between even bridge and neck. This is another ball game entirely ;)
No yeah I realize... what go me on the quest for new pickups in the first place was because the guitar I wanted to buy had cr@p pickups stock.

but this is one of the best things about ibanez... you can swap pickups without any sense of guilt. actually without even trying the stock units! LTD keeps equipping every guitar with EMGs (unless you buy one of their low end models that are much worse than cheap ibanez)...
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 17, 2009, 08:24:34 PM
Those pickups are the same as was on my 7321 - they're dreadfull. Pitifull difference between even bridge and neck. This is another ball game entirely ;)
No yeah I realize... what go me on the quest for new pickups in the first place was because the guitar I wanted to buy had cr@p pickups stock.

but this is one of the best things about ibanez... you can swap pickups without any sense of guilt. actually without even trying the stock units! LTD keeps equipping every guitar with EMGs (unless you buy one of their low end models that are much worse than cheap ibanez)...
True. You can customize your instrument without qualms.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 20, 2009, 02:14:18 AM
So anyone want to confirm the statement about parallel vs series for the humbucking? Is too much heat taken out by parallel?
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: dheim on April 20, 2009, 08:24:16 AM
yes, they sound almost like single coils... but it's not an alternative to series, it's just an additional wiring option usually for position 2 or 4 of 5 way switches... usually ibanez have it out of the factory... my s320 has it, for example.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: gwEm on April 20, 2009, 09:37:04 AM
parallel is a nice option, much prefer it to split. mdv is right - try it!
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 20, 2009, 03:57:43 PM
parallel is a nice option, much prefer it to split. mdv is right - try it!
How are they better than split?
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: gwEm on April 20, 2009, 04:16:11 PM
parallel is a nice option, much prefer it to split. mdv is right - try it!
How are they better than split?

parallel is fully hum cancelling, and has a stronger tone than split (believe it may also be much louder from memory)

for years i used a parallel wired dimarzio super distortion for metal rhythm, had it permanently wired - didn't even ever use series. i got this tip from paul gilbert originally.

it still sounds single-coil-ish clean, and we could argue about the parallel vs series clarity when driven - but i think the parallel is clearer.

in the bkp range i only tried a parallel wired warpig. but it sounded really good! still thick, but not as bass heavy, much more manageable.

i've never been happy with coil split in humbuckers to be honest - it misses something. the drop in volume is too great too.

this thread makes me want to wire a switched pot to my painkiller just to try parallel out on it myself ;)

edit: my memory is hazy on the split/parallel volume level difference. but parallel must have sounded the best in my experiments, since thats how i left it
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 20, 2009, 05:58:32 PM
parallel is a nice option, much prefer it to split. mdv is right - try it!
How are they better than split?

parallel is fully hum cancelling, and has a stronger tone than split (believe it may also be much louder from memory)

for years i used a parallel wired dimarzio super distortion for metal rhythm, had it permanently wired - didn't even ever use series. i got this tip from paul gilbert originally.

it still sounds single-coil-ish clean, and we could argue about the parallel vs series clarity when driven - but i think the parallel is clearer.

in the bkp range i only tried a parallel wired warpig. but it sounded really good! still thick, but not as bass heavy, much more manageable.

i've never been happy with coil split in humbuckers to be honest - it misses something. the drop in volume is too great too.

this thread makes me want to wire a switched pot to my painkiller just to try parallel out on it myself ;)

edit: my memory is hazy on the split/parallel volume level difference. but parallel must have sounded the best in my experiments, since thats how i left it

I'm still confused as to how parallel relates to series. Should I just have it set to:
1. Neck Humbucker parallel
2. Neck Humbucker split
3. Mix split
4. Bridge Humbucker split
5. Bridge Humbucker parallel

Or am I missing out on the higher output, so you're saying:
1. Neck Humbucker series
2. Neck Humbucker parallel
3. Mix parallel
4. Bridge humbucker parallel
5. Bridge humbucker series

In the end, whether I utilize parallel or split, I want something that's smooth, clear, and extremely nice for cleans. And when we're talking high-gain, whether I utilize series or parallel, I want... power... for lack of a better word. If parallel has a "single-coil-ish" quality, I don't want it for the high gain stuff. I want good cleans, but primarily this is a guitar for metal.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: gwEm on April 20, 2009, 06:06:19 PM
i would go with the second of those options!
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 20, 2009, 06:13:04 PM
I rather like parralel for metal.

It can give you the clarity you need sometimes.

I wouldnt have said it has a single coil quality. I can see whats meant by that, but thats not what I'd call it. It can give some great metal sounds, especially leads.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 20, 2009, 06:19:33 PM
I rather like parralel for metal.

It can give you the clarity you need sometimes.

I wouldnt have said it has a single coil quality. I can see whats meant by that, but thats not what I'd call it. It can give some great metal sounds, especially leads.
Right... for me if I'm going to lower the output in any way, whether splitting or paralleling, it's strictly for the cleans. With that said, what's the better option? Parallel vs split?
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 20, 2009, 06:24:24 PM
I rather like parralel for metal.

It can give you the clarity you need sometimes.

I wouldnt have said it has a single coil quality. I can see whats meant by that, but thats not what I'd call it. It can give some great metal sounds, especially leads.
Right... for me if I'm going to lower the output in any way, whether splitting or paralleling, it's strictly for the cleans. With that said, what's the better option? Parallel vs split?

Well, mister I-decide-what-I-think-about-sounds-and-what-I'm-going-to-do-with-them-before-I've-heard-them-and-dont-listen-to-people-that-have

Both.

Push pull pots and a 4-pole-5-way can give you splits and paralels.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: dheim on April 21, 2009, 08:31:41 AM
with a 5 way and a miniswitch in place of a tone control (who the hell uses tone anyway!) you can have a lot of options. i never tried but it's actually possible...
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 21, 2009, 05:19:03 PM
Okay so what exactly would the setup look like?

I asked a quote from a local service:
1. Neck Humbucker Series
2. Neck Humbucker Split / Parallel
3. Neck/Bridge Split
4. Bridge Humbucker Split / Parallel
5. Bridge Humbucker Series

With push-pull changing between split and parallel on positions 2 and 4. However, I received a reply that push-pull has to affect all positions... is this where the mini-switch would work?
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 21, 2009, 05:59:32 PM
The push pull would affect positions 1 and 5. Put the parralels on those and the splits on 2 and 4.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 21, 2009, 06:48:09 PM
The push pull would affect positions 1 and 5. Put the parralels on those and the splits on 2 and 4.
According to the service, this too cannot be done. Only a mini-switch, as suggested by dheim, can accomplish this. I'll look into having both split and parallel and Ill probably be singing all your praises.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 21, 2009, 06:53:51 PM
Cant be done?

*Remembers has guitar with it*

Yes, can be done.

One 4-pole 5-way "super switch", two push-pulls. Like I said before.

The wirings something of a topographical nightmare, but its very much possible.
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: G9 on April 21, 2009, 07:07:31 PM
Cant be done?

*Remembers has guitar with it*

Yes, can be done.

One 4-pole 5-way "super switch", two push-pulls. Like I said before.

The wirings something of a topographical nightmare, but its very much possible.

So tell me how eaxctly does it work? Like positions... "super switch", what each push-pull does...

...and it must be pretty damned expensive, right?
Title: Re: Painkiller set capable of these cleans?
Post by: MDV on April 21, 2009, 07:23:02 PM
With magical powers that only 1930s electronics can give you. As soon as it passes from living memory, it will be lost forever, so complex is the art.

You are quite unreceptive to advice, arent you ;)

Not expensive: ~35 quid. A small price to pay for the sounds you want.

http://www.allparts.uk.com/4pole-double-wafer-5way-superswitch-guitar-screws-p-4038.html?p=product

http://www.allparts.uk.com/500k-pushpull-audio-inch-long-threaded-bushing-split-shaft-dpdt-p-1741.html?p=product

x2
 could do it the other way round, I think, but I know for a FACT this works.