Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: JDC on April 23, 2009, 01:54:08 AM
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I randomly got looking at rack power amps for no reason what so ever yesterday and now I'm wondering, what's the point, they are so expensive, if someone wanted a 100w 6L6 power amp why don't they spend £300 on a 100w valveking head instead and save themselves a small fortune
is my sense of logic wrong? there can't be a couple of hundred quids worth of difference in tone from a power amp to justify the additional cost?
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Some of the difference will be economies of scale, you just won't produce as many rack units as free standing combos / heads.
The other big factor is the componants used. You can bet that the output transformer in a valveking will be lower spec then one found in a rack mount unit, and that's probably true for all of the componants. (And more expensive amps)
And lastly they can get away with it. That's an important factor :)
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I don't find them expensive, got a new 2502 for 699, a proper VHT head would be 1500+, and then it would be mono.
You could also say why are heads so expensive, a SLO100 costs 4,000.
Just a matter of quality. And then in the lower ranges there are EOS a topic too indeed, as someone before mentioned.
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I suppose in comparison with the amp head it is taken from or the average price of the brand it's from, it comes out cheap.
And once you have a power amp, you basically have endless varieties in amp sounds, it all depends on the preamps, etc.
So if you think of a proper VHT or Mesa Boogie, then take the poweramp out and stick it with something else, you've sometimes gotten the exact sound you want rather than buy a Mesa Boogie and tweaked it to as close as you can get.
Now I'm just waffling.
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I randomly got looking at rack power amps for no reason what so ever yesterday and now I'm wondering, what's the point, they are so expensive, if someone wanted a 100w 6L6 power amp why don't they spend £300 on a 100w valveking head instead and save themselves a small fortune
is my sense of logic wrong? there can't be a couple of hundred quids worth of difference in tone from a power amp to justify the additional cost?
Several reasons for this:
1) The power amp contains all the expensive bits in an amp.
2) As stated above economy of scale. This has a huge effect on price. Look at the price of new cars compared to a high end guitar.
3) Rack gear is really aimed at the professional market, so a higher standard of build is required. Pro equipment needs to be more reliable than "domestic" amps.
4) A consequence of 3) is that the individual parts are more expensive. Transformers were mentioned. These (should be!) the most expensive part in a valve amp. Compare the size of the transformers in a Peavey amp with other brands on the market and you will see where money has been saved. Even items like the rack enclosure will cost more than the amp sleeve and chassis on the Peavey. This is beacuse it has to support the weight of the amp when in the rack.
I always it ironic that on this forum, where the benefits of spending £190 on a pair of humbuckers is seen as worthwhile (and don't get me wrong here I have always been very impressed with all the BKPs I have tried and often recommend them), that people object to paying more than £300 for a whole amp!!
Transformers contain more expensive parts than pickups, are more difficult to wind, have to pass very strict safety standards (which costs more money) and have a very significant influence not just on tone but on the reliability of you equipment.
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I randomly got looking at rack power amps for no reason what so ever yesterday and now I'm wondering, what's the point, they are so expensive, if someone wanted a 100w 6L6 power amp why don't they spend £300 on a 100w valveking head instead and save themselves a small fortune
is my sense of logic wrong? there can't be a couple of hundred quids worth of difference in tone from a power amp to justify the additional cost?
Several reasons for this:
1) The power amp contains all the expensive bits in an amp.
2) As stated above economy of scale. This has a huge effect on price. Look at the price of new cars compared to a high end guitar.
3) Rack gear is really aimed at the professional market, so a higher standard of build is required. Pro equipment needs to be more reliable than "domestic" amps.
4) A consequence of 3) is that the individual parts are more expensive. Transformers were mentioned. These (should be!) the most expensive part in a valve amp. Compare the size of the transformers in a Peavey amp with other brands on the market and you will see where money has been saved. Even items like the rack enclosure will cost more than the amp sleeve and chassis on the Peavey. This is beacuse it has to support the weight of the amp when in the rack.
I always it ironic that on this forum, where the benefits of spending £190 on a pair of humbuckers is seen as worthwhile (and don't get me wrong here I have always been very impressed with all the BKPs I have tried and often recommend them), that people object to paying more than £300 for a whole amp!!
Transformers contain more expensive parts than pickups, are more difficult to wind, have to pass very strict safety standards (which costs more money) and have a very significant influence not just on tone but on the reliability of you equipment.
Errrr, no we dont.
There are engls, diezels, egnaters,, splawns, bogners, framus, VHTs and, well, pretty much any high end amp you care to mention owned between the members of this board.
The rest of your post is true save I'd qualify the 'rack gear is pro' in contrast with a head or combo with the fact that so are many one-box amps.
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I certainly didn't mean to imply that all people object to paying for decent equipment; that clearly isn't the case as there are tons of threads on this forum regarding high end amps, guitars etc. (and pickups!!)
However, from time to time you do get the impression that some people's spending priorities are sometimes slightly at odds with what I would spend my money on to maximize my "tone".
I know from first-hand experience as I have occasionally have to deal with these people as customers!
The points I was trying to get across were:
1) If you think it's worth spend £190 on a pair of pickups, why do you think spending more than £300 on an amp in unnecessary?
2) Yes, there are very good reasons why more expensive amps sound better (and cost more).
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I know the kind of point that JPF is mking
Someone will spend £1000+ on a guitar , £180 on some pickups , but wont spend over £10 on a lead
Having looked into building or upgrading amps - or rather having guys do it for me , I have looked at the cost of components
And good quality transformers are HUGELY expensive
A Rack mounted TUBE power amp will have 3 or 4 large transformers in it (also why they weigh so much) so the cost stacks up.
Also there are a load of power tubes in there for a 50/50 or 100/100 power amp
And usually power amps are aimed t the mid to high end of the marketplace so they tend to be built to a high standard
I have had loads of power amps over the years and currently am overjoyed at my 10w MJW/Martamp one and my Marshall 9100 - 50w per side
I'm just lucky that Egnater don't make power amps (yet)
However there are some cool secondhand bargains to be had!
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I certainly didn't mean to imply that all people object to paying for decent equipment; that clearly isn't the case as there are tons of threads on this forum regarding high end amps, guitars etc. (and pickups!!)
However, from time to time you do get the impression that some people's spending priorities are sometimes slightly at odds with what I would spend my money on to maximize my "tone".
I know from first-hand experience as I have occasionally have to deal with these people as customers!
The points I was trying to get across were:
1) If you think it's worth spend £190 on a pair of pickups, why do you think spending more than £300 on an amp in unnecessary?
2) Yes, there are very good reasons why more expensive amps sound better (and cost more).
I hear ya. I agree with your point, in general, just that comment about "On this forum....people object to...." affronted me somewhat.
Some do - you occasionally see a passing n00b that wants BKs to go with his MG, but they're a minority, or learn quickly, and you get them anywhere.
That said, I follow the Golden Rule at all times - if it sounds good, it is good. I dont care how I get the sounds I like, or what the sounds cost.
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I think here are many people with average gear, because you can make an average guitar a great guitar with BKPs. Still much cheaper to get a PRS SE and put some Mules in than getting a '245 Singlecut.
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I think here are many people with average gear, because you can make an average guitar a great guitar with BKPs. Still much cheaper to get a PRS SE and put some Mules in than getting a '245 Singlecut.
Well, if we're talking guitars, I have everything from beginner gutiars to customs, and most points in between. And it is indeed because you can make a cheap guitar sound good with mods - I refer you to the Golden Rule :D
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I know the kind of point that JPF is mking
Someone will spend £1000+ on a guitar , £180 on some pickups , but wont spend over £10 on a lead
Also, straplocks. People complain about having to spend the extra £10 for that are dingbats
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for ages i used to use the rubber bungs off flip top grolsh bottles as strap locks. i used to get em free by pulling them off bottle in venues and sticking em in my pocket. very effective. costs nothing.
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I had a Marshall 9200 for a short while. When I opened the thing up it hit me right in the face why they're so expensive.
It's two damn amps in one! and weighs like it too...
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I had a Marshall 9200 for a short while. When I opened the thing up it hit me right in the face why they're so expensive.
It's two damn amps in one! and weighs like it too...
Yeah - eight power tubes , six preamp tubes, big transformers
I had one for a while - pointless to use at home!
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They aint is the answer all these are for home audio:-
Naim NAP 500 power amp £14395
Mark Levinson No.33H monoblock power amplifier $33000 /pair
Krell Evolution 900 Monaural Power Amplifiers $40000 /pair
The Chord SPM 14000 Ultimate Mono power amplifier £26000 /pair
Quad II Eighty mono valve power amplifier (valve) £12000 /pair
Several things influence price (some points always apply) in the case of amplifiers :-
How good do they sound (they may not cost much to make but if they sound better than anything up to £10k then they will probably cost £9k+ and be placed in a very nice box)
How well are they made (purchaser judgement based usually on tactile impressions and feedback from users (peers or research))
How much do they cost to make (what are the component and labour cost may change depending on where or how many)
How many are we making (economies of scale and return on design costs)
How much did they cost to design (research costs etc failed prototypes)
How much can we get away with charging ( usually designer related - names)
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I'm just lucky that Egnater don't make power amps (yet)
Dude, may I quote Robert P. : "Your time is gonna come" :O)
But you know it, you've seen the thread on rig-talk ...
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They aint is the answer all these are for home audio:-
Naim NAP 500 power amp £14395
Mark Levinson No.33H monoblock power amplifier $33000 /pair
Krell Evolution 900 Monaural Power Amplifiers $40000 /pair
The Chord SPM 14000 Ultimate Mono power amplifier £26000 /pair
Quad II Eighty mono valve power amplifier (valve) £12000 /pair
Several things influence price (some points always apply) in the case of amplifiers :-
How good do they sound (they may not cost much to make but if they sound better than anything up to £10k then they will probably cost £9k+ and be placed in a very nice box)
How well are they made (purchaser judgement based usually on tactile impressions and feedback from users (peers or research))
How much do they cost to make (what are the component and labour cost may change depending on where or how many)
How many are we making (economies of scale and return on design costs)
How much did they cost to design (research costs etc failed prototypes)
How much can we get away with charging ( usually designer related - names)
No point listening to MP3's on that set up!
Are most Hi-fi enthusiasts still into Vinyl Bradock?
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I'm just lucky that Egnater don't make power amps (yet)
Dude, may I quote Robert P. : "Your time is gonna come" :O)
But you know it, you've seen the thread on rig-talk ...
So true , so true :( :D
But I have to confess I am somewhat hooked on the 10w solution for home use
MY MJW power amp is great fun and I am so looking forward to my 10w Single Ended Uber-Marshall that Heavier Than Hell is adapting for me.
It is just great having an amp that I can use at home - still damn loud but I can actually get the level knob off 1 and actually get the best of the tubes
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Yes FG mostly but even the top end amp companies are producing several £k amps with MP3 interfaces urghhh. There are some very expensive digital music distribution systems and these attempt to put back what MP3 takes away but Vinyl is still the win a the top. It is a pity that as high end digital audio 192kHz 24bit people wanted to carry them round on low capacity digital storage so the music companies have never pushed them.
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the cost of transformers is certainly a big factor - I paid something like £120.00 for the transformers used in Jonathon's amp before VAT and postage. There were cheaper options, but you get what you pay for and this has been reflected in the amp's tone. There were also more expensive options such as Mercury Magnetics, but with the £/$ situation it was felt that double the cost did not equal double the tone.
hi-fi amps are just crazy; all the associated components are priced daft too - ever looked at Audio Note paper-in-oil capacitors? I know this is an extreme example, but they sell 3.3uF, 500v silver foil caps for £1320.00 (no, thats not a typo). oh, and you have to pay VAT and postage on top of that.
http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/cap_paper.shtml
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1320 quid for a $%&#ing CAPACITOR?
Thats ridiculous. I dont care if its made from angel feathers and unicorn blood. Thats too damned much.
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Well someone's gotta bleed the cash out of the millionaires... haha!
Looking at the price sheet i can see that the most common ones that I have seen in guitar amps are 70 quid a pop... jeeze...
Anyone ever used these in amps to you knowledge?
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the cost of transformers is certainly a big factor - I paid something like £120.00 for the transformers used in Jonathon's amp before VAT and postage.
What?
You didn't wind them with your bare knuckles?
I am deeply disappointed!
*lol*
But on a serious note, you pay as consumer 250$ for just a Marshall output transsexual (Mercury). So if you assume that the VHT transes are just half the cost, it would probably still be 100$ for the manufacturer, one of those, plus two OTs, plus tubes and high quality caps etc, plus the housing, plus margin, plus retail margin, plus VAT, Customs, Shipping ... man I can't complain for having received mine new for 699 I guess? Plus it sounds fricking great!
By the way, the VHT doesn't sag very much, at least not at the levels where I can operate it, which is perfect for the Axe FX, as I prefer to use the facilities in the modeler for these parameters. Means I can have a cranked, saggy Plexi or a super tight Ueberschall with the same rig, and it comes across with punch and transparency.
The Shiva power section might be of better quality (and it does have "something" that the VHT doesn't), but it's not That good a match for the Axe... now I am moving too much off thread here, sorry...
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the cost of transformers is certainly a big factor - I paid something like £120.00 for the transformers used in Jonathon's amp before VAT and postage.
What?
You didn't wind them with your bare knuckles?
I am deeply disappointed!
*lol*
ha ha, yeah - I have pixies in the black forest wind them from silk-moth hair and use metal forged in mount-doom :lol:
When you use a manufacturer such as Hammond for transformers they have such a vast heritage of winding transformers that things are repeatable and the tolerances very good. This means that I can predict what the finished amp is gonna sound like to a large extent and minimise the amount of time spent tweaking. I'm a perfectionist though and tweaking generally takes as long as the rest of the amp took to build.