Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: indysmith on April 30, 2009, 06:07:03 PM
-
After I got back to uni after the easter holidays I realised that my Edwards felt pretty weird compared to my Ibanez at home.
The action was loads higher on the lower strings than the higher strings, there was probably too much relief in the neck, but somehow i was still getting a fair bit of fret buzz.
For this reason I decided to give the guitar a bit of a set-up. I set it up according to recommended medium action measurements I found on the internet.
Gap between string and fret at 12th fret:
Low E: 6/64"
High E: 4/64"
and i set the truss rod with a bit less relief than before, but probably still too much.
This was rubbish. loads of fret buzz. I wanted to take it to Feline but it was a bit of a mission away and I don't have money to burn on travelling so I asked around and was recommended the Guitar Spares and Repairs shop in Birmingham just next to 'Reverb' (ex-Sound Control).
Me and my mate rob took our guitars down there for a set-up on Saturday, I was quoted £40 for a set-up (I provided strings - D'Addario 11s), and I thought that that seemed pretty reasonable so I went for it.
Today I went to get the guitar back. It plays beautifully - what he seems to have done is polish the frets, straighten the neck more and lower the action more. As you can imagine this did not cure the buzz. In fact the buzz is a lot worse than it's ever been on this guitar; it's not being amplified but it is annoying me all the same (I'm ridiculously anal about noises and vibrations that shouldn't be there). I know I play extremely hard and the guy that set it up told me this and said that playing like that I'm bound to get buzz even with 14s on it. I thought fair enough and figured I'd try to improve my technique at home. Handed over the money and left.
Few hours later and I'm feeling severely ripped off - none of my other guitars buzz like this. It buzzes even when I play lightly in some places. Perhaps it needs a fret dress, but being quite a high quality guitar and also quite new I wouldn't have expected it to need a fret dress so soon, but if it does then why didn't the guy give it one? The one thing I asked him to fix when I took it in was the bloody fret buzz and he's just made it loads worse. The job he's done I could easily have done myself in less than an hour and I've paid £40 for it.
The guy in the shop seemed like a really nice bloke, very knowledgeable, loads of business (about 3 people came in to this little out-of-town shop with guitars that needed fixing in the 10 minutes or so that I was there), and he came very highly recommended by a number of people (apparently he's the go-to guy in Brum for set-ups). I don't know what to think;
do I have a really odd picking technique?
does the guitar just need the frets sorting?
did I get ripped with a bad-quality job?
are my standards just too high?
is my Ibanez just amazing?
I don't remember any other guitars I've owned or played being so prone to fret buzz, so either way I'm going to take the guitar back in tomorrow and be nice and explain how I'm feeling.
What do you lot think?
Apologies for the super-long post!
-
If you play heavy, the strings rattle. Not a lot you can do about it.
What you may need is a medium to high action and a reasonable amount of neck relief. This seems to work best for me, as I play heavy too.
-
If the neck is straight and it plays smoothly , I would just raise the action at the bridge till it cleans up enough
New and newish guitars can need fret attention - the wood of the neck/fingerboard does tend to shrink a bit in the first year and as a result uneven-ness can occur.
-
take your action up or put some relief in it, low action and a straight neck is hard to get right without buzz
-
A setup is a very personal thing. There are guide lines but no rules.
The guy who's doing the setup should know as much as possible about the player. The tech should ask:
What do you like about the guitar as it is and what don't you like, what do you want changed?
What style of music do you play?
How do you play?
And a setup is always a compromise between playability and tone.
-
take your action up or put some relief in it, low action and a straight neck is hard to get right without buzz
Depends on where the buzz is
If it is mainly inthe low area - frets 1-5 more relief will be welcome
if it is frets 10-17 then I would keep the neck straight and raise the strings
If you must adjust the relief:
Take a marker and mark where the truss rod is to start off with
That way you can always go back to where you started
Also - shiny frets are not the same as frets that have been levelled first, recrowned and finally polished
They will feel better when shiny , but will do nothing for uneven frets
-
take your action up or put some relief in it, low action and a straight neck is hard to get right without buzz
Depends on where the buzz is
If it is mainly inthe low area - frets 1-5 more relief will be welcome
if it is frets 10-17 then I would keep the neck straight and raise the strings
That's usefull to know! Thanks :)
-
If the neck is straight and it plays smoothly , I would just raise the action at the bridge till it cleans up enough
I did this and I feel a bit happier - i just raised it by about 1/32" on either side.
There's still buzz but it's decreased slightly and it feels a bit better to play.
-
Have you tried taking it back and seeing if he would adjust it for you? I know the tech I took mine to is happily makes adjustments if anything is not how you want it.
-
I had to raise my action loads after the setup I got, it was just too low and didnt feel right to play. Does feel nicer since he did the fret dress etc though.. Still buzzes a bit but it doesnt bother me.
-
Have you tried taking it back and seeing if he would adjust it for you? I know the tech I took mine to is happily makes adjustments if anything is not how you want it.
I plan to :)
-
I had a problem with fretbuzz on an Ibanez 'sabre' years ago and the tech said it was best it could be and I had to live with it. After that I played with the action on that Ibanez myself and found that the way most techs setup guitars is to have the action low so it feels easy to play. I've found that although its easier to play with a lower action, the guitar doesn't resonate in the same way and the vibrations are choked. Consequently, I've learnt to play with a higher action and my tone is all the better for it.
-
i have my doubts about some 'pros' i must say... i think i do a better job than some of them myself on alot of things. but theres some stuff i'm still not confident to touch!
a good tech is to be treasured. not being able to perform a basic setup is a bad sign.
-
Usually they are fair enough and will let you take it back for a few tweaks as the neck settles, you could try that approach or point out that he has really missed the mark.
Not what you want to hear, but Feline did a (very!) little bit of a setup on my Gibson when it was having work done on it, and my other guitar (set up by the same person that did your Ibanez presumably) simply does not compare.
I am really quite convinced by Jonathan's work.
-
Are you sure that you read the sign right may be one letter was different
"Guitar Tech International - Bring your Axe in for a poo setup by our resident technician"
^
One letter can make a world of difference
-
Sounds like it needs a fret dress.
Is it buzz, as in high pitched fast and note-choking from the string vibrating against the next fret or is it rattle, as it the wide vibrations further down the neck bouncing off the frets?
The former can be fixed with a fret dress and you can reasonably expect action down to 1mm treble side, 1.5 bass, if you so desire, the latter not so much - only with tighter strings or raising the action (and probably increasing relief as well).
-
i would say eventually take it to feline when you have some money to spend. you can be sure they will do a very good job.
-
Sounds like it needs a fret dress.
Is it buzz, as in high pitched fast and note-choking from the string vibrating against the next fret or is it rattle, as it the wide vibrations further down the neck bouncing off the frets?
The former can be fixed with a fret dress and you can reasonably expect action down to 1mm treble side, 1.5 bass, if you so desire, the latter not so much - only with tighter strings or raising the action (and probably increasing relief as well).
It's definitely fret buzz rather than rattling. Does anyone know any good learning resources to do with a fret dress? I'd love to just learn how to do this stuff myself rather than being ripped off.
I've just added an 8th turn more relief in the truss rod, and I'm basically back to where i started now, except now it's a week later and I'm £40 down... I really can't afford this bollucks.
-
Yeah, fret dress.
If youre lucky.
It may be that the necks in at the wrong angle (so after 12 or so fret theyre still the same height off the board, but are getting closer to the strings). I've seen that cause these symptoms before.
-
Yeah, fret dress.
If youre lucky.
It may be that the necks in at the wrong angle (so after 12 or so fret theyre still the same height off the board, but are getting closer to the strings). I've seen that cause these symptoms before.
Is there a way to check if it's at the wrong angle? I hope it's not!
One thing I haven't mentioned is that the buzz only occurs on the low strings and it buzzes for about a second if i strum a powerchord on the low E anywhere up the neck. The high strings are great.
I suppose this could mean the neck is twisted too, lol.
One of my lecturers is a massive guitar nerd - I'm gonna take it in and see what he reckons today.
-
I know the guy in question and I've never had any reason to doubt his guitar skills but I guess everyione can have a bad day? As you say, you are £40 down and not happy, I'm confident that he will try to make it right for you with no more money exchanging hands.... I would think any professional tech worth his salt will have a limited warranty on their work? I'm sure he builds guitars too... so he should be able to tell you if there is a fundamental problem with that guitar.
-
Yeah, you measure it :)
Get a steel ruler, with half mil markings and measure the distance from the fret to strings from 12th up. If the action lowers as you go up the frets (it should stay much the same, or *increase*(doh!) slightly) the neck is angled back too much. You may have to guess a bit between the half mil markers. Human vision has a resolution a bit better than 1/10th of a mil though, so you should be fine :)
And get something with a hard straight edge, preferably metallic, so it'll make a nice clear clacking sound, about 3 inches long and go up the frets, resting it on a few at a time, shifting it by one at a time and rocking it back and forth. If there are high frets, when they're in the centre of the improv-fret-rocker, the fret rocker will rock (and make a noise if its metal).
If youre really unlucky it could be both frets and neck angle, but with the actions you've stated the frets would have to be visibly very worn, and to different degrees, for it to be just that. On reflection, from what you've said, I cant possibly know for sure, I suspect the neck, so have a look at it, and I'll be delighted to be proved wrong! (its a pain if it is, for you and whatever poor tech you take it to).
-
Also, I meant to ask how well is the nut cut?
-
Also, I meant to ask how well is the nut cut?
That wouldnt affect buzz when notes are fretted.
-
:? good point! Dohhhh
-
I'll be delighted to be proved wrong!
Good! :lol: From the measurements I've taken the frets seem to be perfectly level (no rocking detected anywhere up the neck), and it also seems to be set at the perfect angle (from the 12th to the 22nd fret the action only raised 0.5mm!)
Hmmm, this is a puzzler!
-
0.5mm is no good, no good at all :(
I had an epi LP (a zakk wylde one) in the other week where the neck was set in wrong and 22nd fret was 0.5mm higher than 12th (or closer to the strings, rather), and you couldnt get the action at 12th lower than about 2.5 - 3mm without fretted notes all over the board buzzing and choking. All frets were level wrt the board.
I levelled the frets above 12 relative to the strings rather than the board, so they were consectively shorter, untill the 0.5mm offset was corrected, crowned and strung up - I then set the action to about 1.2mm treble 1.75 bass and gave it only the very slightest relief, and all notes all over the board were clean and buzzless.
You've found your problem.
-
0.5mm is no good, no good at all :(
I had an epi LP (a zakk wylde one) in the other week where the neck was set in wrong and 22nd fret was 0.5mm higher than 12th (or closer to the strings, rather), and you couldnt get the action at 12th lower than about 2.5 - 3mm without fretted notes all over the board buzzing and choking. All frets were level wrt the board.
I levelled the frets above 12 relative to the strings rather than the board, so they were consectively shorter, untill the 0.5mm offset was corrected, crowned and strung up - I then set the action to about 1.2mm treble 1.75 bass and gave it only the very slightest relief, and all notes all over the board were clean and buzzless.
You've found your problem.
No no no you've misunderstood! The 22nd fret is 0.5mm LOWER than the 12th
-
Oh, right, my bad.
Yeah, I dunno now, I'd have to see it. At least its not that - its a bitch to fix.
-
Here's a clip, lol.
I've got the buzz down loads since I got it back from the shop, but it's still there on nearly every chord involving the E string.
-
Just a thought ... I wouldn't think that £40 would include a fret dress/ crowning although I think the tech should have identified the problem and advised you prior to carrying out the work.
-
well,
I have all my guitars set up by the fellow at spares & repairs,i must say ive never had a prob with any of his work,i have 11 guitars and he has set up and serviced every one of them,he refretted my early 80s fernandes strat a like and it plays like a dream,low action and fantastic,i cant recommend him highly enough,in fact he fitted my PG blues to my 82 Tokai love rock!
If you have a problem go back and talk to him.
Jason
-
Here's a clip, lol.
I've got the buzz down loads since I got it back from the shop, but it's still there on nearly every chord involving the E string.
Yeah,that sounds pretty bad ,indeed :? I wanted to tell you to wait until you could plug it and see how it sounds amplified...but,i agree,it shouldn't buzz so much,even unplugged...(Be careful with "fret dress",though;i had a bad experience with one,recently..)If you were happy with your Edwards in the past,i think it shouldn't be a problem to get it back like you liked it..Bring it back!
-
All my guitars sound like that haha. I always assumed it was normal to expect a bit of buzz :\
-
All my guitars sound like that haha. I always assumed it was normal to expect a bit of buzz :\
Rattle, yes, buzz, no. Theres no reason to put up with it - you should only expect it if you drop your action below about 1mm :P
-
Right at the start you did say when you got it back it played beautifully and the buzz isnt amplified! and youve since adjusted the truss rod yourself!,sounds to me it needs more than 40 quid spending on it..
all the best mate.
Jason :P
-
If it's only buzzing when you play E why not transpose everything to a different key or put a cappo on the first fret?
Joking aside, try to see the exact fret that the buzz comes from and then check with th edge of a steel rule to see if that fret is raised slightly, if they are exactly level it's doubtfult there would be buzzing as the relief and action would take the string away from the fret enough. If they are exactly level then try changing your strings. I've found sometimes that you can get a bad string that might of been bent slightly or damaged prior to install. The tension hides the fault but can cause buzzing.
My bet would be that just the one fret needs dressing. Nail file, wet and dry, masking tape and Autosol and I can get my frets level and shining like mirrors :D
-
Thanks Tom but I really can't find an odd fret... everything seems to be in order. I've returned the guitar to how it was set up when I got it back yesterday, and I plan on taking it back tomorrow to see if he can fix it up.
-
Its a shame when you pay good cash and are disappointed with the results. If I were you I would go back and explain the problems your experiencing to the guy and see what he says.
Like others have said it might need a fret dress but a good tech should have told you that when he initially evaluated your guitar and asked you about your playing style, string brand preference etc. I take it he did do that?
An alternative tech in the Birmingham area is Trevor Buck @ PMT - doesn't work for the store itself, he just has a workshop there. He setup all my guitars (electric & acoustic) and has done for about 8 years - so that's about 17 guitars to date.
When he takes a guitar in for service he will evaluate it whilst your there, tell you whats wrong with it (if anything) and what needs doing to correct it. He'll also give you a price and if your happy, then he'll book it in.
Hope you get a good result tomorrow. :)
FYI a fret dress/crown would be somewhere in the region of £80-90 so I'm pretty sure you didn't get one the price of your setup.
-
I know I didn't get a fret dress guys! The bloke didn't tell me if I needed one, he didn't even ask how I played. I just asked him to get rid of the fret buzz, and he quoted me £40 and proceeded to make it worse.
I'm about to go back and try to be nice to him... maybe something genuinely went wrong; the truss settled strangely? he knocked one of the bridge height adjusters down a bit far? he set it up with the maths but forgot to try it out before giving it back?
Either way I've asked 5 other people to play the guitar (not telling them I wasn't happy with it) and they all commented on the ridiculous fret buzz.
-
he knocked one of the bridge height adjusters down a bit far? he set it up with the maths but forgot to try it out before giving it back?
If he did he's not a very good tech!
I wonder if its not the frets at all but could be nut related.
I say this because I had an acoustic that had a buzz on the e string that I chased for months, first thought it was the frets, then thought it was the bridge being too low. In the end I found the string was too low in the nut and was virtually sitting on the first fret. Was my fault I'd changed from 13's to 12 and this particular guitar just didn't like it.
Another thing you could do is get a second opinion, ask another tech to have a look at it - without telling them whats wrong. And see what they say - won't cost you anything.
-
All my guitars sound like that haha. I always assumed it was normal to expect a bit of buzz :\
Dude what are you playing? Not even my dirt cheap squires have any buzz!
-
Rattle, yes, buzz, no.
Whats the difference?
Dude what are you playing? Not even my dirt cheap squires have any buzz!
Epiphone LP Custom and a Pearl LP Custom. They both have it, the Pearl did after a setup but I just thought it was normal to have a bit so didnt bother with it haha. Maybe I should get it set up by someone else (though there only seems to be one tech guy in my area).
-
he knocked one of the bridge height adjusters down a bit far? he set it up with the maths but forgot to try it out before giving it back?
If he did he's not a very good tech!
I wonder if its not the frets at all but could be nut related.
No no no
Wont be the nut causing buzz higher up the neck
The nut is no longer a factor past the first fret , other than a too high nut causing the feel of the neck to be wrong
Indy - hurry along to see the tech to see what can be done
All this discussion of various opinions is maybe clouding the issue and misleading as far as your guitar is concerned
I dont see that a neck angle issue is a factor as long as you can get the action right via the TOM bridge
Tech needs to be looking for a hump at the end of the neck, or unevenness in the fretting (testing 3 frets at a time)
-
Rattle, yes, buzz, no.
Whats the difference?
Dude what are you playing? Not even my dirt cheap squires have any buzz!
Epiphone LP Custom and a Pearl LP Custom. They both have it, the Pearl did after a setup but I just thought it was normal to have a bit so didnt bother with it haha. Maybe I should get it set up by someone else (though there only seems to be one tech guy in my area).
I suppose I didnt use very clear language
Sometimes strings vibrate against and if severe choke out on the next fret
Sometimes, well, often really, the wide vibration right in the middle of the string (when fretted as well, think of it as a shorter string and look for the middle) bounces against the frets.
I was calling the former buzz and the latter rattle. You can get one without the other, they arent the same thing.
-
I took it back and he was very cool - he took it out back, twiddled for a while and gave it back, I still wasn't happy so he had another go. The buzz has reduced a lot now, and I can play chords without it which is a bonus but it does come back if i play really hard.
Joe (that's the guy's name) says that that's to be expected, especially with my playing style. However, he said if it's still a problem for me to come back in a couple of days and we can play with different string guages and setups. He also said that some of the problem may come from my preference for winding the strings the wrong way through the tailpiece, which makes sense as it reduces tension, and he said that I probably won't be able to make a LP style guitar as buzz free as my Ibanez due to the shorter scale length, which also makes sense. Apparently he'd checked the neck and frets and they were fine.
All in all he seems very open, helpful and knowledgeable. A good 'return' experience.
Oh, and Rob got his guitar back and he's very happy with it (13s on a Fender Tornado GT HH downtuned to C standard :lol: )
-
Nice positive outcome :D
-
Good stuff. Any idea what the problem was?
-
Action was just too low for how I play! (I hold the plectrum with thumb, forefinger and middle finger and really dig in, and I think he'd set it for a rather 'light' player... :lol: ) I think I might try restringing the guitar the normal way and with thicker strings though. I used to have 13s on this guitar and there was no buzz (unsurprisingly!).
-
If you're going up 2 string gauges it might need tweaking again.
-
If you're going up 2 string gauges it might need tweaking again.
I know - but Joe said he'd sort it for me, although I don't think I'll need him to - I'm pretty competent at setting up my own guitars now, lol.
-
Indy - gld it got sorted and the tech was cool with it
Also sounds like you learnt a couple of useful things too
What the tech said sounds very sensible to my ears