Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Denim n Leather on May 29, 2009, 04:45:58 AM
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I was talking with a friend today, who happens to be a great guitarist currently playing on Broadway, about the various bits of "boutique" and "high end" gear we use to get our respective tones. The conversation went along the lines of ...
What are Bare Knuckle pickups?
Oh, they are these amazing PAF replicas ...
What is a Splawn?
Oh, it's an amazing plexi/JCM 800 replica ...
What is a Power Screamer?
Oh, it's this great Tube Screamer replica ...
... and it got me to thinking:
As guitarists, we spend decades chasing after the so-called Holy Grail called tone and when push comes to shove, 99% of the boutique or high end market is the providence of clones and sound-alikes, or at the very least, sounds eerily close to's.
For example, in my current rig I use:
Agile guitars, basically Les Paul clones. I use them because I have convinced myself that they are better to use than an actual Les Paul.
Splawn amplifier, basically a Marshall clone. I use this because I have convinced myself that it is better to use than an actual Marshall.
Scumback speakers, basically a Prerolla clone. I use this because I have convinced myself that it is better to use than an actual Prerolla loudspeaker.
Bare Knuckle pickups, basically PAF clones. I use them because I have convinced myself that they are better to use than an actual PAF, original Gibson, DiMarzio, or Seymour Duncan pickup. Or even stock pickups.
Hartman Tommy Bolin fuzz, basically a Sam Ash fuzz clone. I use this because I have convinced myself that it is better than an actual Sam Ash fuzz.
...
and the list can go on and on.
The reasons why I feel each of these pieces is better than an original is irrelevant. I can conjure up 'facts', reasons, excuses, etc all day long (cost, tone, etc etc). The only area I can see where playing a replica scores over an actual vintage piece of kit is in the area of reliability, especially if you're gigging (old stuff tends to break).
So, I open it up to you guys --- where do you draw the line? Where does a so-called boutique product hold its own against the original for you, and where do you draw the line/get off the train? Does replicating a classic sound even hold any merit to you, or are you tired of the guitar industry constantly dragging the 1960s around like a millstone and using it to cudgel anything new?
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I don't think there's much innovation these days. Now I've got into making pedals, you actually realise that just about all of the 'boutique' pedals out there is a derivative of something old. Usually with different values / components, or tweaks here and there. But the underlying circuit is another Fuzz Face or Tube Screamer when you break it down. The same does for amplifiers I suppose. It's all about replicating that old Marshall / Fender / Vox sound with more gain / bottom end / versatility / etc or pickups chasing that holy grail PAF sound, or a PAF with extra ooomph, etc. Sure there is the contemporary stuff for everything, but underneath it all, the principles are often the same.
The way forward I think is digital, but that is often shunned for being to synthetic, or clinical. Which it might be right now. Think about CD when it first came around, it was all these things until people learned how to master for it and manufacturers refined/biased the players and other equipment to suit it. We're all desperately holding on to vinyl in the belief that it sounds better, when there are newer, cheaper, more consistent digital products out there. I think this is because despite it's flaws, vinyl does still sound better to some people (myself included) and as long as there's a market, these companies will continue to make these products. But we'll have to pay more and more of a premium for it as it isn't a cheap mass produced product and to compete with other sellers of such things, each maker has to push their own product to make it better than the other maker. In guitar circles this is given the label 'boutique' in hifi this is considered 'esoteric'. But it's the same thing in essence. Either way, it ends up costing, it depends whether the cost is worth it to you.
Also like hifi, there's a lot of bollocks in it, and perceived value. Mojo (old) parts for example and keeping things strictly vintage. Whether this makes a better product, I don't know. But I expect there is a certain amount of psychology involved when it comes down to it. For example sticking bumblebee caps into re-issue LPs, are they really going to sound massively different to a modern, much more consistently made orange drop?
Very interesting debate.
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I think that replicating a classic sound is what drives the majority of guitarists in their gear selection, it certainly has for me. New/innovative stuff is all well and good if you have the imagination and skill to use them well. Most people don't.
As well as the reliability issue, there's also the issue of price. Although boutique gear is usually relatively expensive, it's generally cheaper than buying the original thing that it's cloning. If you compare the price of original PAF's to BKP's for example, or a 60's VOX Tonebender for $2,500 against a D*A*M clone then it's a no-brainer for the majority.
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It's just simple evolution, not revolution. No big steps, just little tweaks here and there. That's what most of the boutique gear is.
And I like it :D
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A lot of boutique gear, including many BKP offerings, have nothing to to with vintage originals. I've never hear a vintage 'bucker that sounded like a ceramic warpig, and I don't think that is what Tim was going for when he created the 'pig.
Regardless, whooever said "there is a lot of bollocks and perceived value" in a lot of boutique stuff speaks truth. People with more money than talent (ME), hoping that some magical pickup/tailpiece/guitar/cable/string will transform them into the guitar hero of their youth.
Les Paul people are particularly prone to this fallacy and to the "more money spent = better TONE" fallacy. For some reason, the word "tone" is always spelled in caps ("TONE") when discussing the subject with middle-aged Les Paul people. And I like Les Pauls.
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i must say theres something in all of the posts on this //great// thread so far... (i like twinfans evolution idea)
i'd like to add cost to the mix. in the case of amps, one can often get a nice vintage jcm800 or whatever, for less than a boutique head. in the case of guitars and pickups, the boutique item will often be cheaper, or the same price as vintage - price of mules vs original PAFs etc
theres a little to be said for the mojo of knowing your playing a certain thing as well, i always have that extra grin when plugging my original '84 V into my all Mullard '76 Marshall... although we're quite sensible in this forum about what truly sounds good/bad on this forum, i think it still makes a difference. i know my faded series V and MIM strat sound and play the same or better - i don't get that 'rarrrr!' factor at all.
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You make a good point gwEm, it's all about the emotion. As musicians, we live off our muses. That may be a person who inspires lyrics, or a piece of gear that inspires you to play a certain way. I certainly play a LOT better when things are just 'right' with my rig and I'm in the right mood.
We're a fickle bunch aren't we? :lol:
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I'm not a fan of all this boutique stuff. I suppose I cant really be the judge as the only stuff I've tried which would be deemed boutique is Bareknuckles and a HBE Power Screamer. So I'm basing a lot of my opinion on the amps and stuff from clips.. Bareknuckles are definitely the best pickups I've tried but I really didnt like the Power Screamer, found it useless as a boost. My BYOC screamer does a way better job of boosting an amp to tighten it up imo.
I've heard clips of all these posh boutique amps, pedals etc and to me they sound no better than a 'normal' amp. It might be a different story if I were to play them though, would love to give something like a Splawn a go and be proven wrong :)
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Tone costs money but here are a few of my observations:-
The choice of guitars today is better than it ever has been and for under £300 quid you can buy a guitar that has great tones. We all search for that extra 5% that costs us another 1K or more but if we just played the cheaper guitars and concentrated more on playing, we would probably sound better.
If Peter Green had played a Vintage Icon Lemon Drop exclusively we’d all still comment on his great tone.
Pedals. A Boutique 808 costing £200 or original costing mucho $$$ sounds pretty much the same as a BYOC 808 clone for £62.50. A Boss SD1 however will not.
Amps. Simple things, again great choice. You can get a hand wired tone machine made in the UK for £600 - £800. It’s a lifetime purchase, made to last and will sound as good as the equivalent 60’s model did or better. Or you can buy a kit for around £250, learn how they work and how the individual components affect tone and that will sound great too.
So if you not bothered about aesthetics so much you can get great sounding, great value gear outside the boutique world. But if you want to pay £500 on a tubescreamer clone I say go for it, each to their own!
So back to the original point. Clones are great, the originals were great but are unreliable and cost the earth. I don’t need new designs because the original guitar and amp designs allow great expression and that’s all I need.
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One think I would say is a availability. For me being left hand going down the boutique route is sometimes the only option. If you want a certain style of guitar and they only make a right handed version there is no real other way.
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It's just simple evolution, not revolution. No big steps, just little tweaks here and there. That's what most of the boutique gear is.
And I like it :D
This sums it up pretty nicely for me with the majority of "clone" type gear.
However, most of my gear isn't really all that derivative, in my opinion. I have an engl preamp that I can only describe as sounding like an engl. They have a very distinctive tone of their own imo, one that's not quite like any other amp, at least in the kind of ballpark tones found in the genre of extreme metal that I play. I have a Laney Tony Iommi head, which, in my opinion once again, sounds like a Laney. A lot of people say they sound Marshally, but in my experience the only similarity has been the EL34 influence.
Bare Knuckle pickups, basically PAF clones.
This I somewhat disagree with on a couple of levels. Firstly, if they were attempts at being de facto paf clones, they wouldn't be scatterwound with the skill attention Tim and co. provide. They'd either be wound until the bobbins were full (lol) and fitted with a random alnico mag, or wound machinewound on a leesona for extra "authenticity".
I think it's a case of producing the best sounding pickup, rather than the most authentic (which is a wild goose chase beyond a certain point, as PAF's were a complete cr@pshoot as to what you got). I think it's absolutely the correct approach to take, a pickup should sound good first and foremost. The authenticity of the baseplates, wooden spacers etc. etc. is just the icing on the cake. I think it's pretty bold, maybe even innovative of BK to fly against the trends common amongst the boutique crew and traditionalists and say screw the leesonas or equivalent, they sound better the way we make them even if it's not (allegedly) vintage correct.
Secondly, none of the bkp's I own are even remotely paf-ish, the reason I'm such a BKP devotee is that for many years I thought I was an active guy. I was convinced I didn't like passive pickups, I couldn't get the clarity, aggression or attack I wanted from them. Then I played a guitar with a Miracleman in it and had a tonal epiphany. What I'm trying to convey is, I think the BKP's that I've played are in a league of their own, I don't think any other pickup company makes high output passive pickups that sound quite like the ones Bareknuckle does.
I use what sounds good personally. I try hard not to be swayed by the latest trends and herd mentality. I don't care if something is derivative as long as it sounds the absolute best for the application I'm using it for. Likewise, gear does not have to be innovative or original for me to use it.
p.s., On reflection, music is so evocative of youth and conjures up a lot of nostalgia. I don't think it's a huge coincidence that older generations are so obsessed with era correct gear harking back to the time of their youth is so common (and such a huge market). Give it another 30 years and people will be going crazy for a vintage C-Pig played through their axe-fx clone, so they can bust out some vintage djent (I really hate that word).
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What many boo-teek companies do and what I like about that is....:
Finding out what makes that vintage stuff tick
and what can be improved without taking anything away.
Tim closely examined vintage pickups and found out that the tone comes from the material and 'sloppy' coil winding. That 'sloppy' winding is very inconsistant but in some cases yielded great results. It probably led to cr@ppy pickups as well. That led him to scatterwinding wich takes the good things from 'sloppy' winding while eliminating the bad.
Old pickups weren't wax potted either so they'll squeel like a pig on a modern amp and overdrive so today companies wax pot their pickups. It doesn't take away much of the tone.
TV jones found out much of the Filtertron's tone comes from the materials used back then and mostly the shape of the pole screws. Next he improved them by making the bridge pickups taller for better balance and correct string spacing.
Pedal makers found out that most of the tone from old Tube Screamers comes from THAT chip. Next they improved it with better caps n' stuff.
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p.s., On reflection, music is so evocative of youth and conjures up a lot of nostalgia. I don't think it's a huge coincidence that older generations are so obsessed with era correct gear harking back to the time of their youth is so common (and such a huge market). Give it another 30 years and people will be going crazy for a vintage C-Pig played through their axe-fx clone, so they can bust out some vintage djent (I really hate that word).
I think you're on to something there. Most of the gear I'm hankering after is stuff that I really wanted but couldn't afford when I was first learning guitar, because it's stuff that was used on all my favourite albums at the time and that "tone" (for want of a better word) is how I like my guitars to sound. :)
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Interesting.
Anyone look at there being a difference between 'High End' and 'Boutique'?
IMO (and probably going to be flamed here :D ) there's a difference. I kind of agree with D&L that the trem 'Boutique' kind of implies searching for an idealised version of of x tone...
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I was thinking about this the other day;
Tone is subjective; at the end of the day it's just sound. What sounds good to you may sound horrendous to somebody else, although what is generally accepted as 'good tone' are the sounds that we grew up listening to on record.
Boutique gear manufacturers seem to mainly be in the business of recreating the 'vintage' gear that we hear on record with higher quality components, point-to-point wiring etc. as if the ultimate guitar tone is some sort of Hi-Fi aspiration. IT'S NOT. Guitar is distinctly low-fidelity; guitar amps are almost all based on very crude old stock circuits, driven into ridiculous amounts of distortion, and then plugged straight into a poorly thought out cabinet with any number of paper speakers in it with the most ridiculously inaccurate frequency response. And it sounds great!
Spend all the money you like on posh shiny pedals and amps, but in the end you're paying for the look and the 'vibe', not the sound. The greatest guitar tones IMO are extremely lo-fi, dirty, crude sounds, and the greatest guitarists do not play through hi-fi's :P
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What I'm trying to convey is, I think the BKP's that I've played are in a league of their own, I don't think any other pickup company makes high output passive pickups that sound quite like the ones Bareknuckle does.
I would agree with this too. I personally find that BKs strength is in the modern pickups. The vintage ones are good, but I think there are 'better' ones out there for me. My opinion of course, and I think Tim and the boys do a great job producing the range that they do :) So to say BKs are PAF clones is untrue. They're an evolution ;)
I've heard clips of all these posh boutique amps, pedals etc and to me they sound no better than a 'normal' amp. It might be a different story if I were to play them though, would love to give something like a Splawn a go and be proven wrong :)
You should try some other stuff Tom. I still sound like me whatever I play through, but it's all about the FEEL and how the amp and guitar respond to my playing. That's the extra bit that the boutique guys can give you.
As a final comment, the spooky 'boutique' tag is all about marketing and getting you to pay an inflated price for something. On the other hand, there are some great guys out there who are producing evolutions of classic designs without attaching remortgage prices to their products. Dr Z and MJW amps spring to mind as great examples.
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I used to buy boutique gear because no major manufacturers made what I wanted. However, over the last 5 years the big companies have really taken notice of the success of the boutique builders and have started trying to meet the need themselves. For example, 5 years ago the only way to get a low wattage valve amp was from a boutique builder, while now they're all over the place. Same thing with tubescreamers, in fact Ibanez are doing that 'handwired' 808. I recently bought a new MXR 'classic 108' fuzz and it's just as good as any of the (many) boutique fuzz face clones I've tried, and cheaper too.
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I used to buy boutique gear because no major manufacturers made what I wanted. However, over the last 5 years the big companies have really taken notice of the success of the boutique builders and have started trying to meet the need themselves. For example, 5 years ago the only way to get a low wattage valve amp was from a boutique builder, while now they're all over the place. Same thing with tubescreamers, in fact Ibanez are doing that 'handwired' 808. I recently bought a new MXR 'classic 108' fuzz and it's just as good as any of the (many) boutique fuzz face clones I've tried, and cheaper too.
thats true - the korg 'pitchblack' tuner is true bypass now for example, as are many commercial pedals.
also it can be the naffness of products that give them the cool rough sound - the very first marshalls for example
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Lots of great points and opinions here... but I firmly believe that nostalgia is a big influence on the choices we make now. For example, back in the 80's I had '68 small box Plexi front/ cream back panel that I loved and wished I'd never sold. I have regretted it for so many years I kept looking and looking for another. Last year I had the chance to play and compare my mates '73 metal panel and his mates '67/ '68 small box to my amp. Both amps are in very good condition and all original... no mods etc, and with the '67/'68 the guy even had with him various NOS valves. I have to say that as good as they both sounded, I'm so F'in glad I didn't sell my amp to finance one, it would have been such a disappointment! My nostalgic dreams would have become my nightmare.
Regarding pedals, I don't have many but I don't want anything in there that's going to affect/ change/ dull the sound I've come to love from my amp regardless of the manufacturer! Obviously we buy amps that sound good to us as they are, so I think it's a bigger issue when buying pedals to ensure they don't screw that basic sound up. At the end of the day one mans banger is another mans Rolls.... good job we don't all like the same thing.
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The only comment I will make on the true bypass subject is: an all-true-bypass pedal chain sounds like @ss!! Talk about marketing hype; Just as "pro lifers" attached a negative stigma to what is now called "pro choice" (If you're not pro life, then you MUST be ANTI life)** the people trying to sell us on true bypass came up with the nifty phrase tone suck. You don't want your tone to suck? Then use true bypass! Except, when every pedal is TB, your tone SUCKS!!! PDT_008
Now, to clarify something:
I DID NOT SAY THAT BK ONLY MAKES PAF CLONES!!!! I said IN MY RIG, because that is what I'm using -- Riff Raff, Stormy Monday, VHII, and Black Dog pickups. I think my personal opinion on Tim's pickup range should be well-established at this point! Sheesh ...
End of rant. :)
** Edit: For the record, I am neither "pro life" nor "pro choice". I am anti-stupid!!
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You don't want your tone to suck? Then use true bypass! Except, when every pedal is TB, your tone SUCKS!!! PDT_008
hey man, we're all agreeing with the general thrust of what you're saying in the first post :)
regarding true bypass: i don't have ever that many pedals on my chain - maximum three, usually two (one of these a tuner). i have noticed tone suck with pedals like TS or SD types, or wahs. as a well qualified and experienced electronic engineer, i know that the bypass of these particular pedals are badly designed. i think with the low number of pedals i'm running, seeing a pedal has 'true bypass' feature does give me peace of mind, since its hard to try before you buy. though it is true that its being used more often now as a marketing feature, but not always.
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You don't want your tone to suck? Then use true bypass! Except, when every pedal is TB, your tone SUCKS!!! PDT_008
hey man, we're all agreeing with the general thrust of what you're saying in the first post :)
Yup PDT_003
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(a) The only area I can see where playing a replica scores over an actual vintage piece of kit is in the area of reliability, especially if you're gigging (old stuff tends to break).
So, I open it up to you guys --- where do you draw the line? Where does a so-called boutique product hold its own against the original for you, and where do you draw the line/get off the train? Does replicating a classic sound even hold any merit to you, or are you tired of the guitar industry constantly dragging the 1960s around like a millstone and using it to cudgel anything new?
(a) wouldn't price (or even availability) be a bit of a factor too? I mean, i might want a '59 les paul 'burst, but I don't have a spare $500k lying around, and even if I did, I'd be paranoid of buying a fake... :lol:
(b) i haven't really tried any good vintage stuff. I kind of have a mixture of gear- stuff to replicate classic tones, where it just wouldn't sound right if you didn't use something approaching the right gear (for example, if you need a strat tone, a les paul's not going to cut it), but i also buy stuff like superstrats etc., because for a lot of the music i play, they're better, or at least more suited.
regarding boutique versus non-boutique- if i think it's worth the extra money (and i have said extra money :lol: ) I'll pay for it, if not, I won't.
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You should try some other stuff Tom. I still sound like me whatever I play through, but it's all about the FEEL and how the amp and guitar respond to my playing. That's the extra bit that the boutique guys can give you.
I guess it would be the same with amps as Bareknuckles, then. I find that BKPs are more responsive and feel nicer to play than other pickups I've tried. The stock epiphones in the Pearl were horrible, no dynamics at all and just felt flat and lifeless. p90s definitely brought it to life :)
The problem with me trying a boutique amp would then be that I would want one and as a student I just cant afford it! I may even have to sell my Blackstar at the minute as I dont think I can manage the whole summer without a job (no one seems to be hiring) and on the remains of a student loan.
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Cool thread 8)
Boutique stuff by nature is meant to appeal to people with cash, who generally end up being middle aged + so it's no surprise that alot of it is vintage styled stuff.
But there's a difference imo between a shop that uses for example hand carving a body rather than CNC because they can't afford a CNC machine and the company that handcarves it to use as a bullshiteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee selling point to the clueless. I feel the same about PTP/Turret vs PCB.
There are loads of people paying for guitars that I consider a real rip off, like Gusstavason guitars - I'm sure they are amazing guitars but they first cost 3-4k. Then the hyperbole train got running at a few forums and blatantly fueled by friends of the dealers, at the time they were being sold used at a profit because the demand was so high and then the prices change to reflect it... they now go for 10k upwards.
The same with Fibenare, you can get the most expensive production model in europe (where they're made) for 2k where as in the states people regularly pay 5k (yes,when the exchange rate is near enough even). Not surprisingly both have the same US distributer.
I think it starts getting grey when we start discussing companies like Suhr and Splawn rather than Gusttavson and Tworock because I think they put out a great product at an amazing price. You'd be paying through the nose to get a Fender comparable to Suhr quality and I imagine the same goes for Marshall and Splawn.
I'm not buying highend/boutique gear because I think it sounds better than a guitar at 1k, in-fact I really don't think it does. Tone is so subjective and down to the player imo. I'm paying for the feel (build quality and design) of the guitar.
Edit: The anti high end gear argument is often 'Jeff Beck doesn't use this or that expensive gear etc...' and it's a silly argument at best because despite what some of the companies will tell you in the sales cr@p - the players aren't playing off the shelf guitars, Jeff Becks number 1 for example has pickups made by Suhr whilst he was at Fender and will be fretted/set-up by the best around. Attention to detail that you won't get on a 'normal' Fender, but you would from a normal Anderson etc...
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just read the rest of the thread now...
So if you not bothered about aesthetics so much you can get great sounding, great value gear outside the boutique world. But if you want to pay £500 on a tubescreamer clone I say go for it, each to their own!
agreed. i just want something which sounds good and plays well. I don't care what badge is on it.
I agree about true bypass, too. with any more than a couple of pedals (heck, i can hear the difference with one!), you're probably going to want a buffer in there somewhere. granted some buffers in cheaper pedals sometimes aren't all that great, but you could always get a good quality, standalone one if you cared that much.
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A lot of boutique gear, including many BKP offerings, have nothing to to with vintage originals. I've never hear a vintage 'bucker that sounded like a ceramic warpig, and I don't think that is what Tim was going for when he created the 'pig.
Regardless, whooever said "there is a lot of bollocks and perceived value" in a lot of boutique stuff speaks truth. People with more money than talent (ME), hoping that some magical pickup/tailpiece/guitar/cable/string will transform them into the guitar hero of their youth.
Les Paul people are particularly prone to this fallacy and to the "more money spent = better TONE" fallacy. For some reason, the word "tone" is always spelled in caps ("TONE") when discussing the subject with middle-aged Les Paul people. And I like Les Pauls.
I've more money than talent too.
And I don't have very much money.........
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Firstly, other than — love it or loathe it — DSP, most of the major innovations in the electric guitar/ amp technology were done by the 60s, and pedal technology by the end of the 70s.
Most "innovation" since then has been directed at either fine tuning designs, or by making it cheaper.
Obviously as gear evolves and we have more knowledge any advancements, such as they are, become increasingly marginal.
What's good about the current market is that there is a huge variety of great gear out that at a range of prices.
When I started out the cheapest "Woolworths" electric guitar was about £100 (which was worth a lot more than it is now!!) and was virtually unplayable.
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You make a good point gwEm, it's all about the emotion. As musicians, we live off our muses. That may be a person who inspires lyrics, or a piece of gear that inspires you to play a certain way. I certainly play a LOT better when things are just 'right' with my rig and I'm in the right mood.
We're a fickle bunch aren't we? :lol:
I dunno. The best guitarists I have met or heard (LA and NYC studio musicians, Russian and Polish jazz fiends) are pretty indifferent to their gear.
Just as I can make it all sound bad, they can make it all sound good.
I've more money than talent too.
And I don't have very much money.........
You took the words out of my mouth.
One thing I will say for boutique clones of vintage gear (and I build them myself) is that they can be made much more consistent than the "real" thing. It is also possible to make vintage combinations or options that are hard or impossible to come by without hacking up classic gear.
For instance, a '69 hardtail Strat, but with a D-sized neck and a veneer maple board. You could have ordered this combination from Fender in early 1969. It was theoretically possible by checking off the right sequence of options at that time.
Good luck finding one.
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** Edit: For the record, I am neither "pro life" nor "pro choice". I am anti-stupid!!
I'm pro-fret-dress myself!
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Interesting debate:
The reason a lot of Boutique stuff is firmly based on classic lines is because of customer demand in general
I had always had a "blank piece of paper starting point" for my custom builds, and still do to an extent
You want a doubleneck built in the likeness of Geri Halliwell in her Union Jack Dress?
We'll build it (and yes I have been asked for that one - it's half built waiting on the guy to find some more money)
But considering that we have offered to make people whatever they want , more often than not players would ask for something that resembles something traditional or classic - but usually with personal touches or refinements or improvements.
Many of the models I make I would class as updated classics.
Many of the most popular refinements are pretty much what I consider my standard features
A better neck joint , or a stiffer more stable neck
Less chances of a headstock break
Locking tuners and hardware
Custom wound pickups
A personal preference for neck size, fretwire etc
Left handed versions of guitars that were never made as lefties
I have gone down the custom route myself with stuff to get stuff that suits my needs better
My bike was put together for me by the Guys at Geoffrey Butlers (their shop is round the corner from me)
Ampwise I love stuff that is considered boutique by many
My Egnater modular series are totally brilliant - even more so than my trusty ADAs to my current tastes
Even my ADAs are modified in some cases
I intend to get some Randall Modules modified so is that "Boutiquing/customising an already boutique amp"
My other amps are from MJW and Heavier Than Hell has one in the works for me based on my own personal tastes
It's about attention to detail, improved component choice (not Hi-Fi but just what will sound best)
It's about having stuff that inspires me and makes me want to play
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why butique over vintage and standard?
for me..
#1 it's higher quality that the standard run of the mill product
#2 it's in most cases cheaper, more reliable, more accessible than vintage products
#3 you can have it factory tailored to your liking
#4 (kinda a combination of points) you can get exactly the sound you want, from 3 pieces of gear, without fancy EQing, technitians .. where previously you'd need a myriad of effects, just to get to that level of tone you want (well... in some cases.. you can still plug in straight and get oblivion :D .. with more reliability)
#5 SUPERB customer support and warranty
and that is why it's always going to be "better"
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I can hear the difference between a Marshall Handwired Reissue plexi and my old original 69.
I can tell the different between a T-Rex Alberta pedal vs a TS9 reissue and I can tell the difference between my Zvex Box of Rock and anything else similar.
I enjoy my gear but I don't pay huge prices coz I get most of it at trade (working in a guitar shop helps ladies).
anyway yea it's all much of a muchness but it's nice to try something new and Im convinced most modern mass produced stuff is just utter shitee.
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Im convinced most modern mass produced stuff is just utter shiteee.
Care to elaborate? 8)
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Whenever I read about vintage stuff or boutique stuff trying to hark back to a vintage product I think of that dude from Raiders of the Lost Ark.
"Look at this [holds up a silver pocket watch]: it's worthless. Ten dollars from a vendor in the street. But I take it, I bury it in the sand for a thousand years, it becomes priceless! Like the Ark. Men will kill for it; men like you and me."
Does this fit in this thread? Probably not, but it's Friday
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I think there is a very specific issue for vintage amp circuits and it is related to the way electronic engineering has moved. The greatest pool of knowledge on analogue circuits and valves existed between the 40s and 70s the engineers of this period would spend more or less all of their time training and understanding valves and analogue technology. Over time this has been reduced step by step and there are now relativley speaking only a handfull of people with that level of understanding. Obviously those people will build on the best that came out of the hot house period and evolve it where they can. The low volume hadbuilt nature is what makes them expensive. The same reasoning applies to those great pedals people want to emulate.
The digitisation of music and lately the compression of it has made a huge difference to the skills base and real sounds. Talk to any of the early BBC or studio and live engineers from EMI or Deutche (sp) records and listen to any of those two mic recordings they made and you soon realise what a huge step backwords mass market music has taken.
In other areas I am less sure some mass produced very expensive instruments may well be outperformed by lower priced handbuilt customs. The idea of a cnc machine cutting features like fret slots seems reasonable to me but for the shaping of the body I am sure a handbuilder shapes to the tone they want tapping and changing as they go (I may be wrong) but its in the hand finishing that I think the instrument gains its tone.
Stiff doped paper cone speakers are used for large speakers because apart from a few very very expensive alternatives it has always proved to be the best. When speakers drop to 8" and less then many other materials come into their own.
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Whenever I read about vintage stuff or boutique stuff trying to hark back to a vintage product I think of that dude from Raiders of the Lost Ark.
"Look at this [holds up a silver pocket watch]: it's worthless. Ten dollars from a vendor in the street. But I take it, I bury it in the sand for a thousand years, it becomes priceless! Like the Ark. Men will kill for it; men like you and me."
Does this fit in this thread? Probably not, but it's Friday
I'd disagree with the analogy. The price for any object is set by supply and demand. Of course, the interaction of demand and supply is a bit more complicated than this, but bear with me.
In the case of the old watch, it is valuable (assuming that it becomes a collector's item, as lots of old things aren't) because supply of very old watches is limited. They are rare.
Most vintage guitars, amps, etc. are really not all that rare. Thousands were made not long ago, many or most survive, even if they are not all factory-mint.
What drives prices for guitars and gear is demand more than supply. Now, one could argue that demand for vintage gear is largely an artifact of the baby boom generation trying to buy the guitars their heroes once played and otherwise to relive their youth, and that prices for such gear will fall as the boomers get older, but that is another discussion.
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I cannot add much to the many eloquent replies above. I think that a lot of the "boutique" stuff replicates the old respected pieces of kit that perceived wisdom tells us all is superior- the landmark amps pedals or whatever. They are catering for that demand and at the same time making things available that might be otherwise hard to get hold of or simply not worth taking to the "Dog & Vacuum Cleaner" to play a gig. Not a very original thought I know but I don't think too hard of these things as a rule.
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for me the term boutique can be applied when a maker is aiming to replicate the best example of something... and possibly even improve on it.
e.g. they shouldnt just be aiming to build something that sounds like any marshall plexi - they should be aiming to sound like the best marshall plexi's... and hopefully they should know the difference!
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There is definitely that.
As the self-appointed semi-official BKP Forum historian of early CBS-era Fender guitars, I can tell you that Fender produced some truly magical guitars in those days. Fender also made some mediocre guitars that could be turned into nice instruments with a little work, and also some utter dogs made from furniture-grade wood that no amount of tweaking could redeem.
From what they tell me about vintage pedals and the nature of electronics manufacturing then, the situation is the same only ten times more so.
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well iirc most electronics components used in anything considered vintage would vary from stated values by about +/- 20%. if you have every component in an amp that can vary by that much its easy to see why they dont all sound the same. thats before you factor in age effects or any work that may have been done.
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I think what tends to muddy the waters is that whenever there is a high priced market there is someone taking advantage, producing mediocre or good (but not great) gear and giving it a 'boutique' tag to justify the price.
Or am I being cynical and actually they are knocking their socks off, doing the best they can, and it's just not that good?
I'm a cycnic so I'm going with the first statement :)
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You're talking about GFS, right?
I have to admit they sound pretty good and have some character in there too.
If you never tried BKP, Lollar, TV Jones etc. you might even think you've hit the jackpot. Unfortunately, I've been spoiled by those high end pickup and those GFS pickups just won't do it for me because I know there's something beter.
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I don't know if Ailean was talking about GFS or not, but I don't think they're really guilty of "bogus boutiquery".
I'd be surprised if anyone is naive enough to expect a genuinely top-class product at that price. All they've done is design a decent product and get it manufactured cheaply - and by all accounts they've come up with something extremely good for the price.
Same would go for Tonerider (although their pedals actually seem to be giving the boutique manufacturers a pretty good run for their money). Maybe Irongear too, although I don't know much about them. :)
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I was talking in generalities of human nature, no one specific in mind.
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I was talking in generalities of human nature, no one specific in mind.
Then you, my friend, are a true cynic and I salute you!! You should move to NYC; you would thrive here!!!
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for me the term boutique can be applied when a maker is aiming to replicate the best example of something... and possibly even improve on it.
e.g. they shouldnt just be aiming to build something that sounds like any marshall plexi - they should be aiming to sound like the best marshall plexi's... and hopefully they should know the difference!
This is my take on the issue as well. Take Scumback, for example. This is a man that bought a mess of vintage drivers, found the ones that sounded the best, and then purchased as many consecutive serial numbers as he could find, amassing a huge PHYSICAL DATABASE which served as his base level for the replicas. Each Scumback is a recreation of the idealised speaker it replicates, without the need of having to purchase a dozen Prerolla 12" drivers in order to (hopefully) get 4 that match!
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I really hope I understood what you stated correctly, as this is a bit off topic.
The digitisation of music and lately the compression of it has made a huge difference to the skills base and real sounds.
I would say "over compression" and "amount of damage", but otherwise agree. :)
Talk to any of the early BBC or studio and live engineers from EMI or Deutche (sp) records and listen to any of those two mic recordings they made and you soon realise what a huge step [backwards] mass market music has taken.
You have slightly confused two issues, but I will address them both here.
First, what you call Mass Market music is made with only two purposes in mind:
1. It is created to be liked, devoid of any actual substance, and therefore what it actually sounds like or is about is irrelevant, and therefore void.
2. It is created to be the carrier frequency for consumerism; ie, to sell a lifestyle (cars, watches, bling, gadgets, etc etc)
So to compare Mass Market music to what I would call Handcrafted music is unfair from the get-go -- they serve different purposes (one tries to challenge and enrich the listener, the other seeks to anaesthesize).
Second, going back to the so-called Golden Age of recording, there was a lot of disposable music recorded then, as well. I do agree, however, that it was generally more carefully recorded due to two outstanding factors: there were a lot less tracks (if any) at their disposal and there was virtually no way to fix a bad take in post production.
The other thing that changed recording quality forever was the advent of the electric guitar (yay!). Overnight the percussion section went from being the loudest part of a combo to being drowned out. That changed the way music was recorded and presented live forever.
Simply put, using a single 12" ribbon mic would not work in recording a band today due to the fact that music today is not designed to fit together the way acoustic instruments are. There are too many pieces to fit, even in a simple rock combo. (The sheer amount of items fighting for the precious midrange in a 4 piece rock band can only be handled with post-production)
To wrap up this (overly?) long post:
While I disagree that digital technology has made us dumber, it has certainly has the potential to make us more lazy if we are not careful.
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The only comment I will make on the true bypass subject is: an all-true-bypass pedal chain sounds like @ss!! Talk about marketing hype; Just as "pro lifers" attached a negative stigma to what is now called "pro choice" (If you're not pro life, then you MUST be ANTI life)** the people trying to sell us on true bypass came up with the nifty phrase tone suck. You don't want your tone to suck? Then use true bypass! Except, when every pedal is TB, your tone SUCKS!!! PDT_008
Very true! Well, it's just like using a very long cable, highs get sucked out and stuff like that. My pedalboard is true bypass except for two pedals; the first pedal on the signal chain, and my delay pedal on the FX loop.
The first pedal is this: http://www.mieffects.com/BnBinbrief.htm (http://www.mieffects.com/BnBinbrief.htm). When it's turned off, it's a high impedance buffer, removing you of the signal loss caused by all the cable on your pedalboard. When turned on, it's a clean boost for the first 15 dB, and a treble booster from there on. It's not very expensive, it's quiet and does exactly what it promises to. I definitely recommend it.
The delay pedal is not true bypass, but it's usually for a small delay, so it doesn't matter that much.
But back to the topic..whatever floats your boat. I like boutique builders; they pretty much always bring you the best quality, if they have the exact product you want. Or, they can build it. Sure, you can find the same thing on the mass produced products :) But when you know what you want and go the boutique route, you'll probably end with a product that is second to none.
I don't think it's much different than having a custom guitar made by a smaller company/builder, as opposed to a mass produced guitar. We all know there are absolute gems in the mass produced guitars too, but the boutique (custom) quality is in AVERAGE much higher.
And what it all leads to? First, a personal fulfillment for the player. Satisfaction. If you give a comparison to an average listener on an 'OK' product and a 'Boutique' one, he will probably not hear much difference. This of course leads to the next question; is it worth it then, as the listener doesn't really know the difference? Well, the player knows the difference. That difference is very often inspiring, and an inspired player plays better. And that's what IS audible for the listener. And that why, ladies and gentlemen, it is worth it 8)
-Zaned
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I think tone has much to do with who is playing (the fingers) as well as how well someone knows his gear.
I've been changing amps and stuff a lot, and sometimes I am just floored by a guy who comes along with a Marshall TSL or some Fender amp and sounds so badass that it hurts.
If people stick to their guns and gradually improve/dial them in, that's often worth more than NOS tubes or huge transformers.
And anyways, in the audience, 95% care shite on how the guitar sounds.
In the end it's about what people are craving for or what they like. I love expensive amps, the looks, the craftmanship, the tone, the feel. But I've decided against them for convenience reasons. Now I am emulating them and it's also much fun.
I don't think it's bullshitee. Major issue if you ask me is that most of the owners of boutique gear cannot really experience it in all its glory, because they don't have the band or place to turn it up real loud, which is when bouteek qualities really show.
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I don't think that people go back to 'classic' sounds to hark back to youth or nostalgia; its simply the accepted 'voice' of the guitar. Those sounds that were laid down back in the 50's/60's are now as timeless as a piano.
Anything that is heavily synthesised or modulated will age. Half of the reason the 1980s is laughed at is the use of synthesisers and heavily-modulated guitars (chorus, flange etc). These are trends, and they come and go. When they go, they sound remarkably dated quickly.
Yet the sound of an LP into a Marshall will never sound dated. How could it? It is the vocabulary of the guitar. It is the permanent foundation.
So we will always go back to those basics.
Beyond that, re: boutique, I'm not so sure. I used to get a lot of that stuff, but then an EHX LPB1 destroyed my D*A*M* pedal, so I'm open-minded. Its important to remember that a lot of 'classic tones' have been made with non-boutique gear. Frusciante makes a DS2 sing like a mofo, Gilmour's classic tones are LBMs, NOT the Cornishes, and so on.
It really is just about finding what gear reverberates with you. Those pedals 'clicked' with those guitarists. A lot of people find that more obscure, cool guitar inspires them to being yet more unique and drilling down to the CORE of who they are as a musician, and what makes them tick. Me, I have never found a better set up than my 1982 Navigator 335, through an EHX LPB-1 into a 1987 JCM800 4103...but what inspired Kurt Cobain was a Jag and a DS1. What is more 'right'? Neither. Its just a question of what works for me, what works for him. It's all colours of the same palette.
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I realized that my post is easily misread as stating that mass produced products cannot give that inspiration; that was not my intent. Most of my gear is NOT boutique. It's just stuff that I happen to match with. If I don't match with it, it goes. The point was that with boutique, you can pretty much guarantee quality..and satisfaction as long as you know what you want and the product is aimed for that!
-Zaned
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I really hope I understood what you stated correctly, as this is a bit off topic.
You have slightly confused two issues, but I will address them both here.
Sorry I was trying to put some of my comments into context in terms of background. I do agree with your comments one thing I will add is the real difference between now and then is :- then people would go and hear their bands in concerts and want to be able to listen to them at home so they went to buy recordings. Now bands put music out on radio, tv, the internet and recordings to get people hooked so they can fill the stadiums and venues where most make the bulk of their cash. They make more money now if it is a popular phone tone than they do from music royalities.
People are now so used to low grade mp3 and streaming through cr@ppy in ear headphones that there is little point in the mass market bands putting too much effort into the sound so they dont fuss so much about the production or quality of the recording engineers.
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You're talking about GFS, right?
I have to admit they sound pretty good and have some character in there too.
If you never tried BKP, Lollar, TV Jones etc. you might even think you've hit the jackpot. Unfortunately, I've been spoiled by those high end pickup and those GFS pickups just won't do it for me because I know there's something beter.
I fitted some GFS pups to a Yamaha Pacifica for someone, the single coils were really very good. I really liked the sound from them. The humbucker was just mud though. Then again, they cost next to nothing and were better than the stock pups so it wasn't so bad.
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I have a lot of vintage stuff collected through the years, and also a lot of custom stuff. I started to buy the custom stuff when I realised that I wanted lower powered amps for recording at home, which came about with the introduction of the 4 track reel to reel and then the portastudio. I have original pedals and new boutique ones (including HBE, Fulltone and Klon). My old chain when I was gigging was Les Paul/Strat/SG Junior -> Schaller Fuzz/Wah -> MXR Phase 90 -> old Wem Wah -> valve Copycat -> Small Box Marshall 50 & 4x12 or AC30. The Wem wah had no on/off switch and I used it as a frequency booster to get feedback, rather than as a wah. Back then my leads were all coily until Whirlwind came along when I swapped out some for their brass jack range. I used to love the tone I had but the amp was pretty cranked. When I stopped gigging I bought a Fender Princeton Reverb II and a Roland Bolt 60. Eventually I found John McIntyre via an article in Guitar Player and bought one of his Stereo 205 combo's (2 separate 5 watt amps [one 6V6, the other EL84], in a combo with 2 8" speakers). However in my apartment even this was too loud! I eventually got John to make me the amp that evolved into the Lexicon Signature 284 (a stereo recording amp with 3 watts per channel and rackmounted).
The last boutique amp I got was a Ceriatone, where Nik made me a 18wTMB/EF86 pre with a JTM45 power section. I also got one of his Overtone Specials. I bought a Fulltone RTO a few weeks ago and I have some new guitars and BK's which I will report on soon (I am travelling at the moment). What I will say is that one of my guitars is something I have wanted for a while, it is a 25.5" scale Les Paul.
For me, I have reached the point where I know what I want to play and what sound I want, which is why I am pretty certain that when I go the custom route I will get what I expect. However, the real sound I like still is the original setup I had with the Marshall cranked! Given that there was no bypass in that setup at all, I have never worried about true bypass, because the minute you have a pedal on, then it is irrelevant, and I have a pedal on most of the time, unless I'm just playing into the amp.
So boutique works for me because I know what I like, however when I picked up my 61 Strat there is still something about it that is magic (I have had it since 1983 and it was just refretted and reboddied). And if I could do it in a big enough place, the old marshall cranked, 2 wah's and a phaser and echo, I'd be in tone heaven with the strat.
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^ Phil, I love ya but ... what does this have to do with the subject at hand?!!!?! PDT_008
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Guitarists are a conservative bunch for the most part, thats why theres so many 'replicas of' imo.
I've built amps with valves barely anyone here would recognise and they've sounded amazing. Give it to a typical guitarist and they'll be turning their nose up because it doesn't have 12AX7s and EL34s. Guitarists want whats familiar to them - tried and tested tones/designs.
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I don't think that people go back to 'classic' sounds to hark back to youth or nostalgia; its simply the accepted 'voice' of the guitar. Those sounds that were laid down back in the 50's/60's are now as timeless as a piano.
I would say that those sounds are just as specific to a generation as those of the 1980's or any other time. Try telling a 24-year old about Duane Allman and you might as well be talking about Stan Getz' expanded harmonic vocabulary.
Or you'll probably get a response like "real guitars are for old people."
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my own gear is a mixture of analogue and digital, boutique and mass produced, new and vintage.
i think there is a lot of "boutique" gear that plays on that tag to overprice itself, and some that is well made, great sounding stuff at sensible prices. the likes of zvex aren't cheap, but aren't insanely expensive, and is one of the few companies that seem to be trying to advance analogue effects. and can you blame analog-man for charging plenty for the King-of-tone when there's a near two year waiting list!? meanwhile, i have their analog chorus and peppermint fuzz, both great pedals at fairly sensible prices. but nothing new!
Electro-Harmonix do come out with some new and interesting effects. but the great majority of effects, amps and guitars are recreations or approximations of old stuff. it is good, i think, that old gear that's no longer available can be got hold off, often in a more reliable or versatile form. i also think it's a pity that the market is such that innovation is largely ignored in favour imitation. i'm sure plenty of these guys could build new and fascinating effects, but who would buy them? and big companies aren't known for taking risks by releasing untried ideas into the wild.
and yet there are some smallish firms that do: pigtronix have some funky stuff; the Diamond delay pedal is interesting if very expensive. and that feedback looper thing i can't remember the name of :oops:
then there's amps. everyone looks down their noses at solid state and modelling amps, but they're practical and affordable. the advent of modelling has brought tones that couldn't have been dreamt of by the average player 15 years ago into every bedroom in the land! i do think that if a company with a decent R&D budget were to build high end solid state amps, there isn't any reason why they couldn't rival valve amps for tone and feel. but pretty much every small amp maker is doing clones of old valve amps.
i can't remember now what point i was trying to make! or even what the original theme was! :) i have to work now, so hopefully i'll collect my thoughts, realise what i want to say and continue later...
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Why do some of these posts bring to mind Trigger in Only fools
So this is a 63 strat
Yes had the same guitar for 46 years
wow thats a long time
Yes and it's only had 213 sets of strings, 3 machine heads, 2 necks, 5 lots of frets, 4 sets of pickups a new body, 3 new top plates, and 5 tremolos, 6 new pots, 2 new switches and the partridge on the neck isnt origional
:lol:
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Why do some of these posts bring to mind Trigger in Only fools
So this is a 63 strat
Yes had the same guitar for 46 years
wow thats a long time
Yes and it's only had 213 sets of strings, 3 machine heads, 2 necks, 5 lots of frets, 4 sets of pickups a new body, 3 new top plates, and 5 tremolos, 6 new pots, 2 new switches and the partridge on the neck isnt origional
:lol:
Awesome quote, but you only get a C+ because you didn't explain your work!!!
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^ Phil, I love ya but ... what does this have to do with the subject at hand?!!!?! PDT_008
I thought I was coming down in favour of the boutique if you know what you are getting and know what the sound is that you are after. However I guess I was also saying that the original equipment still has some 'mojo' that the boutique sometimes lacks - though I think I want a 65 Amps Stone Pony!!