BOUTIQUE -- or BS?! -- Discussion

[Denim n Leather]

I was talking with a friend today, who happens to be a great guitarist currently playing on Broadway, about the various bits of "boutique" and "high end" gear we use to get our respective tones. The conversation went along the lines of ...

What are Bare Knuckle pickups?
Oh, they are these amazing PAF replicas ...

What is a Splawn?
Oh, it's an amazing plexi/JCM 800 replica ...

What is a Power Screamer?
Oh, it's this great Tube Screamer replica ...

... and it got me to thinking:

As guitarists, we spend decades chasing after the so-called Holy Grail called tone and when push comes to shove, 99% of the boutique or high end market is the providence of clones and sound-alikes, or at the very least, sounds eerily close to's.

For example, in my current rig I use:

Agile guitars, basically Les Paul clones. I use them because I have convinced myself that they are better to use than an actual Les Paul.

Splawn amplifier, basically a Marshall clone. I use this because I have convinced myself that it is better to use than an actual Marshall.

Scumback speakers, basically a Prerolla clone. I use this because I have convinced myself that it is better to use than an actual Prerolla loudspeaker.

Bare Knuckle pickups, basically PAF clones. I use them because I have convinced myself that they are better to use than an actual PAF, original Gibson, DiMarzio, or Seymour Duncan pickup. Or even stock pickups.

Hartman Tommy Bolin fuzz, basically a Sam Ash fuzz clone. I use this because I have convinced myself that it is better than an actual Sam Ash fuzz.

...

and the list can go on and on.

The reasons why I feel each of these pieces is better than an original is irrelevant. I can conjure up 'facts', reasons, excuses, etc all day long (cost, tone, etc etc). The only area I can see where playing a replica scores over an actual vintage piece of kit is in the area of reliability, especially if you're gigging (old stuff tends to break).

So, I open it up to you guys --- where do you draw the line? Where does a so-called boutique product hold its own against the original for you, and where do you draw the line/get off the train? Does replicating a classic sound even hold any merit to you, or are you tired of the guitar industry constantly dragging the 1960s around like a millstone and using it to cudgel anything new?

[juansolo]

I don't think there's much innovation these days. Now I've got into making pedals, you actually realise that just about all of the 'boutique' pedals out there is a derivative of something old. Usually with different values / components, or tweaks here and there. But the underlying circuit is another Fuzz Face or Tube Screamer when you break it down. The same does for amplifiers I suppose. It's all about replicating that old Marshall / Fender / Vox sound with more gain / bottom end / versatility / etc or pickups chasing that holy grail PAF sound, or a PAF with extra ooomph, etc. Sure there is the contemporary stuff for everything, but underneath it all, the principles are often the same.

The way forward I think is digital, but that is often shunned for being to synthetic, or clinical. Which it might be right now. Think about CD when it first came around, it was all these things until people learned how to master for it and manufacturers refined/biased the players and other equipment to suit it. We're all desperately holding on to vinyl in the belief that it sounds better, when there are newer, cheaper, more consistent digital products out there. I think this is because despite it's flaws, vinyl does still sound better to some people (myself included) and as long as there's a market, these companies will continue to make these products. But we'll have to pay more and more of a premium for it as it isn't a cheap mass produced product and to compete with other sellers of such things, each maker has to push their own product to make it better than the other maker. In guitar circles this is given the label 'boutique' in hifi this is considered 'esoteric'. But it's the same thing in essence. Either way, it ends up costing, it depends whether the cost is worth it to you.

Also like hifi, there's a lot of bollocks in it, and perceived value. Mojo (old) parts for example and keeping things strictly vintage. Whether this makes a better product, I don't know. But I expect there is a certain amount of psychology involved when it comes down to it. For example sticking bumblebee caps into re-issue LPs, are they really going to sound massively different to a modern, much more consistently made orange drop?

Very interesting debate.

[Doctor X]

I think that replicating a classic sound is what drives the majority of guitarists in their gear selection, it certainly has for me.  New/innovative stuff is all well and good if you have the imagination and skill to use them well.  Most people don't.

As well as the reliability issue, there's also the issue of price.  Although boutique gear is usually relatively expensive, it's generally cheaper than buying the original thing that it's cloning.  If you compare the price of original PAF's to BKP's for example, or a 60's VOX Tonebender for $2,500 against a D*A*M clone then it's a no-brainer for the majority.

[Twinfan]

It's just simple evolution, not revolution.  No big steps, just little tweaks here and there.  That's what most of the boutique gear is.

And I like it  :D

[Prawnik]

A lot of boutique gear, including many BKP offerings, have nothing to to with vintage originals. I've never hear a vintage 'bucker that sounded like a ceramic warpig, and I don't think that is what Tim was going for when he created the 'pig.

Regardless, whooever said "there is a lot of bollocks and perceived value" in a lot of boutique stuff speaks truth. People with more money than talent (ME), hoping that some magical pickup/tailpiece/guitar/cable/string will transform them into the guitar hero of their youth.

Les Paul people are particularly prone to this fallacy and to the "more money spent = better TONE" fallacy. For some reason, the word "tone" is always spelled in caps ("TONE") when discussing the subject with middle-aged Les Paul people. And I like Les Pauls.

[gwEm]

i must say theres something in all of the posts on this //great// thread so far... (i like twinfans evolution idea)

i'd like to add cost to the mix. in the case of amps, one can often get a nice vintage jcm800 or whatever, for less than a boutique head. in the case of guitars and pickups, the boutique item will often be cheaper, or the same price as vintage - price of mules vs original PAFs etc

theres a little to be said for the mojo of knowing your playing a certain thing as well, i always have that extra grin when plugging my original '84 V into my all Mullard '76 Marshall... although we're quite sensible in this forum about what truly sounds good/bad on this forum, i think it still makes a difference. i know my faded series V and MIM strat sound and play the same or better - i don't get that 'rarrrr!' factor at all.

[Twinfan]

You make a good point gwEm, it's all about the emotion.  As musicians, we live off our muses.  That may be a person who inspires lyrics, or a piece of gear that inspires you to play a certain way.  I certainly play a LOT better when things are just 'right' with my rig and I'm in the right mood.

We're a fickle bunch aren't we?  :lol:

[_tom_]

I'm not a fan of all this boutique stuff. I suppose I cant really be the judge as the only stuff I've tried which would be deemed boutique is Bareknuckles and a HBE Power Screamer. So I'm basing a lot of my opinion on the amps and stuff from clips.. Bareknuckles are definitely the best pickups I've tried but I really didnt like the Power Screamer, found it useless as a boost. My BYOC screamer does a way better job of boosting an amp to tighten it up imo.

I've heard clips of all these posh boutique amps, pedals etc and to me they sound no better than a 'normal' amp. It might be a different story if I were to play them though, would love to give something like a Splawn a go and be proven wrong :)

[tomjackson]

Tone costs money but here are a few of my observations:-

The choice of guitars today is better than it ever has been and for under £300 quid you can buy a guitar that has great tones.  We all search for that extra 5% that costs us another 1K or more but if we just played the cheaper guitars and concentrated more on playing, we would probably sound better.
If Peter Green had played a Vintage Icon Lemon Drop exclusively we’d all still comment on his great tone.

Pedals.  A Boutique 808 costing £200 or original costing mucho $$$ sounds pretty much the same as a BYOC 808 clone for £62.50.  A Boss SD1 however will not.

Amps.  Simple things, again great choice.  You can get a hand wired tone machine made in the UK for £600 - £800.  It’s a lifetime purchase, made to last and will sound as good as the equivalent 60’s model did or better.   Or you can buy a kit for around £250, learn how they work and how the individual components affect tone and that will sound great too. 

So if you not bothered about aesthetics so much you can get great sounding, great value gear outside the boutique world.  But if you want to pay £500 on a tubescreamer clone I say go for it, each to their own!

So back to the original point.  Clones are great, the originals were great but are unreliable and cost the earth.  I don’t need new designs because the original guitar and amp designs allow great expression and that’s all I need.

[roland_rat]

One think I would say is a availability.  For me being left hand going down the boutique route is sometimes the only option.  If you want a certain style of guitar and they only make a right handed version there is no real other way.

[Excruciator]

It's just simple evolution, not revolution.  No big steps, just little tweaks here and there.  That's what most of the boutique gear is.

And I like it  :D

This sums it up pretty nicely for me with the majority of "clone" type gear.

However, most of my gear isn't really all that derivative, in my opinion. I have an engl preamp that I can only describe as sounding like an engl. They have a very distinctive tone of their own imo, one that's not quite like any other amp, at least in the kind of ballpark tones found in the genre of extreme metal that I play. I have a Laney Tony Iommi head, which, in my opinion once again, sounds like a Laney. A lot of people say they sound Marshally, but in my experience the only similarity has been the EL34 influence.

Bare Knuckle pickups, basically PAF clones.

This I somewhat disagree with on a couple of levels. Firstly, if they were attempts at being de facto paf clones, they wouldn't be scatterwound with the skill attention Tim and co. provide. They'd either be wound until the bobbins were full (lol) and fitted with a random alnico mag, or wound machinewound on a leesona for extra "authenticity".
I think it's a case of producing the best sounding pickup, rather than the most authentic (which is a wild goose chase beyond a certain point, as PAF's were a complete cr@pshoot as to what you got). I think it's absolutely the correct approach to take, a pickup should sound good first and foremost. The authenticity of the baseplates, wooden spacers etc. etc. is just the icing on the cake. I think it's pretty bold, maybe even innovative of BK to fly against the trends common amongst the boutique crew and traditionalists and say screw the leesonas or equivalent, they sound better the way we make them even if it's not (allegedly) vintage correct.

Secondly, none of the bkp's I own are even remotely paf-ish, the reason I'm such a BKP devotee is that for many years I thought I was an active guy. I was convinced I didn't like passive pickups, I couldn't get the clarity, aggression or attack I wanted from them. Then I played a guitar with a Miracleman in it and had a tonal epiphany. What I'm trying to convey is, I think the BKP's that I've played are in a league of their own, I don't think any other pickup company makes high output passive pickups that sound quite like the ones Bareknuckle does.

I use what sounds good personally. I try hard not to be swayed by the latest trends and herd mentality. I don't care if something is derivative as long as it sounds the absolute best for the application I'm using it for. Likewise, gear does not have to be innovative or original for me to use it.

p.s., On reflection, music is so evocative of youth and conjures up a lot of nostalgia. I don't think it's a huge coincidence that older generations are so obsessed with era correct gear harking back to the time of their youth is so common (and such a huge market). Give it another 30 years and people will be going crazy for a vintage C-Pig played through their axe-fx clone, so they can bust out some vintage djent (I really hate that word).

[Ratrod]

What many boo-teek companies do and what I like about that is....:

Finding out what makes that vintage stuff tick

and what can be improved without taking anything away.

Tim closely examined vintage pickups and found out that the tone comes from the material and 'sloppy' coil winding. That 'sloppy' winding is very inconsistant but in some cases yielded great results. It probably led to cr@ppy pickups as well. That led him to scatterwinding wich takes the good things from 'sloppy' winding while eliminating the bad.

Old pickups weren't wax potted either so they'll squeel like a pig on a modern amp and overdrive so today companies wax pot their pickups. It doesn't take away much of the tone.

TV jones found out much of the Filtertron's tone comes from the materials used back then and mostly the shape of the pole screws. Next he improved them by making the bridge pickups taller for better balance and correct string spacing.

Pedal makers found out that most of the tone from old Tube Screamers comes from THAT chip. Next they improved it with better caps n' stuff.

[Muttley]

p.s., On reflection, music is so evocative of youth and conjures up a lot of nostalgia. I don't think it's a huge coincidence that older generations are so obsessed with era correct gear harking back to the time of their youth is so common (and such a huge market). Give it another 30 years and people will be going crazy for a vintage C-Pig played through their axe-fx clone, so they can bust out some vintage djent (I really hate that word).

I think you're on to something there.  Most of the gear I'm hankering after is stuff that I really wanted but couldn't afford when I was first learning guitar, because it's stuff that was used on all my favourite albums at the time and that "tone" (for want of a better word) is how I like my guitars to sound.  :)

[HairyChris]

Interesting.

Anyone look at there being a difference between 'High End' and 'Boutique'?

IMO (and probably going to be flamed here :D ) there's a difference. I kind of agree with D&L that the trem 'Boutique' kind of implies searching for an idealised version of of x tone...

[indysmith]

I was thinking about this the other day;
Tone is subjective; at the end of the day it's just sound. What sounds good to you may sound horrendous to somebody else, although what is generally accepted as 'good tone' are the sounds that we grew up listening to on record.

Boutique gear manufacturers seem to mainly be in the business of recreating the 'vintage' gear that we hear on record with higher quality components, point-to-point wiring etc. as if the ultimate guitar tone is some sort of Hi-Fi aspiration. IT'S NOT. Guitar is distinctly low-fidelity; guitar amps are almost all based on very crude old stock circuits, driven into ridiculous amounts of distortion, and then plugged straight into a poorly thought out cabinet with any number of paper speakers in it with the most ridiculously inaccurate frequency response. And it sounds great!
Spend all the money you like on posh shiny pedals and amps, but in the end you're paying for the look and the 'vibe', not the sound. The greatest guitar tones IMO are extremely lo-fi, dirty, crude sounds, and the greatest guitarists do not play through hi-fi's :P