Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: hunter on July 06, 2009, 06:26:06 PM
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So, no discussion the player has most influence. But what is your own order of what has most impact on tone of all gear related components? Let's not look at FX as they are highly important for some players (Matt Bellamy) but not what I am looking at.
Let's say in a live scenario, where maybe not all details come across so well.
I would say (in order of descending importance and without effects):
1. Amp
2. Speakers/Cab
3. Pickups
4. Cable quality/signal chain purity
5. Guitar
6. Picks
7. Strings
How would you order the importance based on your experience?
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I see them all as equally important.
Although, I only aim for everything to be good/good+ quality and to be very reliable.
I couldn't really put any of those above another, if one goes it all goes.
Sound wise I'd have to group amp, speakers, pickups and guitar together and the rest being less important.
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I think if you have a guitar that you like then the amp speaker cable etc come after.
1 = Guitar
2 = Pick (I've only ever used jazz 3 and teardrops, I am useless with big picks)
3 = Amp
4 = Speakers/cab
5 = cables and FX
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I'd put them is the same priority as Hunter
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I think
Amp
Cab
Pickups and guitar I think of as rather inextricable, and they go here.
Strings
Speakers
Valves in the amp
cables
Pick
Subject to revision. Some things I'm not too sure about.
What I do know is that the most important thing is how they all work together.
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Hmm, my only doubts are that you put guitar below cable.
I can see your point, that if you have a cheap guitar Vs expensive guitar with same pickups + strings it won't be that noticable; but if its a different type of guitar e.g. Strat -> Les Paul with the same pickups and strings it would be more noticable and I would put it above cables in that instance.
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Do you mean the quality of the gear, i.e. a squire Telecaster V a Custom shop Telecaster.
Or the type of gear, say a Vintage Tele v a BC Rich.
If it's the latter guitar would definitely be top, if it's the quality I'll have to have a think.....
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Oh, and room and location in the room, both the amp/cab and you with respect to it. Put that above guitar on my list. Maybe above cab too.
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I'd say:
Amp
(Pickup choice of humbucker or single coil)
Speakers / cab (i think they are equal)
Pickups
Guitar type (LP/strat etc)
(I'll put in a 'quality of guitar' here, but in brackets, as I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the original question)
picks
cables
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What I do know is that the most important thing is how they all work together.
agreed. i think it's really too hard to say how big a difference each specific thing will make, and it also depends on if you're trying to get the natural voice of the instrument and amp, or trying to persuade it to sound like a different instrument.
Slightly off-tangent, but i really hate all those threads you see on forums where some smart-alec records a classic guitar and amp and tries to disguise what it really is, then when all the wrong answers come back says superciliously that gear doesn't matter... :evil: Not to mention, a lot of the differences are more apparent to the player than the listener- you can "feel" them, more than hear them.
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a lot of the differences are more apparent to the player than the listener- you can "feel" them, more than hear them.
I couldn't agree more Dave. This has been my experience, and that of Joe Bonamassa!
To answer Hunter's question, this is the order I would place things in their importance to me. I've also grouped a couple as I treat them as one thing:
1. Amp
2. Speakers and cab (the combination of)
3. Guitar and pickups (the combination of)
4. Picks / strings / cable quality
It doesn't matter what the guitar is, I still sound like me. I can play Enter Sandman on a Tele and you'd tell it was me, and it wouldn't sound that different to me playing it on a PRS to most people. It would feel really odd though!!!
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I think
Amp
Cab
Pickups and guitar I think of as rather inextricable, and they go here.
Strings
Speakers
Valves in the amp
cables
Pick
Subject to revision. Some things I'm not too sure about.
What I do know is that the most important thing is how they all work together.
That is of course assuming you are using a valve amp............
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I think
Amp
Cab
Pickups and guitar I think of as rather inextricable, and they go here.
Strings
Speakers
Valves in the amp
cables
Pick
Subject to revision. Some things I'm not too sure about.
What I do know is that the most important thing is how they all work together.
That is of course assuming you are using a valve amp............
Theres another kind? I'd forgotten.
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:lol:
There's only one kind worth having :)
( Oops! Apologies for the valve snobbery :oops: )
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Amp
then if you put enough gain on it nothing makes a difference. :)
Seriously though it depends on the gain and tone you go for.
With less gain I would say:
amp
fingers or plectrum attack
pickups and guitar equal
The rest make a less significant difference to me
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Amp
then if you put enough gain on it nothing makes a difference. :)
BURN THE WITCH!!
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He's absolutely right! Very, very good point Matt!
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He's absolutely right! Very, very good point Matt!
Says the man thats only just heard opeth - you know nothing of high gain!!
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I know what my levels of gain do, so at crazy high gain you might as well play a brick! :lol:
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While I do use less gain than you might expect, its just not true that nothing makes a difference. If anything the differences become more important. High gain tones are extremely hard to get right, keep clear and defined, ballanced, mix and...wait, youre not listening are you ;) minds made up. Ok :)
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There are so many variables this is extremely hard. I mean, if we're talking about people playing with a Marshall MG combo and an Encore strat then things go in a very different order than the guy with a Tom Anderson and Dumble.
What I'm positive of, if that ignoring the player and style, the volume and tone controls have more of an influence on tones than anything else.
And, seemingly, I'd put the amp lower than pretty much everyone else. :lol:
I tend to think that if you can't take a high gain amp with everything at 12 o'clock and get a perfectly usable tone for more or less any style with a strat then you should probably get practicing a lot more before you start chopping and changing all your gear, or your probably going to end up try to get sounds by thinking rather than listening.
Also, suggesting tons of gain means everything sounds the same and everything makes less of a difference is total nonsense. But not a sentiment that I'm surprised to hear on this forum :P
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I'm not really sure what I think about this topic, but if we're talking LIVE sound surely you also have to factor in the PA system and the acoustics of the room/hall.
I've hardly ever been to a gig where I've thought "wow, amazing tone". It's always too loud (yes, I'm too old) and usually I'm grateful if I can recognise the song through the swirling waves of distortion and noise. A lot of the time they could be playing a Chinese Squier through some wretched old tranny amp and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
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Many good points coming up here. I think very different points of view are all right. It completely depends on what you value for yourself as well I guess, and indeed, style can make a big difference. Jazz players sometimes play DI into the mixer, for them the Guitar is all I think.
I put cables and signal chain above the guitar as for example my PRS SE with BKPs versus my PRS McCarty with BKPs is less of an audible difference than if I have a sucking pedal or shitety cable in the signal chain.
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I've hardly ever been to a gig where I've thought "wow, amazing tone". It's always too loud (yes, I'm too old) and usually I'm grateful if I can recognise the song through the swirling waves of distortion and noise. A lot of the time they could be playing a Chinese Squier through some wretched old tranny amp and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
This I get. Irks the hell out of me.
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Many good points coming up here. I think very different points of view are all right. It completely depends on what you value for yourself as well I guess, and indeed, style can make a big difference. Jazz players sometimes play DI into the mixer, for them the Guitar is all I think.
I put cables and signal chain above the guitar as for example my PRS SE with BKPs versus my PRS McCarty with BKPs is less of an audible difference than if I have a sucking pedal or shiteeety cable in the signal chain.
Cables only take sound out, though. Once you hit a certain point in quality, theres little to no more difference to be had, and its quite an objectively measureable thing - the higher the capacitance and oxygen content of the cable, the more high end it sucks. You can like the sound of a "poorer" cable by all means, but they arent adding anything, and the difference is pretty one dimensional imo.
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Some interesting responses to this question.
For me it would be, without including effects:
Guitar/Pickups
Amp
Cables
Strings
Picks
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I think
Amp
Cab
Pickups and guitar I think of as rather inextricable, and they go here.
Strings
Speakers
Valves in the amp
cables
Pick
Subject to revision. Some things I'm not too sure about.
What I do know is that the most important thing is how they all work together.
That is of course assuming you are using a valve amp............
Theres another kind? I'd forgotten.
but wait wait wait!!! What if you have AxeFX and (heaven forbid) your playing through a monitor!?!?!?!?!
You have to think about these things people!
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Also, suggesting tons of gain means everything sounds the same and everything makes less of a difference is total nonsense.
But it does! :lol: It makes it sound all shiteeeeee!
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Also, suggesting tons of gain means everything sounds the same and everything makes less of a difference is total nonsense.
But it does! :lol: It makes it sound all shiteeeeeee!
:lol:
Get it righ'roun' ye.
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For me its something like:
Player
Speakers/cab
Amp
Guitar/pickups
Pedals
cables
picks
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Amp
then if you put enough gain on it nothing makes a difference. :)
Seriously though it depends on the gain and tone you go for.
With less gain I would say:
amp
fingers or plectrum attack
pickups and guitar equal
The rest make a less significant difference to me
I have to agree with this, though it may depend on the type of high gain amp...
I've A/B'd cheap cr@ppy guitars with expensive wonders and through gain on the same amp they've sounded identical. When clean or lightly crunchy they sounded worlds apart.
Thankfully, I care not for cleans :)
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I'm gonna stick to the 7 facors given or the list would become too complex.
1: amp
2: guitar
3: cab
4: pickups
5: strings
6: cable
7: pick
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I think
Amp
Cab
Pickups and guitar I think of as rather inextricable, and they go here.
Strings
Speakers
Valves in the amp
cables
Pick
Subject to revision. Some things I'm not too sure about.
What I do know is that the most important thing is how they all work together.
That is of course assuming you are using a valve amp............
Theres another kind? I'd forgotten.
but wait wait wait!!! What if you have AxeFX and (heaven forbid) your playing through a monitor!?!?!?!?!
You have to think about these things people!
Then it would be sth like:
Amp type
Cab IR
Monitor used
Pickup
Guitar
Pick
Cable
Or so ...
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Its interesting that you lot seem to put amp above guitar. I'd have thought that guitar would be the most important factor as its the direct interaction with the player. I'de rather play a great guitar through a marshall mg than a cr@p guitar through a nice boutique handwired job.
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Its interesting that you lot seem to put amp above guitar. I'd have thought that guitar would be the most important factor as its the direct interaction with the player. I'de rather play a great guitar through a marshall mg than a cr@p guitar through a nice boutique handwired job.
I know which one I'd rather listen too though..........
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And I know which one will sound the best...
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if people can't tell the difference between a telecaster and a les paul on led zeppelin recordings, i do wonder how much of a difference that makes really. i think that this particular case is down to the amp.
clearly one can hear the difference between and strat and a flying v through plexi amps on early scorpions recordings though
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a lot of the differences are more apparent to the player than the listener- you can "feel" them, more than hear them.
I couldn't agree more Dave. This has been my experience, and that of Joe Bonamassa!
To answer Hunter's question, this is the order I would place things in their importance to me. I've also grouped a couple as I treat them as one thing:
1. Amp
2. Speakers and cab (the combination of)
3. Guitar and pickups (the combination of)
4. Picks / strings / cable quality
It doesn't matter what the guitar is, I still sound like me. I can play Enter Sandman on a Tele and you'd tell it was me, and it wouldn't sound that different to me playing it on a PRS to most people. It would feel really odd though!!!
cheers, dave. Certainly I've heard shoot-out clips online where i'd have struggled to tell the difference between really different bits of kit, whereas if I'd been playing them it would've been a total no-brainer. :lol:
I'd agree with your list, but I'd probably switch #2 and #3. While I agree that speakers and cabs make a gigantic difference, to me swapping from, say, a strat to a les paul makes a bigger one. :) But again, swapping between two completely different styles of cabs and speakers probably makes a gigantic difference too, so I don't know. :lol:
Maybe it'd be a better idea to group the things which cause a really big difference together (amp, cab/speakers, guitar, pedals) and then those which cause a more subtle difference (strings, cables, etc.)?
Also, I make a distinction between "player" tone, and "gear" tone. :)
There are so many variables this is extremely hard. I mean, if we're talking about people playing with a Marshall MG combo and an Encore strat then things go in a very different order than the guy with a Tom Anderson and Dumble.
that's a very good point. Some people at another forum I go to (guess which one, mark) will tell someone who has a cr@p guitar and amp to get a new amp first, because it'll make the most difference. While this is true (assuming that cr@p guitar isn't unplayable, of course), once you actually get the better amp, it'll show up the limitations of that cr@ppy guitar more, and will show off much more of each guitar's characteristics. Those guitars which sounded almost identical through that spider III will now probably sound completely different. :)
I've hardly ever been to a gig where I've thought "wow, amazing tone". It's always too loud (yes, I'm too old) and usually I'm grateful if I can recognise the song through the swirling waves of distortion and noise. A lot of the time they could be playing a Chinese Squier through some wretched old tranny amp and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
definitely.
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Good points Dave. And what you're saying clearly says that the amp is the biggest single influencing factor on your tone.
With which I agree :)
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I've been thinking about this idea, and I've decided I don't care. I'm getting sick of the constant search for new gear and tones, it's so much hassle. And don't get me started on tone is in the fingers rubbish. A good guitar into a good amp, maybe via some good pedals will sound good. And right now that's all I care about.
Oh and I hope noone thinks i'm taking a dig at them, please continue the discussions (I love reading them, nothing else to do in my ten week holiday...) but for me I quit this tone hunt game. Until tomorrow when I decide that I really NEED a jazzmaster. Or a new strat. Or that Matchless DC30 clone. Or aaaaarrrgh.
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Until tomorrow when I decide that I really NEED a jazzmaster. Or a new strat. Or that Matchless DC30 clone. Or aaaaarrrgh.
Phew so there is still hope for you badger :O)
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Good points Dave. And what you're saying clearly says that the amp is the biggest single influencing factor on your tone.
With which I agree :)
:drink:
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how much importance do you guys place on the guitar's electronics (aside from the pickups)? such as the pots, capacitors, etc.
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Alot 8)
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how much importance do you guys place on the guitar's electronics (aside from the pickups)? such as the pots, capacitors, etc.
As long as they're good quality, not a lot! The voltages are so small it makes very little difference. Doesn't matter to me if it's a CTS pot, and Alpha pot or a non-name as long as it's around 500k and has a good audio taper.
I don't tend to use ceramic disc caps if I'm re-wiring tone controls, but I'm not bothered if it's an Orange Drop, a Hovland Musicap, Mallorys or an old paper in oil.
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I don't think there is a definitive answer - I think the order might be different for different players and different styles.
I remember reading an article by a roady who was looking after the equipment at one of the old Policeman's Ball Amnesty Concerts (c.1981) where Clapton, Beck and (I think) Page all did guest spots using the same Fender amp. He said that they virtually left the controls on the same setting but they all sounded different and you could immediately identify which one was playing - which would suggest that maybe the amp should not be top of the list?
On the other hand a couple weeks ago there was John Mayalls 70th birthday concert on Sky where Mayall's guitarist, Buddy Whittington, was playing a Strat through a Dr.Z and Clapton was also playing a Strat through a Fender amp. Clapton sounded absolute s**t compared to Buddy Whittington - which would suggest that maybe the amp is important.
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On the other hand a couple weeks ago there was John Mayalls 70th birthday concert on Sky where Mayall's guitarist, Buddy Whittington, was playing a Strat through a Dr.Z and Clapton was also playing a Strat through a Fender amp. Clapton sounded absolute s**t compared to Buddy Whittington - which would suggest that maybe the amp is important.
I think the Secret Policeman's Ball anecdote backs up the old principle of "it's the player, not the equipment". Which I know is getting away from the original question at the top of the thread.
But on the same principle, maybe if they'd swapped amps Whittington would still sound great and Clapton would still sound shite?
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I can see why you'd say that actually. But not many people listen to me play... :lol:
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What Phil says is right - player is the most important. We're talking about them out of the equation though, so to me it's amp next :D
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I remember reading an article by a roady who was looking after the equipment at one of the old Policeman's Ball Amnesty Concerts (c.1981) where Clapton, Beck and (I think) Page all did guest spots using the same Fender amp. He said that they virtually left the controls on the same setting but they all sounded different and you could immediately identify which one was playing - which would suggest that maybe the amp should not be top of the list?
But if they'd all used a cr@p they all would have sounded cr@p.
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I remember reading an article by a roady who was looking after the equipment at one of the old Policeman's Ball Amnesty Concerts (c.1981) where Clapton, Beck and (I think) Page all did guest spots using the same Fender amp. He said that they virtually left the controls on the same setting but they all sounded different and you could immediately identify which one was playing - which would suggest that maybe the amp should not be top of the list?
But if they'd all used a cr@p they all would have sounded cr@p.
So are you saying anyone who played through that amp would sound good? You've only got to look on YouTube to see examples of people who have bought some amazing bootik amps/guitars who sound absolute s**t and no amount of amps, speakers, cabs, picks, magic fairy dust will change that. (unless they are prepared to practice)
P.S. That doesn't mean I would not like to get my hands on one of your custom amps - just under no illusions that it would suddenly transform me into a guitar god :lol: :lol:
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I remember reading an article by a roady who was looking after the equipment at one of the old Policeman's Ball Amnesty Concerts (c.1981) where Clapton, Beck and (I think) Page all did guest spots using the same Fender amp. He said that they virtually left the controls on the same setting but they all sounded different and you could immediately identify which one was playing - which would suggest that maybe the amp should not be top of the list?
But if they'd all used a cr@p they all would have sounded cr@p.
So are you saying anyone who played through that amp would sound good? You've only got to look on YouTube to see examples of people who have bought some amazing bootik amps/guitars who sound absolute s**t and no amount of amps, speakers, cabs, picks, magic fairy dust will change that. (unless they are prepared to practice)
P.S. That doesn't mean I would not like to get my hands on one of your custom amps - just under no illusions that it would suddenly transform me into a guitar god :lol: :lol:
I think you have misunderstood me here — notwithstanding the title of this thread is "Gear elements and order of impact on pure guitar tone?".
Obviously no amount of gear will make a poor player sound great. Believe me I've heard some truly awful players make a terrible sound through good gear — I may even fall into that category myself. Note also I said good gear, NOT expensive gear.
Fender amps pre-1981 in good working order are great amps. When you have three great players playing through a great amp — as you had at the aforementioned gig — they will all sound great.
Conversely, if they had been playing through a terrible amp, they wouldn't have sounded as good. This is self evident.
In my experience if you have a poor amp, you won't get a good sound. Come and have a listen to the Sound City transistor practice combo in our workshop if you don't believe me.
The music equipment/ guitar industry relies on the fact that people keep buying new gear — as Andy who owns Angel Music said to me the other day "I can't understand how we can make living; surely there are enough guitars out there for everyone who wants one to have one?".
One way of getting people to buy new gear is to promote the idea that they need the latest guitar/ pedal/ amp etc to get a good tone.
All you really need is a decent guitar, decent amp and talent.
Sadly you can't buy the last item......
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Since most of my gear just IS me and im still searching for the ultimate bridge pickup and drive pedal i would say....
1. Pedal
2. Bridge pickup
:roll:
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What Phil says is right - player is the most important. We're talking about them out of the equation though, so to me it's amp next :D
yeah, agreed. if you ask me, the player is a given.
But if they'd all used a cr@p they all would have sounded cr@p.
So are you saying anyone who played through that amp would sound good? You've only got to look on YouTube to see examples of people who have bought some amazing bootik amps/guitars who sound absolute s**t and no amount of amps, speakers, cabs, picks, magic fairy dust will change that. (unless they are prepared to practice)
(I'm aware that he's already answered, and I agree with his reply- just adding this)
That's a false dilemma, though. Put the same player through good gear, and then through cr@ppy gear, and that player will sound and play better through the good gear. Neither the player nor the gear is exclusively responsible for the final tone.
Can a good player sound decent using pretty cr@ppy gear? Probably.
Will he/she enjoy using that cr@ppy gear? Probably not.
Will he/she sound (and play) better using good gear which he/she likes? Yes.
:)
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All you really need is a decent guitar, decent amp and talent.
Sadly you can't buy the last item......
Yes - I completely agree - I just feel that some people put too much emphasis on the first two and not enough on the last. I would certainly have included myself in that category when I started playing. Having owned some very decent gear over the years ('60s Gibsons, Fenders, Marshall Plexis, Orange Matamp) I have come to the same conclusion as you - "Sadly you can't buy the last item.."
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the players with cr@p finger tone who make any amp sound awful are probably thinking more about what they are playing rather than the sound they are making, so they don't know they sound cr@p :)
I remember playing my mates amp, he's only been playing for a year but I could hear some slight fizz, when I played I couldn't hear the fizz, but I was focused on the playing so I have no idea if my fingers "dialed" out the fizz or not
his cheap cable and pickups probably didn't help
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I have to correct my statements here.
I think what has the biggest impact are actually (besides fingers/playing)
-Settings of the amp
-Setup of the guitar
I think these are the things that usually are wrong if a guitar player sounds bad on stage.
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I still stand by the list I gave. It's all about the amp/cab first, then the guitar...
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Not forgetting the strap of course :D
(We were out starting the chrimbo shopping yesterday, and a nephew had made a request for a "cool (black leather) guitar strap..." ... how they hell we're gonna know what "cool" is to a 13 year old I dunno :lol: - he nearly got a pink fluffy one, it was still basically a leather strap, with a load of pink "fur" on it... but we decided not!)
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I need to revise my list
Amp
Settings
Location/room etc
Pickups
Guitar
Speakers
Cab
Strings
Cables
I will change my mind again in 5..4...3..
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i'm going to stick with what i originally said (what did i originally say? :lol: ), but add in the caveat that it depends on what type of music you're playing, and how well the gear you're currently using suits it. For example, if you're playing modern metal, and currently have, say, a mesa recto, changing to, say, a soldano avenger might make a slight improvement (or deterioration) of the tone, depending on the type of metal being played and the player's personal preference, but won't be an earth-shattering difference. But if that player were using, say, a jazzbox and then changed to an ESP or something, that'd make a major difference to the quality of the metal tone.
Each case on its own merits, in other words. :)
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Amp/speakers number one every time, I can gig any time with any good quality guitar (and have done) take away my amp of choice and my playing will suffer.