Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: mikey5 on August 14, 2009, 08:33:00 PM
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I am starting to look into materials for my first couple of guitar projects. I probably should start with pine or something (cause my first guitar will most likely be cr@p) I of course hope that if I really am careful I will come up with something decent.
but I figured that I would throw this out there for you all seeing as I am curious about it.
I found this interesting. I dont know what you guys think. I am a pretty hardcore fan of mahogany maple, but you guys tell me what you think
This clip below shows this fellow making a les paul style guitar with birch and spanish cedar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBRIByvwogY&feature=related
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cedar sounds very different from mahogany, imo
but it does have a good sustaining middy tone
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cedar sounds very different from mahogany, imo
but it does have a good sustaining middy tone
+1
it cuts well in the mids
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spanish cedar (cedrela) is not really a cedar, its a tradename for a wood that is part of the mahogany family
similar to mahogany and a good choice for guitars that we are going to see more of. infact it tends to be quite light and airy like good mahogany should be, a little more middy than bassy but a good choice
the wrong decision would be to walk down to B&Q and buy pine thinking your first guitar project deserves no better
good pine can work for guitars as has been proven. cheap fast grown pine never will. dont start with shite ingredients, all you will get is shite cake
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spanish cedar (cedrela) is not really a cedar, its a tradename for a wood that is part of the mahogany family
similar to mahogany and a good choice for guitars that we are going to see more of. infact it tends to be quite light and airy like good mahogany should be, a little more middy than bassy but a good choice
spanish cedar is just as cedar as the other species
all cedrela are in the meliaceae family (also called "mahogany family")
I don't think the spanish cedar (actually mexican cedar) might sound so different than the brazilian
this same species (cedrela odorata) exists here in brazil too and it's used by several brands and luthiers
it's called cedro rosa or cedro vermelho here
I had an early 90's Fender Southern Cross series Jazz Bass (Southern Cross was the brazilian Squier series, but with Fender logo) with a spanish cedar body
I traded a zoom 707 fx unit for it
best and most resonant 4 string bass I ever played! and this is coming from a Fender hater! :lol:
the resonance is similar to a good piece of alder, but very middy instead of scooped
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some cedro rosa guitar videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx4xpRWdh90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-cl7rNSqbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anh9KHkj0Ns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6eN8z4ygt8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZ7pC7IKqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7tqCqNDwkM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWO-y2-dmqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a5cr4fpxxs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEhq7WRXKkg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMDB0p-Yjbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bOHxMAk1ig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjvBz5bFvvE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmlaCJJD7Q0
cr@ppy quality videos, but enough to notice that it doesn't sound like alder, ash, mahogany, basswood or any other famous tone wood
it's brighter, more middy and less thick sounding than mahogany
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spanish cedar is just as cedar as the other species
all cedrela are in the meliaceae family (also called "mahogany family")
cedar (Cedrus) is a conifer from the Pinaceae family
as i said above, spanish cedar is a completely different type of tree (cedrela). all cedrela are in the meliaceae family (mahogany), so cedrela's are not true cedars
spanish cedar is not just as cedar as the other species. Its an accepted trade name for a mahogany like wood that is neither a cedar or spanish. Cedro rosa is another trade name for cedrela. trade names and wood types do vary around the world and between wood yards.
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spanish cedar is just as cedar as the other species
all cedrela are in the meliaceae family (also called "mahogany family")
cedar (Cedrus) is a conifer from the Pinaceae family
as i said above, spanish cedar is a completely different type of tree (cedrela). all cedrela are in the meliaceae family (mahogany), so cedrela's are not true cedars
spanish cedar is not just as cedar as the other species. Its an accepted trade name for a mahogany like wood that is neither a cedar or spanish. Cedro rosa is another trade name for cedrela. trade names and wood types do vary around the world and between wood yards.
the pinus cedar is usually called pinus here, not cedar
there is also cedrinho, that may refer to cedrela fissilis and to some Cupressaceae species
some amateurs use pinus or cedrinho, but they're not even appropriate for guitars
90% of the luthiers and big brands here use cedro rosa (spanish cedar) or marupá for the cheaper models (similar to pinus, very fragile, susceptible to damages, very poor sustain and sounds like shiteeee)
you'll rarely see a guitar made of pinus and being called cedar
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i thought it might be international confusion with the different names used around the world
the problem occurs when newby builders in the uk see spanish cedar being used and only pick up on the cedar word - go to a wood yard in the country and ask for cedar and you will be led to the wrong sort unless you specifically say spanish cedar.
i think we agree that whatever you want to call it, cedrela/spanish cedar is a perfectly good guitar building wood and a nice, middy substitute for mahogany
now go to australia and start asking for oak or ash, the first settlers there named all the native trees after the english trees they resembled so it can get a bit confusing. not even the same species or the same wood characteristics, and the trees dont always look that similar either :?
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They did the same with fish. They call grouper "cod", for no discernable reason (except maybe that they're both large edible fish) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_grouper
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Man you guys are awesome with your wood knowledge. Here in Mexico cedar is abundant. Should I look around here?
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Man you guys are awesome with your wood knowledge. Here in Mexico cedar is abundant. Should I look around here?
Mikey, I think you may be missing the point, I think Wez is saying that Spanish cedar is not to be confused with general cedar?
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most of the spanish cedar is extracted from mexico, anyway
it can't be that hard to find
it's VERY common here in brazil and that's why it's the most used wood for guitars here
good "honduras" mahogany is easy to find here to too, but WAY more expensive
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Mikey, I think you may be missing the point, I think Wez is saying that Spanish cedar is not to be confused with general cedar?
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No I dont think so these guys are talking Cedra Rosa (cedrela) right?? Well here in guadalajara we have an excellent selection. Is that what I should look for wood experts(Wez-Eric??
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There's a company called Ruokangas Guitars here in Finland http://www.ruokangas.com/ (http://www.ruokangas.com/). Excellent guitars, top notch quality.
Anyway, they use spanish cedar for their Duke model, which is going after an OLD les paul tone. The main man Juha Ruokangas has said that spanish cedar was the closest in sound to old mahogany that he found. It's also lighter, as like old LPs are.
-Zaned
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No I dont think so these guys are talking Cedra Rosa (cedrela) right?? Well here in guadalajara we have an excellent selection. Is that what I should look for wood experts(Wez-Eric??
yes cedrela (spanish cedar) is fine. i didnt realise you were actually in mexico when you started this thread!
for you its easy - your local wood place will have the right stuff
For us in the UK asking for cedar will give us a very different wood!
The confusion arrises in guitar talk because acoustics often use western red cedar (and a few other true cedars) for the top as an alternative to spruce. And with more electrics being built with spanish cedar the average punter may just assume 'cedar' is a good wood to build guitars with. It is, but you need to make sure you have the right cedar for the right job!
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Yea that guy Juha actually where the inspiration from this post comes from. I like to get as many opinions as possible. He just wrote this right now. Tell me what you all think I have heard the Cedrela Odorata before. Can anyone confirm that its the same thing as Cedra rosa?? The pain is the name differences I mean I could be looking for something with a totally different name. Anyway Hope I can get it all cleared up. But you all have spiked my interest
Master Juha speaking:
Hi again. I've studied the Spanish Cedar issue quite a lot... there are various stories of what exactly is that wood. Well, it's difficult to know precisely, but as far as I know, Spanish Cedar (Cedrela Odorata) is not a true cedar and definitely not from Spain. It comes from South America, is nowadays listed on CITES, and is becoming more and more difficult to get - at least for us in Europe. I don't know if Cedro Rosa is the same thing, haven't heard that name before. The challenging part is, that I know the Spanish Cedar I buy originates from several locations in South America, and even though it's all sold to me as Spanish Cedar, the quality varies very much, like there would be 2 or 3 different species in the lot sometimes... So, it takes a LOT of time and skills to learn to know what exactly is the best one for one's use. And for that I can't unfortunately give you instructions other than you need to go for it and see for yourself.
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Oh ok thanks yea I will look around I know cedra rosa is very common
Oh yea check this out. YESS I am so pleased thanks to all.
Cedrela odorata (Spanish cedar, Mexican cedar,) Thats from Wikipedia
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O cedro-cheiroso (Cedrela odorata), também conhecido pelos nomes vulgares de acaju, cedro-fêmea, cedro-rosa, cedro-espanhol, cedro-vermelho e cedro-mogno é uma árvore da família das meliáceas, com uma ampla distribuição natural, ocorrendo do México a Argentina. No Brasil ocorre na Floresta Atlântica, na Amazônia e mesmo na Caatinga.
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Thanks brother. Your the greatest
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O cedro-cheiroso (Cedrela odorata), também conhecido pelos nomes vulgares de acaju, cedro-fêmea, cedro-rosa, cedro-espanhol, cedro-vermelho e cedro-mogno é uma árvore da família das meliáceas, com uma ampla distribuição natural, ocorrendo do México a Argentina. No Brasil ocorre na Floresta Atlântica, na Amazônia e mesmo na Caatinga.
the "smelly" cedar (cedrela odorata), also know as acaju, female cedar, cedro rosa (pink/rose cedar), spanish cedar, red cedar and mahogany cedar is a tree of the meliacea family, with a wide natural distribution from Mexico to Argentina. in Brazil, it occurs in the Atlantic Forest, Amazon and even in the Caatinga (Brazil's northeast semi-arid regions)
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Right on. I wasnt trying to be cheeky in my last comment thats why I changed it sorry. Where in Brazil do you live? One last issue I have is what top wood I should combine it with. If this cedar odorata is already so bright than maple might push that a little too far I dont know what do you all think?
MIke
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Right on. I wasnt trying to be cheeky in my last comment thats why I changed it sorry. Where in Brazil do you live? One last issue I have is what top wood I should combine it with. If this cedar odorata is already so bright than maple might push that a little too far I dont know what do you all think?
MIke
lol no problem
I'm in Bahia
land of the "brazilian rosewood" (know here as jacarandá-da-bahia, but also found in a few other states)
a common choice for tops in custom made guitars here is imbuya (brazilian walnut)
it has a nice chocolate brown natural color and may have some really beautiful grain patterns, like flame, quilt, or just stained
it's a heavy, dark and smooth sounding wood
I had this les paul, with a simple non-stained piece of imbuya top:
(http://www.deanguitars.tv/userpics/lib9b/lpdavid.jpg)
but I guess it's easier to find figured pieces than a plain brown one
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAABMnx7VEgGeBm5vmsSBApRnhW3rHoXyu9Xj0vIZo0-0aF81I6w4cqcatCm0eWHh8tiGwklet_xlAJVsQHEjLG4gAm1T1UEfiLdaeeuHpm4J4NxlYIejTtwSe.jpg)
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAANnogEwhmtcFFG7pZyTtK1SvwZ5H3mbz8bJDG0qxFPA2ukN8E1pPL09m1FBYx0QUtburnd_GphPctmygM5mkOOUAm1T1UAUnD-EeYGh96TU12haKWmto9rmf.jpg)
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a common choice for tops in custom made guitars here is imbuya (brazilian walnut)
it has a nice chocolate brown natural color and may have some really beautiful grain patterns, like flame, quilt, or just stained
it's a heavy, dark and smooth sounding wood
imbuya is great stuff - i used it on a few of my early guitars and really liked the look.... more than that i really liked the smell. beautifully spicy smelling stuff
a really nice top choice actually, especially with the spanish cedar
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I don't often post in these wood threads.... but those Les Pauls look really sexy Eric...
Guess I might be an "imbuya" kinda guy.
Does the finished guitar still smell spicey? :lol: (guess not if there's a layer of finish on it...)
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unfortunately not, well at least not under oil or lacquer - it would if you left it raw
I had loads in the back of a car for an hour or two once, tehe smell lasted a week and was much better than any little paper tree air freshner
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I wonder if that imbuya wood is hard to find down here. I will look around. Thanks guys this is the ultimate wood thread. I think I will use the cedra rosa which is availiable here for starters. Its cheap so I dont have to start with pine. I guess I was looking at the exotic woods site and paying 70 usd for a body blank did not sound like a good deal considering that my first attempts at the guitar will not be stellar if sure. Anyway Another question. I have read a bit on drying out the wood. I could probably get them to do the kiln thing around here and jointed even but should I still let it sit somewhere under a light for a couple months. In vices
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Oh yea is there a web page where imbuya is sold? Oh by the way Wez and Eric I am curious are you guys full time guitar builders? or just as a hobby? I am obviously getting into it but I only have maybe 10 hours a week I could dedicate to it.
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i still have a full time job in a school and do it mainly evenings, weekends and school holidays
but i have been modding for about 13 years now, building for about 8 and am fast approaching my 40th complete guitar build
clearly no longer a hobby, but the other job keeps the bills payed
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Haha well I am sure with that much experience under your bet you could market it some way. Like put up a web site and sell guitars or completed necks or bodies for guitar projects. That guy Juha sells a ton of guitars a year for a high price. Im sure people would buy custom stuff from England (thats where your from right?)
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you misunderstand me. it is a business now (albeit a small one), people buy them and i make some profit and pay tax on it. - i am not a hobbyist any more thats just where it started about 8 years ago, its just not my main earner yet!
there is already many custom builders in the Uk all competing for a very small market... if i went full time it would be far too much stress for very little money. i would also have to limit the stuff i do now to more standard specifications to allow me to keep production going.
As it is i can have fun, experiment and put my all into every guitar and project without worrying about it paying the bills or when i am going to eat next.
Even luthiers that charge high prices are very rarely rich - people see the high price tag and overestimate the profit involved.
it also means i have more variety in my life, which is important to me - I enjoy working at a school and would probably become a hermit if i spent all week in a workshop with little human interaction.
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Very cool wow that does sound inspiring. I really am enjoying studying and hearing all that people have to teach about guitar work because it is certainly something I want to add to my life. Great