Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Jonny on September 09, 2009, 12:29:15 AM
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Is it just me or have that shot up? I calculated a custom body & neck for $1200.00, and it was barely anything fancy. Choosing something similar from the Showcase got me like half the price.
:?
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Is it just me or have that shot up? I calculated a custom body & neck for $1200.00, and it was barely anything fancy. Choosing something similar from the Showcase got me like half the price.
:?
Depends on what you're going to order and which item on showcase it is... If it's on "Screaming Deals", means that it's on Showcase for a long while and it's one "sale" with price reduced...
What are you planning? I can help you with prices etc... I have seen the tables so many times that I almost know they all :lol:
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Mark Jenny body + usacg neck cost $875 including shipping.
Both are finished and the neck has the upgrades of 1/4 sawn, SSfrets and graphite rods.
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On the Warmoth site, if you configure an unfinished body or neck with standard woods, the price seems to come out the same as the Showcase.
But the things which really seem to add to the cost are:
Finishes
"Unique choice" tops or fingerboards
Neck shapes like SRV, Clapton, Wolfgang and '59 Roundback
In the Showcase they don't really pass those costs on - finished bodies are never $185 more than unfinished ones, and an SRV neck will usually be the same price as a standard shape.
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Yes, I agree with Philly, but I can't remember seen a body or neck just added to showcase costing half of what it would cost new, not counting if it had a mistake or was listed for a loooooong while...
What are you looking for Jonny?
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I've been on the lookout for a nice Tele neck, but when I configure one it costs at least $100 more than the same thing would normally cost in the Showcase.
So I'll just have to wait, they say patience is a virtue....
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Curse you Lew! USACG have some cool new options since I last visited, now I'm GASsing for a couple of Teles :(
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:D
Slight derail about the options - I'm a bit concerned the graphite rods will make it neck heavy. But, even if it does it'll be a small price to pay. After having the Vigier I don't like the idea of a single trussrod guitar without in the very least graphite reinforcement. It's really made me aware of how much my other necks have moved.
The new Fender Wolfgangs do the graphite rods too and I think Wez has mentioned using it to support a neck too, could be wrong though.
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Slight derail about the options - I'm a bit concerned the graphite rods will make it neck heavy.
Never got one of these rods in hand, but I doubt it'll make such difference... I don't see things like a little more weight will turn sudenlly a guitar in neck heavy... think it's something way more "gross" than "tight" difference...
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it depends on the blend of graphite, but it can be quite lightweight.
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I thought graphite reinforcing rods were pretty lightweight? Could be wrong though.
They seem to be a lot more common in basses than guitars - American Fender basses have them for sure.
I know the trussrod in the Warmoth Pro necks is heavier than the one in the Vintage Modern/Total Vintage necks. Only a couple of ounces or so, but enough to make a difference on something like a Thinline.
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I know the trussrod in the Warmoth Pro necks is heavier than the one in the Vintage Modern/Total Vintage necks. Only a couple of ounces or so, but enough to make a difference on something like a Thinline.
I wonder where you got that info from ;)
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I know the trussrod in the Warmoth Pro necks is heavier than the one in the Vintage Modern/Total Vintage necks. Only a couple of ounces or so, but enough to make a difference on something like a Thinline.
I wonder where you got that info from ;)
:lol: I know you changed the neck on yours! But it was already something I'd been thinking about, having personal experience of a neck-heavy Thinline.
I think I'd go Vintage Modern in preference to Warmoth Pro anyway, I prefer the headstock-end trussrod adjustment and with maple boards I'd rather have a one-piece neck than a separate fingerboard.
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When I was reading about the necks I read alot of complaints that the Warmoth 2-way truss sounds like poop too (?).
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i dont buy that most people can hear the difference between rods. sure, the 2 way one have two rods welded together so they are just a bit less than double the weight of a vintage one and it will make a difference... but to say it sounds bad is just vinatge mojo talking
graphite bars used for this are quite lightweight and the natural variation in wood can cause just as much difference
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When I was reading about the necks I read alot of complaints that the Warmoth 2-way truss sounds like poop too (?).
I read this only in the USACQ forum, to be fair...
I'm on the Warmoth forum for about 3 years and never heard a guy saying that bought a neck and it sounds not good because of the truss rod
PS: Only read Wez post now and I quite agree with him!
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No worries, I read some of it at TGP and people there do often have agendas going on.
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I just sent a quote to USACG, I'm actually quite excited to see if it's close, good/bad.
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I just sent a quote to USACG, I'm actually quite excited to see if it's close, good/bad.
From what I've heard, USACG basic prices are a bit more than Warmoth, but they don't charge extra for the personalised extras. If that makes any sense....
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I just sent a quote to USACG, I'm actually quite excited to see if it's close, good/bad.
From what I've heard, USACG basic prices are a bit more than Warmoth, but they don't charge extra for the personalised extras. If that makes any sense....
I think that's better than Warmoth surely?
You could have a basic Strat, 3 SCs, Vintage Trem, maple/rosewood or maple Fender neck and it that'd be the right price but surely anyone would want a little difference like binding or anything they offer. It's nice they make it easy but not nice that you really have to be basic just to get a good price.
Or so I think.
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Yeah, if you're ordering a custom piece you might as well go with USACG I guess.
Me personally, I'm cautious about buying something I haven't actually seen, so I keep watching the Showcase. Something'll turn up eventually!
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I think for basic orders Warmoth are better priced. But, when you start adding options their price starts scaling alot faster than usacg and can possibly end up costing more.
The Warmoth neck was $419, where as the very similar usacg neck was $480.
But when you consider what I got for the extra $61 - 1/4 sawn maple, graphite rods, rolled fingerboard, to specify the wood grain, choose either nitro or poly finish, half the build time and faster shipping it doesn't seem like a big deal. I'd have ordered those options from Warmoth too if I could.
Warmoth charge for daft things like $15 for no butt holes and $35 for a straight radius + different back shapes at $35 :? :?
I don't have a problem ordering unseen A) because of the reputation and B) because they go through every detail with you like a trainspotter. When I ordered the neck I specifically asked them to find me the most boring and straightest grained maple with as little grain run out as possible... and it was no big deal. But with Warmoth, what you get is luck of the draw unless you go showcase.
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I don't have a problem ordering unseen A) because of the reputation and B) because they go through every detail with you like a trainspotter. When I ordered the neck I specifically asked them to find me the most boring and straightest grained maple with as little grain run out as possible... and it was no big deal. But with Warmoth, what you get is luck of the draw unless you go showcase.
Did you order by phone? What were they like to deal with? I'm a bit phone-phobic.
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I started it off with e-mail but rang em so I could better articulate what I want + they were slow with e-mails.
They were amazing to work with, I've not got the neck yet so can't comment first hand on quality. But, I can't give them enough praise for the service. I was chatting to Rob for ages because he was so easy to get on with and it wasn't a case of just giving him the specs. We went through what my choices meant in terms of playability, tone, reliability. I'm not afraid to ask questions when I dont understand something :lol: He took about 15 minutes alone chatting to me about frets to make sure I got the right ones.
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Warmoth charge for daft things like $15 for no butt holes and $35 for a straight radius + different back shapes at $35 :? :?
That's because they need to re-program the CNC machines or make it by hand... That get things longer, but I don't think it's really that expensive...
About the wood figuring/grain... Is a real problem to me to as I'm really picky about, but I understand that there is a difference in "getting the first in the bunch" and "searching one with X, Y, Z looking..."
They don't do it, unfortunately... I'm one that really wants it...
The major rule on Warmoth is: wanna get a simple strat with maple / maple+ rosewood / maple + pau ferro / maple + ebony neck?? Go showcase... Wanna something more detailed? go custom order...
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That's because they need to re-program the CNC machines or make it by hand... That get things longer, but I don't think it's really that expensive...
surely they only have to do that once!! as soon as you have the cnc programmed for the different neck shapes, radii or different holes then its no more difficult than doing it standard!!
so warmoth charge $35 for every non-standard neck shape even though the manufacturing process and material cost will be identical to a standard neck shape
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Yeah, the only Warmoth upcharge I really resent is the $35 for different neck shapes - why should I pay more just because I like the '59 roundback, when it can't possibly cost any more to manufacture than a Fatback or Standard Thin? :x
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That's because they need to re-program the CNC machines or make it by hand... That get things longer, but I don't think it's really that expensive...
surely they only have to do that once!! as soon as you have the cnc programmed for the different neck shapes, radii or different holes then its no more difficult than doing it standard!!
so warmoth charge $35 for every non-standard neck shape even though the manufacturing process and material cost will be identical to a standard neck shape
What I tried to say is: he's asking something OUT of the normal program and then they'll need to re-program it...
Example the straight radius on fingerboard... They have already programed it to be 10"-16", to make it straight 12" I think they need to re-program
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yes, but they have that program already sorted so only need to reload it before starting the CNC running.
they do no more work to switch to a custom neck shape than they do to switch between the standard neck shapes - its just reloading the relevant program. the custom neck shapes are no more out of the normal program than a fat or boat neck which you dont get charged for. each customer gets charged $35 a go and i bet they do them all the same time to save reloading the program so its not like its 5 minutes changover (generous estimate) between programs for each neck
same for the fretboards, although i assume they get less requests for custom radii than they do custom neck shapes so a small charge is acceptable as the time to switch for a small number of necks should be taken into account
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the neck back I too agree that probably isn't big thing but I'm uncertain about the radius... anyway I've a very very very little experience with CNC and know very little about, how much programs you can have at same time, etc...
You must be right
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So what you're saying Wez is that it's 'remembered' each shape, you just need to tell you to remember which one and presto. Unlike what I think Fernando thinks they do by re-programming and setting it all up again.
By the way I got my email back from USACG and they gave me a quote of $195.00, I forgot to add a neck and a finish so.. sorry, lol
With a finish of ($240), it comes out to $435 which is approx. $35 cheaper than Warmoth and I say approximately because I couldn't get Warmoth to do a H-x-H configuration.
Here's my spec:
Body Style: S, Top Route
Body Wood: Alder with Swamp Ash top
Not Hollow
H-x-H
V-T-T
5-way switch
Hipshot Babygrand Bridge or American Hardtail Strat Bridge
S-style Recessed Jack
Contoured Heel
And if I wanted it completely custom, i.e. clear binding. then I'd still be better off by $20 with USACG.
$390 for a Flame Maple/Ebony neck (USACG), or $7 more (roughly) but with a few things cause USACG isn't that clear for nuts, etc.
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I'm guessing, from what Wez sez, that you can save the settings on a PC, and then load em up again... in which case, if that is what they're doing, then yeah, does seem like money for old rope to charge extra...
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essentially yeah.
tbh i dont see it as being more difficult than making sure the neck blank is in on the CNC bed correctly aligned and then running the appropriate program - but who knows, maybe there is extra setting up. even so, that should only occur on the first neck of a batch of the same neck shape and there is still no reason for a srv to cost more than a fat
fretboard radius is different because it affects all the fretwork too so thats another process that will be altered
i havnt used cnc and i dont claim to be an expert. but my understanding is that most of the work goes into the programming, that takes a lot of work and skill. once thats done you have that program to run at any time!!
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So what you're saying Wez is that it's 'remembered' each shape, you just need to tell you to remember which one and presto. Unlike what I think Fernando thinks they do by re-programming and setting it all up again.
Yea, surely once it's been entered and saved it just needs to be loaded in? It would be a bit shite otherwise?
Sorry Fernando, I wasn't slagging off Warmoth I was just saying how I see it. It's nothing to do with the actual product :) I'm still sore about the $80 I was charged for canceling the order too!
If Wez or Legra were able to get the work done before xmas then it would've been a no brainer. But I'm impatient and they were busy for the forseeable! 8)
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Yeah, I agree with you all, what I don't know is how much is the limit of programs loaded on on machine... If they can save ALL options of the website on the machine, then it's buggery to ask extra $ for doing the "custom neck backs" or straight radius... I guess they can't save all information and have to change a little the program when these orders are made or they're bar-stewards for asking $ for what isn't necessary :lol:
PS: to let things clear, I'm not taking things clear, I was just saying what I *think* what's more ideas than known things...
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Something that I forgot to add:
I had the same problems with the "extra money" than you guys had, untill I finally accept that Warmoth is very "production line" oriented instead of "luthier care", that we want (me included), that is the guy have a look a every single detail etc...
It won't happen soon at Warmoth, if you order anything, they'll go to the pile of wood you've asked and get the FIRST on the top... won't search for specific grains or figuring... They had this service before the Unique Choice, but it was really expensive, like US$100 more... I don't think they have it now, with the last talks I had with the guys there...
USACQ seems to be more luthier oriented, guys trying to get exactly the piece you want etc...
My things with them is the website, who is very poor, the few exotic woods they have, no 5A maple, no headstock veneer... plus the headstock, Cooperhead says its bigger than the actual Fender headstock and 10min sanding/cutting you get the original shape, I'm not sure, would have to see it, for the pics it seems just the same size with different shape...
I sent them a email, but Tommy was in vacation and the guy who answered me didn't give me a guarantee that I could change it to the real Tele headstock...
But I really like their approach... Warmoth is very good at what they do, but they're very reluctant in change things, so, if you find what you want simple in the website: great... if not, probably will be a pain to get that...
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yes, but they have that program already sorted so only need to reload it before starting the CNC running.
they do no more work to switch to a custom neck shape than they do to switch between the standard neck shapes - its just reloading the relevant program. the custom neck shapes are no more out of the normal program than a fat or boat neck which you dont get charged for. each customer gets charged $35 a go and i bet they do them all the same time to save reloading the program so its not like its 5 minutes changover (generous estimate) between programs for each neck
same for the fretboards, although i assume they get less requests for custom radii than they do custom neck shapes so a small charge is acceptable as the time to switch for a small number of necks should be taken into account
Er, having had some experience of high volume manufacture; if you break a production run to add any sort of variable it adds complexity. The unique neck, body, car or fridge specification has to be loaded into the production schedule, the correct materials have to be picked and scheduled into the right slot and the unique part has to be individually tracked and handled. This, unfortunately, costs money. In any manufacturing process complexity costs money. Warmoth turn out guitar parts by the thousand for manufacturers and retailers, as well as us enthusiasts, to a well ordered and preplanned schedule; any disruption to that costs them money. For the amount of manufacturing flexibility they offer thirty five bucks is really cheap.
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i know that bob, but thats why i am still wondering why its ok to switch between standard and fat/boat necks for nothing but not standard to SRV or any one of the extra priced custom shapes
i can order a one off neck from them that completely messes with the large production thing in almost every feature (and will pay extra for it)... then i can specify 3 neck shapes for no extra cost and a few extra neck shapes for $35 extra.
i still dont see how that extra $35 is justified, especially since they will be doing a large number of that particular neck shape in any given period so any custom order can be added to that batch
i will say one thing, its never been enough to put me off paying it ;)
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Something that I forgot to add:
I had the same problems with the "extra money" than you guys had, untill I finally accept that Warmoth is very "production line" oriented instead of "luthier care", that we want (me included), that is the guy have a look a every single detail etc...
It won't happen soon at Warmoth, if you order anything, they'll go to the pile of wood you've asked and get the FIRST on the top... won't search for specific grains or figuring... They had this service before the Unique Choice, but it was really expensive, like US$100 more... I don't think they have it now, with the last talks I had with the guys there...
USACQ seems to be more luthier oriented, guys trying to get exactly the piece you want etc...
My things with them is the website, who is very poor, the few exotic woods they have, no 5A maple, no headstock veneer... plus the headstock, Cooperhead says its bigger than the actual Fender headstock and 10min sanding/cutting you get the original shape, I'm not sure, would have to see it, for the pics it seems just the same size with different shape...
I sent them a email, but Tommy was in vacation and the guy who answered me didn't give me a guarantee that I could change it to the real Tele headstock...
But I really like their approach... Warmoth is very good at what they do, but they're very reluctant in change things, so, if you find what you want simple in the website: great... if not, probably will be a pain to get that...
It's not a Fender so why would you want a Fender headstock? I certainly wouldn't want that. usacg will cut the headstock to whatever shape you like within reason but obviously they're not going to exactly copy another makers headstock. Warmoth of-course pay Fender to use the headstocks but tbh I always find it bizzare that people put these things together and try their hardest to make it like a Fender. Just get a Fender instead, they make great guitars and probably cheaper than a quality build :D
I don't think the site is too bad but Warmoth does have an exceptional website. Grading wood with *5AA etc is a very misleading sales tactic. There's no universal method and X companies AA figure can be a much higher grade than Y companies AAAAA figure.
I don't think I've seen pics of your builds Fernando, show em :D
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i know that bob, but thats why i am still wondering why its ok to switch between standard and fat/boat necks for nothing but not standard to SRV or any one of the extra priced custom shapes
Probably a stupid suggestion, but maybe they have 3 neck machines, of which one is normally set to Fat, one to Boat and one to Standard Thin? Then if you want another shape they have to reset one of the three?
Sounds unlikely doesn't it? :?
Warmoth of-course pay Fender to use the headstocks but tbh I always find it bizzare that people put these things together and try their hardest to make it like a Fender. Just get a Fender instead, they make great guitars and probably cheaper than a quality build :D
For me personally: I like the way "normal" Strats and Teles look, but:
1. Almost every Fender outside the custom shop has either a V neck or a skinny C neck - I don't like either.
2. Most Fender bodies are multi-piece, and if they're natural finishes the grain matching is terrible.
3. You can pick up two "identical" Teles and one will weigh 7.5 pounds, the other 9 or more.
With parts guitars you can control the variables, simple as that. Of course it doesn't guarantee they'll sound good.
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Well, I don't try to make them be a fender, I just like the shape of the headstocks, don't know why, but Fender and Gibson headstocks are there for over 50 years and are standards now, IMO (not the lawyers, for sure :lol:) and a LP or Strat, Tele must have them to look like a Strat or Tele...
My tele has the original headstock but looks nothing like a Fender:
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15296.0
About the woods: I agree the 5A Gibson uses isn't like the 5A I've in my mind, but Warmoth, USACQ, woodsuppliers KNOW what I mean when I ask 5A, if they don't understand I say "give me it in museum grade" :lol:
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i know that bob, but thats why i am still wondering why its ok to switch between standard and fat/boat necks for nothing but not standard to SRV or any one of the extra priced custom shapes
Probably a stupid suggestion, but maybe they have 3 neck machines, of which one is normally set to Fat, one to Boat and one to Standard Thin? Then if you want another shape they have to reset one of the three?
Sounds unlikely doesn't it? :?
i really dont know whats most likely. obviously its easy to criticise when i dont have to worry about it. but whears you can see the extra cost invloved in most options this one does irk me slightly
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If their machines were constantly churning out necks 12 hours a day then there would be an argument for charging for stopping the line, but I doubt they're producing that kind of volume, and more importantly, the charge for the "custom" neck profiles is significantly more than the cost for a non fender headstock shape (just as much stoppage time).
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i know that bob, but thats why i am still wondering why its ok to switch between standard and fat/boat necks for nothing but not standard to SRV or any one of the extra priced custom shapes
i can order a one off neck from them that completely messes with the large production thing in almost every feature (and will pay extra for it)... then i can specify 3 neck shapes for no extra cost and a few extra neck shapes for $35 extra.
i still dont see how that extra $35 is justified, especially since they will be doing a large number of that particular neck shape in any given period so any custom order can be added to that batch
i will say one thing, its never been enough to put me off paying it ;)
I see what you mean Wez, I appreciate that I was talking in very general terms. May be the necks in question need a fixture or tool change or maybe a programing option loaded up. When I was looking round for someone to do a CNC run of bodies and necks it became apparent that a lot of the stored programs they have come from a menu, i.e. select body shape, select front or rear rout, select bridge rout etc. So there is never a complete product stored as a one off push the button and go option. Maybe that's where their complexity lies.