Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: sambo on September 22, 2009, 01:55:02 PM
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Hello chaps, long time no see :)
Been lurking a bit on here recently and a couple of guitar-related questions are on my mind.
For those of you who've played Feline's, Legra's, Blackmachine's e.t.c. and some of the high end production guitars like Vigier, Suhr, Anderson, Tyler (PRS dare I say it), is there a significant, and more importantly worthwhile, difference in quality with the customs?
A more general question related to that- is there a point at which guitars can get no better in the way they play and sound? (Particularly play). I.e. is there a £1500 guitar which plays as well as a £2000 guitar? Where is the cut-off point in terms of quality?
This may all seem a bit wishy washy and needless, but I'm trying to decide on what route to go down for my next guitar and it's proving really difficult to decide.
Any info much appreciated as always.
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I think custom guitars would be better value becuase you are not paying for the name so for example I would imagine a Bravewood Tele would be comparable with a CS Fender Relic.
So custom advantages, built to your spec, individual, dream guitar
Top brand, It's got the name, the vibe of the original and it has a good resale value.
You can only take quality so far once the thing is being hand built by experts.
Another thing about custom builds is that you could have a 3 wolve and moon design airbrushed onto the body, try and get that from Fender :)
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Eh up Sam :)
It all depends on your definition of "quality". If you're talking build quality and overall finish, then I wouldn't say my PRS Modern Eagle is noticeably better than my PRS McCartys. It's not any better than the Feline Lions or Suhrs I've played either. Hell, my old Squier CV Tele at £350 was pretty darn close to perfect, with the exception of cheaper electronics.
You get to a certain level, i.e. excellent, and you can't get any higher regardless of whether they're a custom or production build and that cut off depends on manufacturer and price. Using Fender as an example, it's Custom Shop entry level in my opinion as the build quality and tone doesn't improve much any higher than that.
Where I find the higher end guitars win out in general is in their feel. Totally subjective and it varies from guitar to guitar and player to player. For example - myself and Ian Price love my Modern Eagle, but MartinW is indifferent to it.
I have a mixed view on custom builds, as I've said on here before. The resale on them is terrible, and they might not turn out how you'd hope. However, you can get the specs exactly to suit you.
If you have very exacting requirements, that you can't get from an off-the-shelf guitar, then custom is clearly the way to go. If you're thinking of going custom for some perceived extra 'quality' of some sort, then I'm not sure that's the right decision.
Just to confuse you even further, my WezV built custom La Cabronita (costing under £1000) plays as well as my £4500 Modern Eagle - both are EXTREMELY slick. Never underestimate the value of a good setup, fret dress and neck edge rolling when it comes to playability...
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I think custom guitars would be better value becuase you are not paying for the name so for example I would imagine a Bravewood Tele would be comparable with a CS Fender Relic.
bravewood far better!
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myself and Ian Price love my Modern Eagle
and your CS Tele and my CS Esquire!
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Martin likes my Tele too, that one's just universally loved :lol:
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bravewood far better!
Better can be subjective though and will vary by guitar. You can't just make sweeping statements like that :)
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Just to confuse you even further, my WezV built custom La Cabronita (costing under £1000) plays as well as my £4500 Modern Eagle - both are EXTREMELY slick. Never underestimate the value of a good setup, fret dress and neck edge rolling when it comes to playability...
So the million dollar question then, is why have you got a £4500 modern eagle?
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bravewood far better!
Better can be subjective though and will vary by guitar. You can't just make sweeping statements like that :)
I just did :lol:
(but of course you are right - I just prefer the Bravewoods I've tried to the Fender CS Relics I've tried)
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Dave makes good points, but theres a lot more than just quality to think about.
In terms of quality my Legra and my Dean custom (since sold) were very similar. Legra took it, but the dean was very well made (albeit from lesser woods, but still very good - the only objective flaw with the guitar was the nut was a little too high: easily fixed).
But I sold the dean because I didnt get on with some things about the design. Subjective matters that dont reflect on dean. The same has been true with various top end guitars I've played; considering only the quality if assembly and finish - jackson soloists (great, but I dont like painted necks), top end RGs (great but I cant be arsed with another floyd-a-like), SOME top end gibsons (dont like the scale or shape enough to shell out that sort of money, do like it enough to have an Epi LP kicking around), top end ESPs (mix and match all of the above). I've also seen some shockingly ropey guitars from Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Caparison (only one, admitedly) and others (both good and bad), so I think max quality is possible with an off the shelf guitar, but far from certain at any price. Thats not the case with customs (in theory at least)
Which is a huge part of what Custom is about: getting exactly the guitar you want. Which forces me to make a deliniation in custom shops, into Bespoke and Custom:
Bespoke - Legra, Wez, Rek, Feline (?) etc: you get whatever you want.
Custom - You get a guitar built specifically for you, to order (so its custom) and its customisable, but you have to buy into a particular line of guitars that that maker thinks is The Ultimate Guitar (or is a slightly different and marketable idea) - Blackmachine, Organic, Driskill, etc. You dont get whatever you want. You get a custom built and possibly customised version of their line of guitar.
In terms of cost, I think you get much better from Custom and Bespoke guitars, for various reasons, one of which is the lack of name (but then you have Name Customs and Bespoke guitars like Conklin and Alembic, that charge SERIOUS money)
There is a cutoff to guitar quality - how well put together one can be, and many off the shelf gutiars hit it at around £500, or even less. Materials are a different matter, because there are pseudo objective measures (like grade, sg, grain density, oil and moisture content) and subjective (what they sound like when a certain guitar is made from them) and asthetic value. Then you have distinctive peices of exotic woods that are really quite hard to price, or evaluate the value of to any given person - they can be very pretty, very unique, but the complex grain patterns wrecks the structural intetgrity of the woods and makes them tonally useless to boot, so 'quality' is subjective there again.
Long story short, theres a point where a guitar just cant be perceptibly better assembled and superior wood (by any objective measure) cant be found and both top end production, and custom and bespoke guitars hit that point, but not with equal consistency. I think that if you can find what you want in an off the shelf guitar then its entirely possible that that guitar can also max out any possible objective measure of guitar quality, but theres always a chance (whatever chance it may be) that even top end off the shelf guitars from the same factory will be flawed or outright cr@p. Customs and Bespokes are very consistently high quality and you know the materials in them are what they're supposed to be (not like "African mahogany", for example), you know its all going to be made and finished to near as well as a human hand and eye can manage (all things being equal, from reputable and skilled builders like the ones mentioned above), but there the drive isnt high quality, thats just a given, or should be, its getting the exact guitar you want. Apples and oranges.
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Great post Mark. Some top info there.
So the million dollar question then, is why have you got a £4500 modern eagle?
I have the Modern Eagle for several reasons:
* I fell in love with them the first time I saw one
* The spec suits me perfectly (twin cutaway, scale length, woods)
* I'm lucky enough to be able to afford one
But most importantly:
* It's the best sounding and feeling humbucker loaded guitar I've ever played
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Very helpful so far guys keep it coming.
Mark I've probably asked you this before, but if you don't mind how much did your Legra set you back?
I have the Modern Eagle for several reasons:
* I fell in love with them the first time I saw one
* The spec suits me perfectly (twin cutaway, scale length, woods)
* I'm lucky enough to be able to afford one
But most importantly:
* It's the best sounding and feeling humbucker loaded guitar I've ever played
^That bit is I suppose what I'm trying to decipher. And I have reservations about going custom because my reference point would be production-model guitars: I feel like if I asked Bob or Jonathan for "basically a PRS Swampash Special" the end result may not be what I was hoping for, as a PRS SAS is a PRS SAS and a Feline copy will always be just that.
Such a hard decision!
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Why are you considering a custom build? Different specs? Or just because you think it'll be 'better'?
If it's the latter, you'd be better off trying out as many PRS SASs that you can get your hands on and buying the one that speaks to you.
If you want a PRS SAS, buy a PRS SAS.
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Why are you considering a custom build? Different specs? Or just because you think it'll be 'better'?
If it's the latter, you'd be better off trying out as many PRS SASs that you can get your hands on and buying the one that speaks to you.
If you want a PRS SAS, buy a PRS SAS.
I don't really know why I'm considering a custom. Perhaps just because it's there and I would hate to spend such a large sum of money on something without evaluating all the options.
I may even be able to get an SAS (or something very similar) for LESS money if I went with Bob or Wez.
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I don't really know why I'm considering a custom. Perhaps just because it's there and I would hate to spend such a large sum of money on something without evaluating all the options.
If I was in your boat, I'd go on holiday. :lol: Failing that though, I'd go with Twinfan and try as many SAS's as possible. If you don't want one of them then go for a custom.
I kind of see production guitars as a commodity which can be bought and sold, but if I was after a guitar to do what I wanted and that I was going to stick with for the rest of my days, then I'd go custom. Well actually, I'd make it myself, but that's just me.
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Another thing that infuences the price is labour.
A Tele is significantly easier and quicker to make than an arch top hollow body.
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I was kind of in the same boat as you when I made my decision to make a custom order. I always wanted a Fender CS Esquire and was trying one out at my local store a few months back and needless to say I loved it. At the time I couldn't afford the CS Esquire and I was also thinking to myself while playing it that I think the guitar would sound great with a humbucker. Thats when I got the idea to contact Wez to order a custom built Esquire, I could have a humbucker equiped Esquire and I also chose a design that represents me as a person too (Celtic FC football supporter ;)). So all in all I'm getting the design I wanted, the specs I wanted and it works out much cheaper than the Fender CS.
I do agree with what Twinfan says though. You are best to try out the guitar that you would like first though before making your decision.
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GAS? ;)
http://www.guitars4you.co.uk/guitars/2692.htm
(http://www.guitars4you.co.uk/guitars/2692.jpg)
(http://www.guitars4you.co.uk/guitars/2692a.jpg)
(http://www.guitars4you.co.uk/guitars/2692b.jpg)
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^Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh! So incredibly nice.
I'm still deciding which is my favourite finish. This is amazing, from Machinhead:
(http://machinehead.co.uk/images/nswamp-2-lg.jpg)
And this is an alternative Vigier with a similar spec (considerably cheaper though):
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4962/p1030157dn1.jpg)
Keep the thoughts coming chaps.
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Having an early Patrick Eggle Berlin, I would say to have a go on one of them too........ and then you could still afford to go on holiday :lol:
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I've heard lots and lots of good things about Eggle. Weirdly I met Mr.Eggle's current business partner down the pub the other day!! How weird is that? Quite an interesting chap he was indeed.
Anyway, I must confess I don't HAVE £2000 ready to spunk on a guitar! Rather, I've recently got a job and I'm considering the Arts Council "Take It Away" scheme. You pay for an instrument in 10% monthly payments (0% interest), and take the guitar away same day.
Even if I decide against that I'll be saving like mad, I just feel like now is the right time for a step up in the quality of guitar that I've got.
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I don't have anything to add on the Custom vs. High-end debate, but those Swamp Ash Specials would be beautiful.... if they didn't have that middle pickup ruining the look. :?
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I don't have anything to add on the Custom vs. High-end debate, but those Swamp Ash Specials would be beautiful.... if they didn't have that middle pickup ruining the look. :?
I'm the complete opposite- that's one of the things that sets them apart from the other PRSs. Another thing being the maple boards, which is a key thing for me.
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Don't know what the crack is with the Take It Away scheme. Can you get used guitars on it, or doesn't it matter as long as it's at a shop?
The other side to a custom is that you can't really play it before you buy it. So unless you're 100% sure what you want on it, then maybe it isn't time one of them
I think it's going to depend on your circumstances at the time and what you come across. I've just spent far too much money on a watch (twice what I was intending to spend), because I fell in love with it. There was nothing I could do, resistance was futile :lol: Guitars are just as dangerous :(
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Yeah with Take It Away it can be secondhand, it just has to be from one of the participating retailers (loads of decent shops, including Machinehead and Coda which are local to me).
And what you mention about customs not being playable until they're done is one of my biggest worries about that route.
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Very helpful so far guys keep it coming.
Mark I've probably asked you this before, but if you don't mind how much did your Legra set you back?
I have the Modern Eagle for several reasons:
* I fell in love with them the first time I saw one
* The spec suits me perfectly (twin cutaway, scale length, woods)
* I'm lucky enough to be able to afford one
But most importantly:
* It's the best sounding and feeling humbucker loaded guitar I've ever played
^That bit is I suppose what I'm trying to decipher. And I have reservations about going custom because my reference point would be production-model guitars: I feel like if I asked Bob or Jonathan for "basically a PRS Swampash Special" the end result may not be what I was hoping for, as a PRS SAS is a PRS SAS and a Feline copy will always be just that.
Such a hard decision!
Cheers dave
And, I cant really give you a usefull answer to that, sam! The MDV602 cost me ~1350 a few years ago, before the price hike in woods and hardware, so I dont know what it would cost now. My second Legra, the Aurora, got a reduction at Bobs discretion, so I dont know what that would have cost either (I paid about 1800 though, which isnt worth batting an eyelid at for the spec and design I'm getting).
But, the only thing out of Legra that I do know the price of any more - a CNC line based on the RG shape that hes put a lot of thought and work into getting under the £1000 mark - CNC the general shape, assembling by hand, choice of hardware (and *I think* bridge routing, if any, and pickup config) and woods. If you like the RG shape and 25.5 scale (more or less the only constraints, I think, due to the CNCinc of the body and neck shape) then that might be of interest to you?
Failing that, decide on a preliminary spec and ask for some quotes from Legra and anyone else, and ask some questions in the email, see how they reply. Its what I did first time round (Bob gave a good price, but most importantly, the most complete and sensible answers to my quesitons; that plus reputation is how I chose Legra in the first place, having never played one - perhaps a similar processes would help you decide which custom, if any, you'd go with?).
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And what you mention about customs not being playable until they're done is one of my biggest worries about that route.
Me too. I utterly swear by only buying guitars you've played, and I was shiteeting bricks the few days before my first Legra arived, and it was the single biggest thing against me getting a custom in general: "What if its cr@p?" going through my head, repeatedly.
That I'm nothing but excited about my second one should tell you something though :D
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I wonder if Feline would do a 'budget' CNC assisted version of his Lions.
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I've always been GASing for SASes ... but I never actually played one :O
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My 2 pence:
There is little discernable difference between the Feline's I've played and own and a good example of a high end guitar from PRS, Gibson, Vigier etc.
If a major manufacturer happens to make a guitar that has exactly what you want in terms of spec, then you should buy it.
If you want something that is a slightly different spec and are prepared to wait longer; go to a luthier.
Many luthiers in the UK can build a guitar to the exact spec of the well known brands, to at least the same quality and at a lower price. Due to their smaller capacity, you have to wait longer :(
You get what you ask for. If you don't know 100% what you want then chances are you may be moving the guitar on at some point, as Twinfan pointed out be prepared to lose financially on the re-sale value of a custom build.
My top 3 guitars (potentially) are my Feline Lion, Musicman Axis SSport, then Feline Tiger, in that order.
Can't remember the prices at new, but it would be about £2,300, £1,250 and £1,900 at a guess. There can't be more than 10% difference in quality, but there is in price.
Likewise all of these 3 can absolutely piss on a lot of guitars I've played that weigh in at £3,000 plus.
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Hi,
I think im right in quoting that Johnathan at Feline always says that last little bit of quality always cost quite a bit. I think that is very true for both amps and guitars. I also think it is true for the big manufacturers and the small ones.
I got two Felines. They were in his sale so were not made specially for me. They were however at a similar price to a Fender strat standard. Both of the guitars are much much better than the Strats I looked at. They are great! Being left handed I have not been able to try much left handed high end guitars out. For me custom is the way to go being left handed becauce the chances are I can not try before I buy (in most cases).
If I was a right hander I am not sure if I would buy off the shelf or from somewhere like Feline, legra etc. What I would say is if you are looking at say a gibson les paul I would take a good look at the small guitar makers as I beleive you will get a great guitar at a considerably cheeper price.
Im not sure where you live in the country you are but Feline as got a number of guitars made form when he did the guitar shows. I guess if you went for a pack of strings you would be able to take a look and maybe try one or two out to give you a idea of how the quality stacks up against cost.
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yo sam! :)
I think dave and mark nailed it already with their posts on the first page (I haven't read past the first page yet).
There are pros and cons for going custom- main cons being you're not 100% sure how it'll turn out, plus actually figuring out a spec (and then not changing your mind!) is difficult. Also the wait. But the advantage is that you get exactly what you want, and often for quite a bit less than off-the-shelf models. You definitely don't want to order a custom build without doing a lot of research yourself first, hit the internet to find out what different types of neck profiles etc. the guitars your local shop has in stock have, then hit all your local shops to try everything they have.
I've tried a couple of off-the-shelf models which were, as objectively as possible, as nice as my legra- a tyler superstrat, and a nik huber. But they were quite a bit more expensive (almost twice as much, in the case of the huber, and not much less in the case of the tyler, and it's worth pointing out that my legra would have been a lot cheaper had it been a bolt-on superstrat like the tyler). And weren't exactly set out the way I'd want them etc. Regarding Vigiers, I've really liked the ones I've tried, but there's too much on them that I'd change (main one being the nut width, which is virtually impossible to change), and they're not cheap enough to make that worthwhile. I also don't think they're just as nice as things like tylers, though they are extremely nice.
Personally, I make the decision based on cost and how much I'd change. If there's an off-the-shelf model which is exactly what I want (bar a pickup swap), and it's a bit cheaper than a custom would be, I'd probably go with it because I wouldn't have to wait for several months. I have a couple of patrick eggles and a JJ, all of which I got for £500 or less (each- not altogether :lol: ), and personally I like them as much as the PRSes I've tried, if not more (with a pickup swap, anyway). However, I haven't tried the really high-end PRSes like Dave has (but then they're even more again, and the PRSes I have tried have been up to about £3k).
of course, it's very, very hard to compare like with like because my Legra is a metal/shred-orientated V, while all these other guitars I've tried have been more classic guitars (bar the vigiers).
EDIT: regarding value, UK-made stuff is generally a lot cheaper than US-made stuff. European-made stuff is normally a bit cheaper than US-made stuff, too. And Japanese stuff can be good value, though the mid-range japanese stuff is generally the best bang-for-buck.
Having an early Patrick Eggle Berlin, I would say to have a go on one of them too........ and then you could still afford to go on holiday :lol:
yeah, eggles are great. the older ones, especially, before they became tiggles. I have a tiggle and it's great (I also have an older one), but the QC isn't meant to be so good. That would be a very good call, actually, you can get an old s/h Eggle starting around the £300 for a basic new york style one, and you can get the lower-end (lower-end for eggle!) berlins starting at around £400-£450. But again odds are that means buying off E-bay, which is a bit riskier than walking into a shop.
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yeah, eggles are great. the older ones, especially, before they became tiggles. I have a tiggle and it's great (I also have an older one), but the QC isn't meant to be so good. That would be a very good call, actually, you can get an old s/h Eggle starting around the £300 for a basic new york style one, and you can get the lower-end (lower-end for eggle!) berlins starting at around £400-£450. But again odds are that means buying off E-bay, which is a bit riskier than walking into a shop.
Or wait for the Rev to get board with one, shouldn't take more than a few days :lol:
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we all know that mojo is something which can be apart from quality. maybe a beat up guitar with issues somehow flicks your switch and you fall in love..
i played a few expensively made, high quality instruments, and i couldn't get connected in some cases
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we all know that mojo is something which can be apart from quality. maybe a beat up guitar with issues somehow flicks your switch and you fall in love..
i played a few expensively made, high quality instruments, and i couldn't get connected in some cases
All true.
Also, over time, mojo can grow. Not to mean the guitar changes, which it might, but thats another discussion, but you can go back to an instrument that you've previously not been that connected with and find more mojo in it. This has happened steadily over 10 years with my jackson DX1 and over the last few months with my humble crawler equiped Epi LP.
Also, some guitars you really want to get on with, it ticks all the boxes on paper, but something isnt right.
You cant buy that shite, and you cant predict it.
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we all know that mojo is something which can be apart from quality. maybe a beat up guitar with issues somehow flicks your switch and you fall in love..
i played a few expensively made, high quality instruments, and i couldn't get connected in some cases
agreed
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Or wait for the Rev to get board with one, shouldn't take more than a few days :lol:
i had no idea what you meant for a minute or two, but i know what you mean now. yeah, he does seem to go through a lot of them :lol:
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There are guitars and then there are guitars.
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There are guitars and then there are guitars.
:roll:
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Swamp ash can be great to make a guitar from
(http://www.felineguitars.com/guitar_images/Tiger%20-%20Sunburst%20Swamp%20/sunburst%20Tiger.jpg)
Whilst I will obviously want to say that custom built are best - to be fair there are some awesome factory built guitars out there - and not just the custom shop or top of the range ones
We had a Chinese made Squier strat in last weekend that sounded so great but the fretting was all over the place .
It had the best acoustic ring I have heard in ages - just made you want to play , but the frets were so uneven that you got way too much fret dress.
I wanted to say to the player to have a fret dress or a refret and level the board as it would be such a great sounding guitar, just from how well the wooden parts interacted with each other with strings on .
OK - I would maybe have suggested BKPs and some hardware upgrades too if the player wanted the best
Sadly (and maybe understandably ) the player didn't want to spend the original cost of the guitar to have it's problems sorted, but it was a shame because I could hear how good a guitar it already was .
And even if he had wanted to make it a super guitar - it would still say Squier and the player would be upset to spend money and not have a "prestige" brand name on the guitar - one that would impress his mates.
Life's funny like that sometimes!
But whatever guitar you go for - it can pay HUGE dividends to have it set up really well!
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There are guitars and then there are guitars.
:roll:
:roll: right back at ya.
It's true, all guitars are not made equal... I'll elaborate...
Sometimes you spend a fortune getting it and sometimes you can spend a few hundred to get it... a guitar with a good core tone doesn't give a fig if it was CNC made in a factory in Mexico or handcrafted by magic tone elves. But you've got a safer bet with the elves.
After making a guitar, I think any decent small/personal high end builder/company should throw the guitar in a bin and burn if it doesn't reach their standards. It'd be nice if that was the case with bigger high end companies but it isn't - and, I'm sure it's the hardest thing for a big company to monitor.
The big(ger) producers will still let a p.o.s plank through - I've had first hand experience of both Suhr and PRS selling dead guitars right next to right corkers that they've made for example. Whereas that's very rare with a more personal and intimate build - nothing to do with $$$ and everything to do with having the time for each build.
Having said that, IMO every instrument should be taken on it's own merits regardless of what it says on the headstock.
So yea... there are guitars and then there are guitars
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But whatever guitar you go for - it can pay HUGE dividends to have it set up really well!
i was staying out of this too because obviously i am not very impartial... but just wanted to throw a big +1 on this statement
dave mentions a guitar from me playing as slickly as his modern eagle. That was a warmoth neck he had played before on a different body, a very nice neck but nothing 'special' - i didnt do much more than set-up, some softening of factory sharp edges and touching up of the oil finish.
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But whatever guitar you go for - it can pay HUGE dividends to have it set up really well!
Definitely agreed on this. I was shocked by how much better my Pearl played after I got a proper fret dress/setup. Problem is, that guitar plays so well that all my guitars will need to be set up by the guy who did it now :lol:
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Thta's the point Wez - you took a 'normal' neck and made it the best it can be with fingerboard rolling, fret attention etc. It's now SUPER slick to play, and yes it's as good as my Modern Eagle.
Well, maybe not quite as slick as Brazilian Rosewood ;)
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That I'm nothing but excited about my second one should tell you something though :D
It does indeed!
And Matt77, very interesting. I must get to try a Musicman at some point. Nick who used to post on here couldn't say enough good things about them.
Lots of thought-provoking ideas in here, it's helping a lot guys, thanks.
The point about set-ups is something I've thought about in the past. The Fernandes Ravelle that I sold probably would have been a far greater guitar than I thought it was if I had got it set up properly, as would the Burny LP which I also got rid of. It's just another factor which makes judging the "potential" of a guitar so difficult. I don't know whether if I tried a £1200 Vigier that didn't play quite right it could be perfected with a set-up. That could result in me missing a diamond of a guitar and then spending a bucket load more just because another guitar was set up correctly, if you see what I mean.
And Jonathan that's gorgeous. My current favourite is a very similar finish to that (this is a 513 not a SAS, but still Swamp Ash body):
(http://www.guitarvillage.co.uk/admin/pages/upload/PRS/513swampash.jpg)
I may be in touch about a quote!
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Interesting 3 piece top on that 513 Sambo
They have gotten a reasonable grain match for a production guitar
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Which is a huge part of what Custom is about: getting exactly the guitar you want. Which forces me to make a deliniation in custom shops, into Bespoke and Custom:
Bespoke - Legra, Wez, Rek, Feline (?) etc: you get whatever you want.
Custom - You get a guitar built specifically for you, to order (so its custom) and its customisable, but you have to buy into a particular line of guitars that that maker thinks is The Ultimate Guitar (or is a slightly different and marketable idea) - Blackmachine, Organic, Driskill, etc. You dont get whatever you want. You get a custom built and possibly customised version of their line of guitar.
Superb assessment MDV, I'd be interested owning a black machine but the only problem is I need a luthier who is willing to deal with my requests of installing fuzz factories, laser beams, and weapons of mass destruction, which is why I go with Legra :)
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And Matt77, very interesting. I must get to try a Musicman at some point. Nick who used to post on here couldn't say enough good things about them.
Matt had his musicman at the Manc meetup, I thought it was really sweet, felt like a thin neck, but then I looked down at my hand it's medium neck, and my brain couldn't understand it, in a good way
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And Matt77, very interesting. I must get to try a Musicman at some point. Nick who used to post on here couldn't say enough good things about them.
Matt had his musicman at the Manc meetup, I thought it was really sweet, felt like a thin neck, but then I looked down at my hand it's medium neck, and my brain couldn't understand it
Asymmetrical neck profile I believe...?
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how about a warmoth (or something similar) build? just throwing it out there
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Funny you should suggest that, as that popped into my head from nowhere last night.
Just how good is their quality? Would the assembly make a meaningful difference? I.e. would it be worth having it put together by a luthier?
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Not masiively experienced in Warmoth stuff, so I'm sure someone else will pipe up, but I hear very good things.
I think the fit and finish is a very good standard making it fairly easy to put together. I'd still pack it off for a propper set up and finish though.
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Just how good is their quality? Would the assembly make a meaningful difference? I.e. would it be worth having it put together by a luthier?
My experience is that they've a very consistent production... Yes, the assembly will make some difference, as it'll need a small fret leveling, specially if you use low action (sometimes it's not necessary even for those with low action, but they don't make any fret leveling)...
Their options are wide, but it's hard to get something that is not listeded as a option, because they're not luthiers, they're a guitar factory that produces in line style... if your plan is swamp ash body with maple neck/fingerboard will be absurdly easy... If you want the same things as Captain Desslock then you'd better just go to luthier...
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Just to confuse you even further, my WezV built custom La Cabronita (costing under £1000) plays as well as my £4500 Modern Eagle - both are EXTREMELY slick. Never underestimate the value of a good setup, fret dress and neck edge rolling when it comes to playability...
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WezV is righteous
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I have nothing to add except that it is good to see you back Sam. I played a couple of Jonathan's guitars a few weeks back and they were superb.
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Funny you should suggest that, as that popped into my head from nowhere last night.
Just how good is their quality? Would the assembly make a meaningful difference?
I.e. would it be worth having it put together by a luthier?
It can help ....
Antag has some experience here too
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I think warmoth are usually pretty good with no extra work. if thats what you are after then fair enough.
considering these necks travel all around the world and are usually easily playable, thats pretty impressive.
but they can be so much more - doesnt take much work (well, a lot of attention to detail) but they are so much better when taken past the 'factory fret job'. but these are the final details you should find on most custom and high end production guitars - but rarely find on your standard production stuff
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And Matt77, very interesting. I must get to try a Musicman at some point. Nick who used to post on here couldn't say enough good things about them.
Matt had his musicman at the Manc meetup, I thought it was really sweet, felt like a thin neck, but then I looked down at my hand it's medium neck, and my brain couldn't understand it
Asymmetrical neck profile I believe...?
no idea, only musicman I know for sure that has an asymmetric neck is the john petrucci sig
really wanna try one
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i thought most of them had asymmetric necks... should be pretty noticeable when you try one and look at it. it'll be thicker on the bass side.
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I've just spent far too much money on a watch (twice what I was intending to spend), because I fell in love with it. There was nothing I could do, resistance was futile :lol:
And it's already broken :(
Anyway, back on topic :D
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And Matt77, very interesting. I must get to try a Musicman at some point. Nick who used to post on here couldn't say enough good things about them.
Matt had his musicman at the Manc meetup, I thought it was really sweet, felt like a thin neck, but then I looked down at my hand it's medium neck, and my brain couldn't understand it
Asymmetrical neck profile I believe...?
no idea, only musicman I know for sure that has an asymmetric neck is the john petrucci sig
really wanna try one
No need, you've tried one on mine :)
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Funny you should suggest that, as that popped into my head from nowhere last night.
Just how good is their quality? Would the assembly make a meaningful difference?
I.e. would it be worth having it put together by a luthier?
It can help ....
Antag has some experience here too
Yes, I do (been away for a few days, so late on this thread). To save an essay, here are a few points:
Warmoth's bodies & necks are absolutely superb quality.
As long as you are careful, it's fairly straightforward to assemble a perfectly playable guitar from them. I'd never done anything more technical than adjust action height before I assembled my first Warmoth (which was, by coincidence, my first BKP guitar :))
However, the guitar will play far, far better for a professional fret-dress & setup than without. In fact I'd go as far as to say that parts as good as Warmoth deserve to have the job done properly.
IMHO it's a mistake to expect to be able to complete a Warmoth for less money than you could get a decent MIJ guitar off the shelf. Generally speaking, you're unlikely to get much change out of £800 for everything except pickups (which will be BKP of course ;)). Add £150-£300 for BKPs & £60-£100 for a case. If you're spending north of a grand, £80-£150 for a pro setup/fret dress starts to seem like a worthwhile investment (& still gives you a very nice guitar for less than you're likely to spend getting one custom built - I guess it all depends on whether a strat/tele derived guitar meets your tastes/requirements over something custom build from scratch).
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I've been soooo tempted by Warmoth... A nice swamp ash body, maple neck... hmmm!
Regarding custom vs production. It's a tough one. I have a couple of customs, Blackmachine, and a lot of this is supporting the builder. Doug's ace, and I'm in to what he does as a purely personal thing.
However, if we jumped to list price, the most expensive guitar I own is a limited run PRS, rather then a custom. This guitar is something of a guilty pleasure. I don't use it much but it's lovely to play (sounds great too, BKPed obviously).
Taking it back to production instruments, I've been through a few very decent Jacksons, Carvins, Schecters, Ibanez, etc. Is there a difference between them and the higher end or productions? Yes... Is it worth the extra? Ummmm, completely subjective. I'm not a pro so my instruments are not tools in the strictest sense. Is a custom worth 4x the purely financial value of a good production instrument?
This is subjective and debatable, IMO. I enjoy having that option, but, for instance, on a couple of occasions I've tossed up between buying a (cheap) car and a guitar. Guitars won. Personal choice, and the choice of someone who is in just about the position to make it. If I was a pro, I would not necessarily be in the position to make the same decision.
Never pretended to know what I was on about..!! ;)