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Author Topic: Custom vs. High-end production guitars  (Read 14804 times)

sambo

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Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« on: September 22, 2009, 01:55:02 PM »
Hello chaps, long time no see :)

Been lurking a bit on here recently and a couple of guitar-related questions are on my mind.

For those of you who've played Feline's, Legra's, Blackmachine's e.t.c. and some of the high end production guitars like Vigier, Suhr, Anderson, Tyler (PRS dare I say it), is there a significant, and more importantly worthwhile, difference in quality with the customs?

A more general question related to that- is there a point at which guitars can get no better in the way they play and sound? (Particularly play). I.e. is there a £1500 guitar which plays as well as a £2000 guitar? Where is the cut-off point in terms of quality?

This may all seem a bit wishy washy and needless, but I'm trying to decide on what route to go down for my next guitar and it's proving really difficult to decide.

Any info much appreciated as always.

tomjackson

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 02:11:12 PM »

I think  custom guitars would be better value becuase you are not paying for the name so for example I would imagine a Bravewood Tele would be comparable with a CS Fender Relic.

So custom advantages, built to your spec, individual, dream guitar
Top brand, It's got the name, the vibe of the original and it has a good resale value.

You can only take quality so far once the thing is being hand built by experts.

Another thing about custom builds is that you could have a 3 wolve and moon design airbrushed onto the body, try and get that from Fender :)

Twinfan

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 02:23:14 PM »
Eh up Sam  :)

It all depends on your definition of "quality".  If you're talking build quality and overall finish, then I wouldn't say my PRS Modern Eagle is noticeably better than my PRS McCartys.  It's not any better than the Feline Lions or Suhrs I've played either.  Hell, my old Squier CV Tele at £350 was pretty darn close to perfect, with the exception of cheaper electronics.

You get to a certain level, i.e. excellent, and you can't get any higher regardless of whether they're a custom or production build and that cut off depends on manufacturer and price.  Using Fender as an example, it's Custom Shop entry level in my opinion as the build quality and tone doesn't improve much any higher than that.

Where I find the higher end guitars win out in general is in their feel.  Totally subjective and it varies from guitar to guitar and player to player.  For example - myself and Ian Price love my Modern Eagle, but MartinW is indifferent to it.

I have a mixed view on custom builds, as I've said on here before.  The resale on them is terrible, and they might not turn out how you'd hope.  However, you can get the specs exactly to suit you.

If you have very exacting requirements, that you can't get from an off-the-shelf guitar, then custom is clearly the way to go.  If you're thinking of going custom for some perceived extra 'quality' of some sort, then I'm not sure that's the right decision.

Just to confuse you even further, my WezV built custom La Cabronita (costing under £1000) plays as well as my £4500 Modern Eagle - both are EXTREMELY slick.  Never underestimate the value of a good setup, fret dress and neck edge rolling when it comes to playability...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 02:30:51 PM by Twinfan »

gwEm

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 02:30:16 PM »
I think  custom guitars would be better value becuase you are not paying for the name so for example I would imagine a Bravewood Tele would be comparable with a CS Fender Relic.

bravewood far better!
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Ian Price

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 02:30:42 PM »
myself and Ian Price love my Modern Eagle

and your CS Tele and my CS Esquire!
I think I hate being indecisive.

Twinfan

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 02:31:22 PM »
Martin likes my Tele too, that one's just universally loved  :lol:

Twinfan

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2009, 02:32:38 PM »
bravewood far better!

Better can be subjective though and will vary by guitar.  You can't just make sweeping statements like that  :)

sambo

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2009, 02:39:45 PM »

Just to confuse you even further, my WezV built custom La Cabronita (costing under £1000) plays as well as my £4500 Modern Eagle - both are EXTREMELY slick.  Never underestimate the value of a good setup, fret dress and neck edge rolling when it comes to playability...

So the million dollar question then, is why have you got a £4500 modern eagle?

gwEm

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2009, 02:40:37 PM »
bravewood far better!

Better can be subjective though and will vary by guitar.  You can't just make sweeping statements like that  :)

I just did :lol:


(but of course you are right - I just prefer the Bravewoods I've tried to the Fender CS Relics I've tried)
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MDV

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2009, 02:48:09 PM »
Dave makes good points, but theres a lot more than just quality to think about.

In terms of quality my Legra and my Dean custom (since sold) were very similar. Legra took it, but the dean was very well made (albeit from lesser woods, but still very good - the only objective flaw with the guitar was the nut was a little too high: easily fixed).

But I sold the dean because I didnt get on with some things about the design. Subjective matters that dont reflect on dean. The same has been true with various top end guitars I've played; considering only the quality if assembly and finish - jackson soloists (great, but I dont like painted necks), top end RGs (great but I cant be arsed with another floyd-a-like), SOME top end gibsons (dont like the scale or shape enough to shell out that sort of money, do like it enough to have an Epi LP kicking around), top end ESPs (mix and match all of the above). I've also seen some shockingly ropey guitars from Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Caparison (only one, admitedly) and others (both good and bad), so I think max quality is possible with an off the shelf guitar, but far from certain at any price. Thats not the case with customs (in theory at least)

Which is a huge part of what Custom is about: getting exactly the guitar you want. Which forces me to make a deliniation in custom shops, into Bespoke and Custom:

Bespoke - Legra, Wez, Rek, Feline (?) etc: you get whatever you want.

Custom - You get a guitar built specifically for you, to order (so its custom) and its customisable, but you have to buy into a particular line of guitars that that maker thinks is The Ultimate Guitar (or is a slightly different and marketable idea) - Blackmachine, Organic, Driskill, etc. You dont get whatever you want. You get a custom built and possibly customised version of their line of guitar.

In terms of cost, I think you get much better from Custom and Bespoke guitars, for various reasons, one of which is the lack of name (but then you have Name Customs and Bespoke guitars like Conklin and Alembic, that charge SERIOUS money)

There is a cutoff to guitar quality - how well put together one can be, and many off the shelf gutiars hit it at around £500, or even less. Materials are a different matter, because there are pseudo objective measures (like grade, sg, grain density, oil and moisture content) and subjective (what they sound like when a certain guitar is made from them) and asthetic value. Then you have distinctive peices of exotic woods that are really quite hard to price, or evaluate the value of to any given person - they can be very pretty, very unique, but the complex grain patterns wrecks the structural intetgrity of the woods and makes them tonally useless to boot, so 'quality' is subjective there again.

Long story short, theres a point where a guitar just cant be perceptibly better assembled and superior wood (by any objective measure) cant be found and both top end production, and custom and bespoke guitars hit that point, but not with equal consistency.  I think that if you can find what you want in an off the shelf guitar then its entirely possible that that guitar can also max out any possible objective measure of guitar quality, but theres always a chance (whatever chance it may be) that even top end off the shelf guitars from the same factory will be flawed or outright cr@p. Customs and Bespokes are very consistently high quality and you know the materials in them are what they're supposed to be (not like "African mahogany", for example), you know its all going to be made and finished to near as well as a human hand and eye can manage (all things being equal, from reputable and skilled builders like the ones mentioned above), but there the drive isnt high quality, thats just a given, or should be, its getting the exact guitar you want. Apples and oranges.

Twinfan

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2009, 02:56:46 PM »
Great post Mark.  Some top info there.

So the million dollar question then, is why have you got a £4500 modern eagle?

I have the Modern Eagle for several reasons:

* I fell in love with them the first time I saw one
* The spec suits me perfectly (twin cutaway, scale length, woods)
* I'm lucky enough to be able to afford one

But most importantly:

* It's the best sounding and feeling humbucker loaded guitar I've ever played

sambo

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2009, 03:08:18 PM »
Very helpful so far guys keep it coming.

Mark I've probably asked you this before, but if you don't mind how much did your Legra set you back?


I have the Modern Eagle for several reasons:

* I fell in love with them the first time I saw one
* The spec suits me perfectly (twin cutaway, scale length, woods)
* I'm lucky enough to be able to afford one

But most importantly:

* It's the best sounding and feeling humbucker loaded guitar I've ever played

^That bit is I suppose what I'm trying to decipher. And I have reservations about going custom because my reference point would be production-model guitars: I feel like if I asked Bob or Jonathan for "basically a PRS Swampash Special" the end result may not be what I was hoping for, as a PRS SAS is a PRS SAS and a Feline copy will always be just that.

Such a hard decision!

Twinfan

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2009, 03:19:03 PM »
Why are you considering a custom build?  Different specs?  Or just because you think it'll be 'better'?

If it's the latter, you'd be better off trying out as many PRS SASs that you can get your hands on and buying the one that speaks to you.

If you want a PRS SAS, buy a PRS SAS.

sambo

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2009, 03:23:08 PM »
Why are you considering a custom build?  Different specs?  Or just because you think it'll be 'better'?

If it's the latter, you'd be better off trying out as many PRS SASs that you can get your hands on and buying the one that speaks to you.

If you want a PRS SAS, buy a PRS SAS.

I don't really know why I'm considering a custom. Perhaps just because it's there and I would hate to spend such a large sum of money on something without evaluating all the options.

I may even be able to get an SAS (or something very similar) for LESS money if I went with Bob or Wez.

ToneMonkey

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Re: Custom vs. High-end production guitars
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2009, 03:36:11 PM »


I don't really know why I'm considering a custom. Perhaps just because it's there and I would hate to spend such a large sum of money on something without evaluating all the options.


If I was in your boat, I'd go on holiday.  :lol: Failing that though, I'd go with Twinfan and try as many SAS's as possible.  If you don't want one of them then go for a custom.

I kind of see production guitars as a commodity which can be bought and sold, but if I was after a guitar to do what I wanted and that I was going to stick with for the rest of my days, then I'd go custom.  Well actually, I'd make it myself, but that's just me.
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