Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Adi on December 09, 2009, 09:19:59 AM
-
Hi guys, Im a passionate new arrival here..In pursuit of my dream Strat.
I will, nervously - If I -have- to, even though it scares me,-wreck my bank account and buy the modern Fender 'custom shop' stratocaster 'deluxe' like one I played in astonishment down at Mansons a few days ago..-It was gorgeous, powerful, with a sound that was brighter,clearer and crammed full of detail unlike any other Strat in the shop, or any other I've played before..But wow... £2000...I am given to the mysteries of the 'sourced woods' and 'top craftsmanship' of how it is something black art when asking -Why- did it sound so good?
Is it really about that black art? Or is it simply about having a nice guitar packed with astonishing pick ups? -Say a nice mexican...With some bare knuckles goin' on..? The same, or possibly even better quality?..Around half the price?
What do say the guys?
Much thanks,
Adi.
-
You get what you pay for. It's all in the combination of woods, hardware, pickups, nut etc. You can change things (e.g. pickups in a Mexican Strat) but you can't change the wood.
I've not found anything that can touch the Fender Custom Shop stuff yet. I played a hand built Tele recently, made by a top luthier, at a cost of around £2000. Should be the cream of the crop, right?
I much, much preferred my Custom Shop Tele made in the factory in Corona.
My advice? Buy the Fender Custom Shop Strat, play the snot out of it, and love it for the rest of your life.
-
You've come to teh [sic] right place.
Best of all, it is not difficult to build a good Strat that will help you hook up with better looking women (check out the "Crushes" thread in The Dressing Room). Even I can do it, so anyone can.
Firstest, get it through your head: Fender and Gibson are factories. So are their custom shops. Not only that, Gibson and Fender were always factories, even back in the good old days. So forget about "black arts" or old-world trained craftsmen carefully tap-tuning Strat bodies and testing different pickup combinations on each individual guitar. They don't do that at Fender, at least not for the standard mass-produced Custom Shop offering.
That is what you are going to do.
If there is a magic, it is in finding the right combination of parts that work with that guitar. Sometimes it takes some experimentation. Sometimes you think you will get one sound, and you get another.
You can start with a good-sounding Mexican Strat and install some BKPs and better electronics and that will get you 90% of the way to a perfect Strat, unless you are a vintage freak like me. Then you can get some wood and parts and start building. www.musikraft.com is a good source for fairly correct bodies and necks. Plus you can do something more interesting than improve on the standard Fender offerings.
The terminal stages come when you start chasing down vintage parts, staring at photos, and sniping Ebay auctions for a more accurate product.
I've already built several variations on my visions of perfect Stratocasters, and last times I took any of mine to music shops selling CS Strats, the sale staff agreed that my guitars killed the official Fender product. (I actually wasn't so certain, but everyone else was, and I was not fishing for compliments.)
-
It's Custom Shop all the way for me. The 2 CS's I have owned have both been very very good indeed. I do stick to brands that I like and there is something about a CS Fender that feels special. I have owned Mexican and US reissue versions and there is, IMO, a fairly big difference in quality and feel.
-
Is it really about that black art? Or is it simply about having a nice guitar packed with astonishing pick ups? -Say a nice mexican...With some bare knuckles goin' on..? The same, or possibly even better quality?..Around half the price?
It's a matter of "weakest link". I mean, everything - or almost everything - in a guitar concur to the resulting tone: woods selection - quality, timber and how they "fit" together -, construction method, craftmanship quality / expertise and attention to each and every detail, hardware quality and material, and of course pups, pots and caps. And some invisible factors too like luck, phase of the moon, mojo and whatnots :mrgreen:
wrt/ pups, well, even the best pickup in the world will not make a particle-board piece-of-cr@p sound good. Now given a guitar that is decently built and sounds fine unplugged, pups will indeed have a very strong influence on the resulting tone.
So, I wouldn't bet on a MiM ending up being "better quality" than a CS - obviously, there's a huge difference in woods, hardware and craftmanship qualities - but if you do find a (new or second hand) strat that is decently built and finished (you might want to consider CiJ FWIW), plays well, and sounds fine unplugged, then yes it could be worth upgrading the pups, caps and eventually pots. And eventually some hardware pieces like nut and bridge, that also impact tone.
My 2 cents...
-
If the £2000 strat was better then any other strat you've played, then buy that.
-
Fender Custom Shop make lovely guitars but IMO the best value by far would be a partscaster. Depends really if you want the relicing or not, which fender does very well.
My main guitar is a Allparts / Callaham / BKP tele that cost around £700. It has kind of evolved since I've had it, which is part of the beauty of doing it that way, If you want to swap parts it's easy to do and doesn't affect the guitars originality becuase it was never original in he first place.
My dream Tele was a Nocaster but after picking one up the other day I think I've finally got to a stage where I prefer mine anyway (may be becuase I'm more used to it that anything else). But certainly the nocaster was no more resonant and weights were probably around the same...
So it depends on budget and the vibe you want really but the next Strat I get will probably be USA Custom Guitars body and neck and possibly Callaham hardware....
If money was absolutely no object, as in I could spend an extra grand on a similar guitar, I'd go for the CS. For the Vibe, the name and the nice case :D
-
If the £2000 strat was better then any other strat you've played, then buy that.
Exactly.
-
If the £2000 strat was better then any other strat you've played, then buy that.
Exactly.
huge wedge though!
-
If the £2000 strat was better then any other strat you've played, then buy that.
Exactly.
huge wedge though!
If you think of it as one lump sum, then yes, it is a lot of cash. However, if you think of it as a lifetime's investment in the right guitar for you then it's $%&# all.
-
If the £2000 strat was better then any other strat you've played, then buy that.
Exactly.
huge wedge though!
If you think of it as one lump sum, then yes, it is a lot of cash. However, if you think of it as a lifetime's investment in the right guitar for you then it's $%&# all.
i think you can get better for far less though, by the right upgrades, full/part custom build, partscaster etc
-
That's the two trains of thought I've come across:
1) Buy the Fender Custom Shop as the best alternative to a good vintage Fender, they're worth it
2) Custom Shop guitars are too expensive, I can get something as good for much less money
Usually people fall into one or other of those camps. Personal preference, and the value of the Fender Custom Shop brand, are what makes people sit either side.
-
There's also the matter of how much you can afford, two grand is a lot of money.
Also how much return you get on your additional expenditure. You'll get a good guitar for £1,000, you'll get a better one for £2,000, but it won't be twice as good.
Personally, I guess I could afford two grand (only because I have no either vices), but since I don't play in a band and I'm a piss-poor player, I could never regard the expenditure as "justified". And frankly, even the best guitar in the world is still going to sound rubbish in my hands. Of course, this doesn't stop me spending lots more than two grand every year on lots of cheaper guitars! :wink:
There's no right or wrong in this argument. It's all up to you really!
-
I have a really great Highway 1 Strat. A lucky find, and the best of three I've owned. 14 ounces lighter than the last mex Strat I owned, zingy and resonant, yet with good sustain even with the trem floating.
A top end set of pickups (not BKP in this case :oops:) and some expert fret work, and it owes me just over £700. I'll get a hard case eventually, so it'll be £800 ish.
That's one way.
-
Hi guys, Im a passionate new arrival here..In pursuit of my dream Strat.
I will, nervously - If I -have- to, even though it scares me,-wreck my bank account and buy the modern Fender 'custom shop' stratocaster 'deluxe' like one I played in astonishment down at Mansons a few days ago..-
What do say the guys?
Much thanks,
Adi.
1-Please do tell which model this strat of all strats is
2-If you decide to buy it I'm pretty sure you can't find it cheaper than MANSONS of all places
-
If you decide to buy it I'm pretty sure you can't find it cheaper than MANSONS of all places
I thought you'd be all in favour of Mansons, seeing as they build guitars for your mate Mr Bellamy. :P
Even if Adi did find the same model cheaper somewhere else, there's no guarantee it would have the mojo of the particular one he liked....
-
If you decide to buy it I'm pretty sure you can't find it cheaper than MANSONS of all places
I thought you'd be all in favour of Mansons, seeing as they build guitars for your mate Mr Bellamy. :P
Even if Adi did find the same model cheaper somewhere else, there's no guarantee it would have the mojo of the particular one he liked....
oh dear....it is quite humorous that the board knows which band to knock me on :P
Speaking of Mojo..............well the whole inherent qualities thing I guess is a whole different discussion right? How far can the mojo differ between two of the same custom shop instruments I wonder?
-
Speaking of Mojo..............well the whole inherent qualities thing I guess is a whole different discussion right? How far can the mojo differ between two of the same custom shop instruments I wonder?
A bit. I played two identical model Teles to mine before I bought it, and preferred mine by quite a way. Most of the instruments from the CS are very good, but that one seemed a bit dull. I think that's rare though.
-
oh dear....it is quite humorous that the board knows which band to knock me on :P
Good lord man... you couldn't be a bigger fanboy! :P :lol: :lol:
Your guitar designs hide your influences so well.... :? :lol: :lol:
-
oh dear....it is quite humorous that the board knows which band to knock me on :P
Good lord man... you couldn't be a bigger fanboy! :P :lol: :lol:
Your guitar designs hide your influences so well.... :? :lol: :lol:
just because my first visit to the UK will be next year cause I bought tickets to see them at Lancashire cricket grounds and wembley stadium does not mean I'm a fanboy, thats like saying cause Afghan Dave likes underage girls he's a pervert, oh wait............ :lol:
-
Oh, did I touch a nerve...
Maybe you should wash your mouth out with this totally unique cleaning aid.. :lol: :lol:
(http://www.hecklerspray.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/muse-live-earth.jpeg)
-
this is too funny, alright alright fine
i'm a fanboy you win dave :P
here is your prize-
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/NBCSports/Components/Slideshows-NBC_sports/NFL/NFL%20Cheerleaders/091125_Broncos.ss_full.jpg)
-
PDT_003 PDT_002
Back on topic...
I say if you can afford it get the Custom Shop Strat - If it was right for you, then it might be something you chase for years but never find again...
You pay a premium for living in the moment and without regrets.
-
is it one of the ones listed here?
http://mansons.co.uk/shopping/categories/fender-custom-shop-electric-guitars/ (http://mansons.co.uk/shopping/categories/fender-custom-shop-electric-guitars/)
-
I have a really great Highway 1 Strat. A lucky find, and the best of three I've owned. 14 ounces lighter than the last mex Strat I owned, zingy and resonant, yet with good sustain even with the trem floating.
A top end set of pickups (not BKP in this case :oops:) and some expert fret work, and it owes me just over £700. I'll get a hard case eventually, so it'll be £800 ish.
That's one way.
This was my route too, although my Highway One has a set of Apaches in it which I've found ideal. The thing I found key was to try as many of the same model of guitar as possible. There was a huge difference in guitars which were supposed to be identical and I kept trying Highway Ones until I found the one that spoke to me, and that's the one I bought.
I've played excellent CS Strats and a few that I thought were very uninspiring - all were similarly expensive. I think the bottom line is to find the guitar that speaks to you and buy that, if you can afford it. If not, keep looking. It is out there, you just need to track it down.
-
The only thing you 'should' be able to fault on a 2K guitar is the price.Like an earlier post said 1K should buy a top notch guitar.Expensive woods change the tone but not always improve it. I'd never spend money on say a birdseye maple neck because it's an aesthetic thing.Nor would i spend on 'relicing' or old fashioned machine heads when grovers or suchlike are available.I remember albert lee saying that he thought the lighter tele's(cheaper wood) often sounded better.
2nd hand strat plus guitars where very well made (90's) . It's easy to buy one ,have it refretted and set up, and install new boutique pups of your choice all for less than a grand. I think soundwise you'd have something pretty much as good as it gets. For 2K you could do it twice!
Whatever you do ,after a few thousand hours of playing it the price isn't much.... a few pence per hr
-
There's the other end of this, too: What is the perfect Stratocaster? Probably moreso than any other model, the Strat has existed in a multitude of guises down the years, and all of them equally considered Strats. It's not like a Les Paul, an SG or (arguably) a Tele which have an accepted "best" or "standard" build.
I think one needs to work out which combination of the dials on the fruit machine of Strat constructions and components works best to the hands and ears before attempting to find the definitive example of that.
-
There's the other end of this, too: What is the perfect Stratocaster? Probably moreso than any other model, the Strat has existed in a multitude of guises down the years, and all of them equally considered Strats. It's not like a Les Paul, an SG or (arguably) a Tele which have an accepted "best" or "standard" build.
I think one needs to work out which combination of the dials on the fruit machine of Strat constructions and components works best to the hands and ears before attempting to find the definitive example of that.
I agree. Further, for what my experience is worth, every guitar I have built has required some experimenting to find its optimum tones, and every guitar I have built has ended up surprising me in some way, giving me sounds I didn't quite expect to hear.
Sometimes this surprises come about as a result of my experiments, sometimes not.
-
i must admit to doing complete neck reworks and set-ups on relatively cheap strats that have ended up sounding pretty awesome... a pickup change and electronics change would make them king... a trem change would make them perfect
the fact is that you can get a well made maple strat necked strat for very little money and as long as its chosen well set-up is more important, and it can be made to play well.
-
i must admit to doing complete neck reworks and set-ups on relatively cheap strats that have ended up sounding pretty awesome... a pickup change and electronics change would make them king... a trem change would make them perfect
i have a wezv reworked relatively cheap strat neck, and played with trem pimping and fully agree with this post
you can get a fully steel trem (ok, maybe not fancy cold rolled steel) by just changing the saddles and block on most trems and its quite easy and not that expensive - just some research to make sure everything fits
-
I would certainly play a fair few more Strats before buying one - it will give you a better idea of what you can get for your money. When I was in the market for a Tele I tried out lots of them and loved the butterscotch USA-made '52 RI, but then I played a MIM '72 Tele Custom and was sold - it ticked all the boxes.
I've also owned a Les Paul that cost twice as much as my trusty '90 standard and the expensive LP (a classic plus) just didn't have 'it' in the end. I should've never bought it - was a bad decision with my VISA used in haste. Barely played that guitar (used it as a backup) and sold it a couple of years later for a £400.00 loss.
-
Dont jump right in, I think. Play more, as HTH says, get a feel for the variation in construction, woods and hardware.
If you can recognise a well made and acoustically well performing guitar easily (and by 'well' I mean 'sounds how you like it') then that can be upgraded and tailored to your tastes and experimented with till its nailed.
You can, as has been mentioned, find woods that perform very well acoustically in cheaper guitars. Its not even hard. You can also find poor woods and construction in expensive guitars, no matter what it says on the headstock. The variability is high at any price range (just a question of how high).
A lot of it is preconceptions and psychoacoustics. If you expect the 2000 quid custom guitar to be better it probably will be, subjectively. But could you tell the difference in a blind test?
For some perspective one of my main guitars is an Ibanez RG560 that someone changed the pickups in to I dont know what and dont care before I bought it. When I got that it went straight into the ranks of my top guitars, alongside three custom shops and one high end jackson. I then sold one of the custom shops, because it wasnt getting played since I got the ibanez. It cost me 100 quid. 10 times less than the RRP of the next cheapest guitar in my main gutiars (and 1/5th what I paid for it - 1/7th with the pickup change).
But I've also played RGs from the same era (late 80s - its an 89) that are unimpressive.
You can find some great guitars that dont cost the earth. You just have to look around and play as many as possible, and try to ignore what they're called, just listen pay attention to the sound and feel. If that leads you to multi thousand pound instruments, so be it, but it doesnt have to by any means.
Correction - two custom shops, one legra one dean. I got my second legra later, after I sold the dean.
-
i must admit to doing complete neck reworks and set-ups on relatively cheap strats that have ended up sounding pretty awesome... a pickup change and electronics change would make them king... a trem change would make them perfect
the fact is that you can get a well made maple strat necked strat for very little money and as long as its chosen well set-up is more important, and it can be made to play well.
True. Setup is critical. My Esquire (see the "Esquire Love" thread) sounded and played liked like hot buttered cr@p before I got the intonation and the string heights set.
Afterwards, it played and sounded like a totally different guitar.
Also, learn to dress and polish frets and make nuts. A lot of guitars, including some plutocratic models, will benefit from this. In fact, a lot of the reputation of late 1970's Strats stems from the rushed and sloppy fret jobs and nuts that Fender was pushing out the door in those days.
-
Is it really about that black art? Or is it simply about having a nice guitar packed with astonishing pick ups? -Say a nice mexican...With some bare knuckles goin' on..? The same, or possibly even better quality?..Around half the price?
I can answer this as I have a £400 or so Mexi Fender Classic 50's Strat that has had a few BKPs in it and a friend of mine has a Custom Classic Strat. The answer is... No. The Mexi punches way above it's price tag (standard bridge pup aside), but it is destroyed in pretty much every department by the Custom Shop. The custom shop guitar is flawless, it rings like a bell unplugged and plugged in it's amazing. It's one of the few guitars I've played that was perfect out of the box. BUT, is it worth £1500 more than a BKP loaded Mexi... To me, no. But to someone who wants the best and is prepared to pay for it, most definitely.
Same goes for LPs. Same matey (who has a astonishing collection of kit) has a VOS LP and I have an Edwards LP based on the same. Again £400 vs about £2000. Out of the box the Edwards is REALLY well made and finished. Certainly not far off a Gibson Standard. The pups let it down though (Seymour JB/59) and they sounded mushy as hell next to the ones in VOS. I swapped them out for mules and sonically the gap was closed dramatically. However, again it's about comparing something flawless to something that's made to a price. The VOS still has the edge in all areas. Particularly the setup which is the best on any LP I've come across, even Gibson Standards. This seems to be a custom shop thing as his VOS SG is the same.
The same logic prevails here. If you want the best and are prepared to pay the premium for it, then the VOS is the only choice out of the two. If you're a pikey like me, the Edwards with Mules does a passable impression of the VOS for a quarter of the price.
-
If you're okay with a (splittable) humbucker in the bridge, try a Suhr Pro Series:
http://suhrguitars.com/proSeries.aspx
John Suhr used to work in the Fender Custom Shop and he builds a hell of a strat.
-
I'd go for the custom strat that way I could make my dream start by:
- Shortening the scale length (to around 24.75 inch)
- Constructing it from mahogany with a maple top
- Have twin HB's
- Hard Tail
- Block Inlays
- Get it made in a slightly different shape, maybe with a single cutaway and an open book headstock
- Have a custom "Gibson" logo on the headstock
:P :P :P :P
-
I'd go for the custom strat that way I could make my dream start by:
- Shortening the scale length (to around 24.75 inch)
- Constructing it from mahogany with a maple top
- Have twin HB's
- Hard Tail
- Block Inlays
- Get it made in a slightly different shape, maybe with a single cutaway and an open book headstock
- Have a custom "Gibson" logo on the headstock
:P :P :P :P
Just an idea - shoot me down if this doesn't work for you - but maybe a thicker body with a carved top?
And call me crazy, but it's just an idea - have the neck glued-in instead of bolted?
-
I'd go for the custom strat that way I could make my dream start by:
- Shortening the scale length (to around 24.75 inch)
- Constructing it from mahogany with a maple top
- Have twin HB's
- Hard Tail
- Block Inlays
- Get it made in a slightly different shape, maybe with a single cutaway and an open book headstock
- Have a custom "Gibson" logo on the headstock
:P :P :P :P
Just an idea - shoot me down if this doesn't work for you - but maybe a thicker body with a carved top?
And call me crazy, but it's just an idea - have the neck glued-in instead of bolted?
Yeah, I've also always felt the Strat control layout is a little limited; you could consider specifying a volume and tone control per pickup. It's a bit outlandish but I reckon it could work.
-
By Jove, I think we've cracked it.
-
Philistines.
-
I would also make my "special" Strat with 3-to-a-side tuners, and maybe add in a B5 Bigsby if you want a trem.
Archtop-style pickguard and carved top mandatory. Also back-loaded electronics.
And get it endorsed by Jimi Hendrix.
-
Philistines.
Just mucking about. I'd prefer a Strat to an LP really. Actually, I'd prefer a Tele or SG to either.
-
speaking as a confirmed stratoholic, I'd always go for a partscaster build now. I've got 4 US strats and two partscasters built up from Fender/Mighty Mite spares and the partscasters are by far the best of the bunch, like custom built instruments at a third of the cost. I like to scour ebay for necks and bodies then pay the local guitar tech to knock them together and do a setup. Fender custom shop are building Toyotas at Ferrari prices, I really wouldn't bother.
-
Fender custom shop are building Toyotas at Ferrari prices
Ouch :|
-
Fender custom shop are building Toyotas at Ferrari prices
Ouch :|
disclaimer: may contain traces of opinion
-
Fender custom shop are building Toyotas at Ferrari prices
Ouch :|
disclaimer: may contain traces of opinion
:mrgreen: