Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Twinfan on March 15, 2010, 12:51:29 PM
-
Although it shouldn't do, this is really bugging me! :lol:
A guitar shop near me has a guitar in stock that I'd be tempted to pick up if the price was right. It's a brand new guitar, and the shop has had it nearly two years. Yes, TWO YEARS! :o
In that time, the guitar has not moved from its original sticker price of £2399. This is a bit more than other shops were selling this limited edition model for, and one shop recently sold the same model for £1799. I know of one other that sold a while ago for £1899.
So, ever the opportunist, I called into the shop at the weekend to see if there was a deal to be had. I offered my PRS McCarty Korina as a trade-in and was told they weren't interested in it even though they are a PRS dealer. Fair enough if they didn't think they could sell it quickly, but the guitar I was interested in has been there for two years remember....
So I asked if I could raise the cash instead, what's the best price they can do given that it's been there so long. What did they say?
We'll do it for £2299 :?
OK, I know it's business and they need to make money. But the shop in question has let go half of its sales workforce over the last 12 months or so, and it seems to be doing a LOT less business than it once did. In these times, with stock that's been sat there so long, would it not make sense to shift it and have some sort of turnover?
Rant over :P
-
Soundsgreat? I've never had much luck getting them to move on prices. What were you after?
-
Part of it is psychology, not just business methodology.
People arent very good at evaluating loss Vs gain. That goes for when they're in business as well. In the case that you have something thats basically worthless (a guitar thats been on the shelf for 2 years that your competition are selling at a much lower price) then you see what you previously invested in that thing as value held, and dont tend to choose to 'lose' that for an immediate gain that doesnt measure up to your percieved value of it (and therefore what you would hope to get for it). i.e. some people wont go for the purely practical and rational 'a couple of hundred profit is better than it never selling and just being dead cash tied up in a bit of wood' because they see that as a loss of what they think that they could/should get for it.
-
Is that the top bound CS esquire Dave?
-
I wonder if some of it isn't also down to some shop owners failing to move with the times and not realising that consumers have much closer to "perfect knowledge" than they did in the pre-internet days.
In days of yore if a guitar shop owner told me that a Squier Strat was £250 then I'd have to assume that it was so since finding out where other guitar shops close to me was next to impossible as there was only the one in Yellow Pages. Most of the guitar mags had ads with "£Call" next to all the prices too which didn't help.
Nowadays there's no way I'd buy a new non-specialist guitar on Denmark Street because 30 seconds of Google shows me that a twenty minute train ride gets me to Guildford and Anderton's who thrash any of them on price. I suspect that there are some guitar shop owners who haven't figured this out yet and thus think that eventually someone gullible enough will wander in, assume their price is a fair one, and cough up the money. Which won't happen.
-
Is that the top bound CS esquire Dave?
Yeah, cut to the chase! I was wondering what guitar it was too.
(Have you started working for a merchant bank, by the way, Dave? :P )
-
Yeah, cut to the chase!
:D
It is a bit of an odd way to do business. I really don't understand why some shops insist on charging the RRP - is it just laziness? If it is the guitar I think it is GV sold me mine (now Dave's) for £1899. I assume they still made a profit on it as well! Very bad form for a retailer to only offer £100 off! GV gave a £100 discount to me when I bought mine (now Dave's!) even though it had only been in stock a few weeks and they had a potential buyer coming back in to look at it again.
-
You guys know me too well :lol:
Yep, it's the black Top Bound Esquire that's the sister guitar to the Lake Placid Blue model I bought from Ian. If that makes sense!
Mine really works for me as a live guitar, so if I could find another from the run of 100 at a reasonable price I'd pick it up.......
-
If I had a guitar shop near Twinfan, I'd have a photo of him behind the desk and the staff would be ordered to roll out a red carpet, have a bit of a fanfare and make him a cup of tea.
He could single handedly keep me in business for 6 months :D
-
I suspect that there are some guitar shop owners who haven't figured this out yet and thus think that eventually someone gullible enough will wander in, assume their price is a fair one, and cough up the money. Which won't happen.
There is an element of "a bird in the hand..." though, if you try a guitar and it feels like "the one" you may be prepared to pay a premium.
But basically I agree, I don't even go to Denmark Street (except maybe to window-shop), I get on a train and go to Guitar Village or Andertons or somewhere.
-
Well it's a free market. Probably they are fed up by people wanting the price from somewhere they had seen on the internet. Maybe he likes the guitar himself and made a vow that IF he let it go then not below RRP?
Maybe he thinks of it like a stock option. He has already held it for 2 years, so he invested not only his purchase price, but also 2 years of shop space, so it's even more expensive to him :)
But hey, Dave, you have enough guitars, why not just stop buying any? :D
-
(Have you started working for a merchant bank, by the way, Dave? :P )
Hmmm... I work for a merchant bank, and there are no expensive guitars for me...
:(
-
(Have you started working for a merchant bank, by the way, Dave? :P )
Hmmm... I work for a merchant bank, and there are no expensive guitars for me...
:(
Yeah, I do appreciate that not everyone who works in banking is rolling in dough. My brother works for RBS...
-
Is't there one hanging in PMT in Manchester as well? I could have sworn I saw an top bound esquire there, however it may have been a custom, my old memory is not what it used to be.
-
But hey, Dave, you have enough guitars, why not just stop buying any? :D
I tried, but I can't. I enjoy exploring the options!
I've narrowed it down a lot though. There are smaller and smaller numbers of guitars I would actually buy.
-
Mine really works for me as a live guitar, so if I could find another from the run of 100 at a reasonable price I'd pick it up.......
and £2299 is really pushing the bounds of reasonable! Personallyl I thought £1899 was a little too much for it. I know it's a limited run and that is probably why it cost more - presumably because they had to re-tool for that specific run. It is a one pick up guitar though and is the most basic Fender shape there is!
-
Very interesting thread here so I'll listen and learn.
One question though....
Have you sold your bike yet Dave? Mmmm? :P
-
RRP is £2399. So excluding VAT that's £2041.70.
Not knowing what they have in Fenders, lets assume a 20% margin (I'm more than likely way off here but maybe one of the guitar shop workers can fill us in on Fender dealer prices) which means there's £408.34 in that guitar for them and it stands them in at £1633.36. Now with the 17.5% of VAT on that it comes to £1919.20. I'd also assume that it's theirs as I can't see Fender UK letting them have it on consignment for that long, if indeed that is how it works in the music shop trade.
So if another shop sold one on for £1799, I'd be asking, just how much do they have in them? Did they sell it for a loss, doubtful? Did they sell if for a small amount releasing the money they had tied up in it for something else? Who knows...
I know it's cashflow that kills businesses quicker than anything else so I have to assume that Soundsgreat have bags of it to spare. Maybe that's why they're tight when it comes to making the most out of their paid for stock.
-
RRP is £2399. So excluding VAT that's £2041.70.
Not knowing what they have in Fenders, lets assume a 20% margin (I'm more than likely way off here but maybe one of the guitar shop workers can fill us in on Fender dealer prices) which means there's £408.34 in that guitar for them and it stands them in at £1633.36. Now with the 17.5% of VAT on that it comes to £1919.20. I'd also assume that it's theirs as I can't see Fender UK letting them have it on consignment for that long, if indeed that is how it works in the music shop trade.
So if another shop sold one on for £1799, I'd be asking, just how much do they have in them? Did they sell it for a loss, doubtful? Did they sell if for a small amount releasing the money they had tied up in it for something else? Who knows...
I know it's cashflow that kills businesses quicker than anything else so I have to assume that Soundsgreat have bags of it to spare. Maybe that's why they're tight when it comes to making the most out of their paid for stock.
A CS Fender with an RRP of £2399 sold at £1799 would likely be sold at a loss in my experience or at trade+VAT, but I obviously no longer have instant access to archived trade prices with the loss of my job.
There's a lot of feeling in the industry that profit has become a dirty word, there is very, very little profit for retailers in ANY popular musical instruments (might be different with classical stuff, I've no idea) since internet selling and big, dominant shops with strong distributor relationships have decimated prices. And now people expect to be able to buy products at 25% off.
-
nfe, we agree again!
I know this is a position for many in the retail business.. If you want to be able to walk into a real shop and play/take away an instument that day, you have to let the shop make some damn money.
Or pretty soon... No more shop.
-
I don't think selling the guitar at £1899, the same price Ian paid, would result in a loss. When Ian bought my Esquire it was a new model and had only been on release for a few months. Guitar Village can't have been in a crazy mad rush to sell it, so they must have made money on it. I think the RRP, according to the Sounds Great sticker, is £2699(!)
Have you sold your bike yet Dave? Mmmm? :P
The private reg has been transferred to my car, I'm waiting on the new number plate to be ready (ordered last week, they send away for them and it should be here in a few days). I have the updated V5.
I'll be applying for a tax disc from April 1st, and the bike will be advertised as soon as I have the disc :)
So no, but it wasn't as simple as just sticking an advert up! :lol:
-
Man, you should check out the used car market.
I've seen cars advertised for twice of what they're actually worth but they rather see the car rust away than take a couple of hundred off.
Part of it is greed. Being scared of losing a bit every once in a while on an investment.
Sometimes they figure it only takes one idiot who's willing to pay that price.
-
How long until that idiot arrives though? The business could fold before then...
-
How long until that idiot arrives though?
Sorry... what was that? I'm a bit busy at the moment :lol: :lol:
-
Eugh they've changed their site. http://www.soundsgreatmusic.com/products/6972/6788/fender-50-s-top-bound-esquire-.aspx
-
They've only done that recently then!
It's awful.
-
Their site wasn't brilliant, but at least it was a bit different. Now it looks more of a generic internet-retailer site, like Dawsons, Digital Village or something.
-
Eugh they've changed their site. http://www.soundsgreatmusic.com/products/6972/6788/fender-50-s-top-bound-esquire-.aspx
OMFG is that seriously the guitar you're looking at???
Christing pants that's hideous. You need your head examining, Twinfan! I *might* consider accepting that if you paid me £2299, but there's no way it'd be coming into the house. Straight to the tip where that thing belongs.
I feel violated.
-
It gets better http://www.soundsgreatmusic.com/pages/6959/about-us.aspx play the vid. It's like one of those come to Clethorpes for your summer holidays videos you used to see in the 70s and 80s.
-
If I had a guitar shop near Twinfan, I'd have a photo of him behind the desk and the staff would be ordered to roll out a red carpet, have a bit of a fanfare and make him a cup of tea.
He could single handedly keep me in business for 6 months :D
:lol:
-
my local guitar shops annoy me too. There is two of them and occasionally i need strings in a rush so pop into town. One was closed when i went down (it was a wednesday), they charge £4.99 for a set of strings... the exact same set in the other shop were £6.50. the shops are no more than 300m apart
i know its minor compared to the esquire thing but it really bugs me
-
It gets better http://www.soundsgreatmusic.com/pages/6959/about-us.aspx play the vid. It's like one of those come to Clethorpes for your summer holidays videos you used to see in the 70s and 80s.
That's my Fano on the wall at 0.07! Must be an old video :lol:
-
I'm with you roobubba but i do love fenders, how anyone would pay more than a couple of ton for that heap is beyond me... maybe the shop on reflection want to do the right thing and keep it out of circulation!no offence relic lovers
-
It gets better http://www.soundsgreatmusic.com/pages/6959/about-us.aspx play the vid. It's like one of those come to Clethorpes for your summer holidays videos you used to see in the 70s and 80s.
:lol: It's like one of those scratchy old local cinema adverts - "The New Gulshan Tandoori - a taste of India, just round the corner from this theatre!"
-
HA .. sounds exactly like the shops here..
one of them has one of those 25th anniversary Ibanez RG's on the wall .. for .. i dont know how long actually .. when were they released? couple of years ago i guess. well, i think it's THE ONLY ONE ... IN THE WORLD, that never sold.. cos the price is MSRP. and they wont budge. even though most sold for half or 2/3rds the most, of what the pricetag in the store is. they will at the most, give you 5% if you buy cash.. and you have to like it.
some idiot recently bought a Jackson DK2 + case. he paid 800€ for it. retard
-
Pah! They've made the store look very different to how it usually looks
I've checked the video 3 times and they appear to have moved my bed and Shobet's dog basket out of the corner
Seriously though, they don't differentiate on price and don't pretend to.
I have asked them bluntly why they won't drop their price a bit and they always say their business model runs on customer service and not price. I think they still have some very loyal customers.
Generally their stock is pretty good.
They aren't overly expensive with everything. For amps and pedals I find they have been much more flexible on the prices.
I have had my paws on that Tele Dave. I've got to say it's ok, but that's all. Some of the non custom shop ones play better
-
I have asked them bluntly why they won't drop their price a bit and they always say their business model runs on customer service and not price. I think they still have some very loyal customers.
I'd tend to think that if more retailers followed this idea (which is certainly what the majority of small music shops feel, if you read Mi Pro) it'd be far better for the consumer in the long run.
But we've a long way to go into the plummeting price:service ration before people start to think paying a bit extra is worthwhile. Which is a great shame.
-
I can relate to the concept of customer service with Mrs 38th's shop.We are under constant pressure from large retailers and so try to stay ahead by being a niche shop. Having said that, we had one item in our shop that was on the shelf for years and I said to Mrs 38th to discount it and get shot as it had become "dead money". She did sell it soon after. We didn't lose nor did we gain much. I'm too tired to think of what point I am trying to make except that you have to make a realistic decision at some point to shift something that hasn't sold.If people see the same stock there year after year they lose respect and assume that it is cheaper elsewhere even if it isn't.
-
I have asked them bluntly why they won't drop their price a bit and they always say their business model runs on customer service and not price. I think they still have some very loyal customers.
It's a great concept, but in practice I find that most places which claim to offer "better customer service" don't actually deliver it. They may have more specialised/diverse stock than run-of-the-mill places, but the actual customer service is exactly the same.
A number of shops used to say, for example, that "every guitar sold gets a new set of strings and is set up to your personal taste" - but I've never actually been offered that service.
Even if the service is better, is it really worth an extra 3 or 4 hundred quid?
I think this is a bit like those "dying High Street" stories. Everyone says they want traditional local butchers, grocers etc but in reality they shop at that big Tesco outside town because it's cheaper and more convenient.
-
^ agreed. I'm not paying a lot more money for something which has been lying in the shop for 2 years (and which feels like it) rather than buying blind online (where it's probably new and boxed), because of some vague offer of "better service". I will pay slightly more (I remember someone on another forum saying something like 5% or £50, whichever is smaller, and that's about right) for the convenience of buying locally, mainly because it's a lot easier to return it if something goes wrong. EDIT: I'm also wary of this supposed excellent service when i catch them out telling me stuff which I know to be incorrect- either they're lying to get the sale, which doesn't exactly make me want to give them any money, or they're incompetent, in which case I'd be a bit scared to leave them with any of my gear, good service or no.
agreed, that is, except for tesco. Its food is horrible, and the smaller guys, while often not amazing, are kings compared to tesco. And tesco's not particularly cheap, anyway. the "finest" range appears to be virtually the same as the standard range in fancier packaging, for twice the price, and it all tastes synthetic. granted tesco is more convenient as it's all under the one roof, but it's not terribly convenient when you get the food home and realise it sucks.
-
^^
My sentiments exactly. Which is why I no longer get any guitars from them.
If they dropped their prices just a bit I'd buy loads more from them
I do buy pedals and amps though; when I'm looking.
I want them to stay in business as they have a lot of nice high end stuff that they will let me try.
-
Plus they never make us $%&#ing tea when we go there Matt. They've had several £ks out of me.
I still think that shops that are willing to negotiate are far more attractive to me that someone who offers customer service to me. What does that mean anyway, smiling when I buy something, remembering my name?
I'd far prefer to buy something from someone like World Guitars in Stonehouse who actively engage you when you walk in, you can have a chat with them, they'll take the piss, but at the end of the day make you feel like you're getting a decent deal. Oh and they make a decent cup of tea.
-
I'd far prefer to buy something from someone like World Guitars in Stonehouse who actively engage you when you walk in, you can have a chat with them, they'll take the piss, but at the end of the day make you feel like you're getting a decent deal. Oh and they make a decent cup of tea.
Guitar Village do this as well - great bunch of people, very down to earth and don't make you feel overly watched when playing.
-
I like Guitar Village too. And I was very impressed with Mark Hopkin at Guitars4You when buying my Mira X last week - extremely helpful and nice chap.
(But both those shops have good customer service and good prices)
-
Then i guess my shop is on the right track :D I've been manager of this small music shop since 2006 and that's pretty much what i strive to do. give good prices, good service, be negotiable on stuff that can be negotiated (some companies give horrible markup, some have actually a good markup on the MSRP and you can do very good deals to customers). and hunt for deals.
since i handle most purchase orders i have the opportunity to really shop for some screaming deals from the suppliers. we just received a shipment of entry level guitars for kids and beginners that we can do more than 50% off the retail price. this is a case of ''I'll have ten of each color'' except it was more like 2 of each as we're not that big still :D
I think alot of biggers chains are just lazy and don't bother looking at every little discounted list they can find.
best deal i found so far for me and customers was a graphtech supercharger tune-o-matic kit with 4mm post that i can sell for 10$ instead of the 149$ MSRP and still get a damn good profit. i do beleive that 4mm don't have as much demand as the 6mm ones, but damn, i may as well sell the each individual saddle for 4 bucks each and the tusq nut for 10 bucks :D. either way i found it was a good way of stocking parts for cheap.
ANYWAY. my point is... i wish i could stock all that high-end gear in my shop. seems like the bigger dudes don't know how to sell that stuff. turn over dead weight and bring on the new stuff i say. even if you sell one or two items at a loss, that's an expense to add on when you pay your government taxes at the end of the year. nothing hurts me more that seeing a guitar still hanging on my wall from 2 years ago.
-
I have asked them bluntly why they won't drop their price a bit and they always say their business model runs on customer service and not price. I think they still have some very loyal customers.
I'd like to know exactly what the customer service entails, and why it causes a 25% price hike. Unless they're providing a room full of Playboy Bunnies for the evening, it can't be worth it.
-
if it was me I would figure out what the maximum I would be willing to pay was and go in the shop with that amount of cash. Seeing the money may just persuade the boss to think again, especially if he knows you will walk away.
-
I like Guitar Village too. And I was very impressed with Mark Hopkin at Guitars4You when buying my Mira X last week - extremely helpful and nice chap.
(But both those shops have good customer service and good prices)
yeah, see that's the thing. Does this supposed "good customer service" cost anything? I'm not talking about online stores, obviously if their warehouse is out in the middle of nowhere they have lower overheads (plus need fewer members of staff etc.), but I mean the kind of service you get in a shop which claims to have good service versus one which claims not to have. Does it cost anything to be nice to the customers etc.?
I should point out that my previous post was not in relation to sounds great, it was just in general (i've never been to sounds great)- there are also some good shops here too, which do treat you welll; often their prices are good, too. In my experience, the shops advertising good service etc. often have the worst service :lol:
-
When I talked about good customer service, I wasn't talking about being friendly and giving people cups of tea. I couldn't count the number of times I or collegues have gone and engineered a customers band to help them out with new gear they've bought, or set up someone's home studio. Neither are really relevant if we're purely talking about guitars, but those are the things I think of when I talk about good customer service, and I think they're worth paying for.
-
Generally the service is good at Sounds Great. Just not several hundred pounds good.
Dmoney has had a bad experience if I recall.
-
When I talked about good customer service, I wasn't talking about being friendly and giving people cups of tea. I couldn't count the number of times I or collegues have gone and engineered a customers band to help them out with new gear they've bought, or set up someone's home studio. Neither are really relevant if we're purely talking about guitars, but those are the things I think of when I talk about good customer service, and I think they're worth paying for.
that's true, and it probably is.
Thing is, though, I don't need that. All i need is for the shop people to be nice, to let me try what i want (at a reasonable volume), and to at least attempt to get fairly close to "good" prices. Some of the shops here do that, but some don't.
-
Generally the service is good at Sounds Great. Just not several hundred pounds good.
Dmoney has had a bad experience if I recall.
word!
I had the worst experience. I haven't forgotten either! Never Forgive, Never Forget.
I've heard of a another dude or two who've had trouble with sounds great. They didn't tell me what the issue was though.
To be fair, I've also heard one pretty good story about them too. However, I'll never buy anything from them again.
I was looking into a 2 channel Soldanos recently, Hot Rod 50+ or something, and since they are the only UK importers, its difficult to avoid using them... but in the end I came up with a new plan (NAD on the horizon!)
But now i've just totally given up on ever buying anything from them ever again.
-
If the only thing standing in the way of you getting this guitar for 1900 or less is their stubborn mindset, and not cost, why not try ringing them and asking if they'll sell it for what you want to pay, every single day for the next 3 months? Don't budge or change your offer, and see how long it takes them to crack. Ethical? Probably not. I've never tried it but its worth a shot...
-
I don't want it THAT much :lol:
I was just surprised at the lack of excitement from them to sell a 2 year old guitar!!!
-
I don't think the service is that good at Sounds Great. They always treat me like I've got a disease...maybe I just don't look wealthy enough, despite me having bought a few guitars, amps and posh pedals there.
Not bought anything there for a while and never will now. :D
-
To put things in perspective: we're talking about two planks of wood bolted together.
Were the trees cut down for that wood planted by the founding fathers or declared holy by someone or something?
Is that guitar made by God himself? Was it made on the thighs of virgins instead of a work bench?
-
I've touched it.
-
I've touched it.
I've been dreaming about you touching it.
-
when in rome
-
when in rome
touch Italians?
-
I just came out of music ground in London.
Went in for a matched quad of el34s
"Do you have a matched quad of el34s"
"No, what do you mean? Like matched... matched..."
"To each other? Yes"
"I know what you mean! You mean like groove tubes or er ruby tubes"
"No I mean any that have been tested and matched"
"So you want a matched pair"
"Actually don't worry, I'll come back another time"
Sweet!
-
looks like they're selling that Tele online too Dave, £2299 buy it now...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fender-Custom-Shop-50s-Top-Bound-Esquire-Relic-Black_W0QQitemZ190382178046QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item2c53a97efe#ht_7088wt_939
anyone know how much seller fees Ebay would charge and of course how much Paypal would take off if this guitar sold and the buyer paid with Paypal???? - could be a good argument to getting the price down nearer £2000
-
Exactly my thoughts Ian.
Can't be arsed dealing with them any more, plus I've spent up buying that other guitar this week!
-
anyone know how much seller fees Ebay would charge and of course how much Paypal would take off if this guitar sold and the buyer paid with Paypal???? - could be a good argument to getting the price down nearer £2000
The seller fees are relatively small on high-value items, they'll be about £70 if it sells.
Listing fees will be pretty much negligible, because they'll have already paid a monthly fee for having an eBay shop.
PayPal fees will be around 3%, so another £70, maybe less if they regularly have a high value of transactions.
So overall probably no more than £150, they'd still receive £2,150.
-
still seems a bit ridiculous that they'd rather sell it to some random dude on ebay who might mess them around for £2150 (assuming your sums are correct) than sell it to dave for the same price, who isn't going to mess them around and who was at the shop with cash in hand (and who I assume has bought from them before, it's a guitar shop within 200 miles of his house, after all ;) ).
-
Yeah, agreed, but they're obviously determined to stick to their "principles".... :lol:
-
:lol: their loss, i guess. EDIT: well, dave's too if he wants the guitar :(
-
Some good points here. Yes, perhaps you should pay a little extra for good service, but guitar shops have a pretty poor rep on customer service. Even then, how much should you pay? I remember once going with a friend to look at an LP standard in a local shop. It was about 2004 I think. It was a 2001 spec LP, but they'd got the RRP for a 2003 spec on it (which was several hundred pounds more). I think they'd got £1,899 on it, and at the time people like GAK and Andertons were offering 2003 specs for £1,200. So, this guitar was at least 2 years old, end of line, and overpriced for that model. They'd only come down about £100 on it! Needless to say it remained unsold, and I believe was still on the wall 3 years later when the shop closed down.
The internet is here to stay, shops need to figure out how they're going to continue alongside it. Offering a basic £30 setup with new strings which it only needs because it's been on the wall for 6 months and played by 20 teenagers every Saturday really isn't going to cut it when you're charging an extra £150 for it. If you buy a Dean, Washburn, PRS or some others, they come decently set up out the box anyway. Lack of range is another problem. When a shop's only got 5 guitars I'd maybe consider playing, the internet is much more appealing, and really what kind of service can they offer me if there's no real decisions for me to make?
-
^ yeah, pretty much. I understand it's hard to compete, I never said it wasn't, but I didn't make the rules, and the shops are pretty shamelessly looking out for their own interests, so I don't see why I'm the churl if I look out for my own.